PLD emnity VS. Medica spam.

I've had no problems tanking any content skill or gear wise until I did Garuda Ex a short while ago with a WHM. Now I will throw down some basic PLD knowledge to start so people know:

TL;DR, skip to the line with >>>>> if you don't care about PLD mechanics.

While shield oath does increase enmity by 30%, it also reduces dmg done by 20%. Only a few PLD abilities have what is called an enmity modifier. That means some abilities do more enmity x dmg than others.

Most PLDs will pull with shield lob, then fast blade > savage blade > rage of halone. Some will add in off the GCD abilities like circle of win and spirits within. I have mine macro'd to my rotation with a /wait line so it goes off between the GCDs. If I need to not have them macro'd (waking up sleeping mobs with circle of win, silencing with spirits within on T2 for trash, etc) then I have the base abilities I can swap on my bars.

So the enmity modifiers, right? Shield Lob, Spirits Within, and Fast Blade do not have modifiers. So with shield oath up, they do dmg x 130%. Abilities with modifiers (they say additional effect: increased enmity") will do more threat. Those are Savage Blade (x6), and Rage of Halone (x10). There is more theory crafted math somewhere with more numbers but this isn't the point.

>>>>> The first ability we use to generate threat and start our combo, even with off the GCD abilities, does not generate enough threat to keep aggro off of you if you have Regen + Medica II HoT + Spamming Cure II or Medica AS I'M PULLING. Keyword is right at the pull. Not 2 seconds after or before. A crit heal will seal the deal with you dying unless I provoke but that has a 40 second cooldown. Oh, and since a lot of people don't seem to understand provoke, I will explain that as well:

It puts us at +1 enmity over whoever had the highest enmity when it hit. So we also have to hit the mob right after we do it. Know what that means? It means it's like starting the pull over again but with everyone already engaged with dots, hots, healing, and attacks. If the mob pulled over to you and is out of our melee range, we have to shield lob and try to get in range. Provoking does not immediately make you safe. If we provoke and you get a crit heal, well damnit, have fun.

There is no reason for this madness. Regen maybe to help ease the initial dmg but spamming cures as I'm pulling when no one has taken dmg is a no-no. I have not established threat with my measly shield lob > fast blade > spirits within. This is not a skill issue. This is low enmity generation at the start that ramps up.

Once I've gotten in at least a savage blade and going into rage of halone, threat is solid. A fully combo'd rage of halone produces ridiculous threat.

The whole point of this is to better educate WHMs since they seem unaware that they also produce a metric ton of enmity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naxyr

So the enmity modifiers, right? Shield Lob, Spirits Within, and Fast Blade do not have modifiers. So with shield oath up, they do dmg x 130%. Abilities with modifiers (they say additional effect: increased enmity") will do more threat. Those are Savage Blade (x6), and Rage of Halone (x10).

---

Fail. If you want to talk about game mechanics, please research more, Shield Lob will generate about 3x enmity, same as Savage Blade, it's also write in skill description Additional Effect: Increased enmity

Also about the Medica problem when Garuda's Sisters spawn, either you tank style is not good enough (you don't prepare Halone combo when sisters spawn) or healer don't know use Shoud of Saints when they got mob aggro from tank. Only need one of them know their roles and problem will be solve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greenhope

Fail. If you want to talk about game mechanics, please research more, Shield Lob will generate about 3x enmity, same as Savage Blade, it's also write in skill description Additional Effect: Increased enmity

Also about the Medica problem when Garuda's Sisters spawn, either you tank style is not good enough (you don't prepare Halone combo when sisters spawn) or healer don't know use Shoud of Saints when they got mob aggro from tank. Only need one of them know their roles and problem will be solve.

---

This /10char

My bad on the shield lob. Not about research. I knew that but derped out. I was frustrated when I posted.

However I didn't mention when the sisters spawn. There's a delay when they go active anyway. My point was on the pull when healers spam large heals for no reason.

Snap hate on PLD is pretty simple. Prepare Savage/Halone, experience will help you there. But sisters spawning is not random and its not instant. When you see "Die,Die,Die" your next action needs to be swift or if swift is prepped it needs to be savage. Run to where your sister spawns do the next action in the combo (savage or halone), SW, then run to your position. A shield lob may be necessary as you move but most of the time its not.

I'd personally prefer my WHMs to be aggressive cure spammers. PLD has ample emn tools and a dead DD normally makes things hairy.

I occasionally see whm using medica 2 like sch uses succor before the pull. Whm have enough aggro problems as is, they shouldn't intentionally be starting a fight with overheals ticking away on everyone.

The worst in my experience is Titan HM and the T2 enrage. (though I think my food fell off when tanking T2 that time and lost accuracy). SO many tanks lose aggro to whm in Titan HM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naxyr

My bad on the shield lob. Not about research. I knew that but derped out. I was frustrated when I posted.

However I didn't mention when the sisters spawn. There's a delay when they go active anyway. My point was on the pull when healers spam large heals for no reason.

---

The bad knowledge about Shield Lob will lead you rarely use Shield Lob after first pull, that's wrong! A good and exp. tank in Garuda EX will know when sisters spawn so a Halone (5x enimity) on sister then shield lob while running to tank position that make even two Medica II from two WHM is nothing. It's also apply in Tornado phase when OT must grab one sister and spiny same time, with Halone on a sister, you will have a lots time to go and find where spiny come, provoke and Shield Lob it then switch back target to sister and shield lob again until you ran into tank position.

The other tank fail in Garuda is most tanker thinking only call one Provoke is enough to get back Spiny's aggro and don't know Spiny mechanic is auto generate enmity on first target, if you don't throw a shield lob/tomahawk after Provoke, Spiny will get back to first target after a tick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greenhope

The bad knowledge about Shield Lob will lead you rarely use Shield Lob after first pull, that's wrong! A good and exp. tank in Garuda EX will know when sisters spawn so a Halone (5x enimity) on sister then shield lob while running to tank position that make even two Medica II from two WHM is nothing. It's also apply in Tornado phase when OT must grab one sister and spiny same time, with Halone on a sister, you will have a lots time to go and find where spiny come, provoke and Shield Lob it then switch back target to sister and shield lob again until you ran into tank position.

---

SO again I say, nothing in that post is reference to when sister's spawn. It was in reference to before a pull on any fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naxyr

The first ability we use to generate threat and start our combo, even with off the GCD abilities, does not generate enough threat to keep aggro off of you if you have Regen + Medica II HoT + Spamming Cure II or Medica AS I'M PULLING. Keyword is right at the pull. Not 2 seconds after or before. A crit heal will seal the deal with you dying unless I provoke but that has a 40 second cooldown.

---

Since no one seems to have read the post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

the T2 enrage. (though I think my food fell off when tanking T2 that time and lost accuracy). SO many tanks lose aggro to whm in Titan HM.

---

You don't tank during Enrage. Sword Oath and DPS best you can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirTaint

You don't tank during Enrage. Sword Oath and DPS best you can.

---

Well I'm a war so no sword oath for me lol. ADS doesn't even have an auto-attack? I don't know that my food fell off for that fight, I just know it fell off at some point because I noticed the misses early on during a restart. Thinking about it afterwards made me think maybe the food fell off during that fight and that's why I couldn't keep aggro off the whm even using berserk and unchained. Might have also been due to the path we took, would slashing resistance make that big of a difference?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Well I'm a war so no sword oath for me lol. ADS doesn't even have an auto-attack? I don't know that my food fell off for that fight, I just know it fell off at some point because I noticed the misses early on during a restart. Thinking about it afterwards made me think maybe the food fell off during that fight and that's why I couldn't keep aggro off the whm even using berserk and unchained. Might have also been due to the path we took, would slashing resistance make that big of a difference?

---

ADS has auto-attack during enrage but it's so minuscule that with the AOE healing going on, you don't need Defiance/Shield Oath. Slashing resistance don't make that much of a difference. Though, you should aim for high enough accuracy without food or make sure your food is up when you get to the boss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemon8or

ADS has auto-attack during enrage but it's so minuscule that with the AOE healing going on, you don't need Defiance/Shield Oath. Slashing resistance don't make that much of a difference. Though, you should aim for high enough accuracy without food or make sure your food is up when you get to the boss.

---

I can meet the acc requirement without food but I wanted to equip the best gear I had. Will be much easier once I can get some of those Allagan accessories.

Thanks for clarifying ADS, though. Just started running it with the FC.

If you're doing enrage T2 you have plenty of time to put some food on before the fight. And as has been stated, once he enrages, turn off defiance/shield oath and do deeps. Tanking doesn't matter once it hits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vactus

If you're doing enrage T2 you have plenty of time to put some food on before the fight. And as has been stated, once he enrages, turn off defiance/shield oath and do deeps. Tanking doesn't matter once it hits.

---

Yes I know, I ate around 10k worth of food that night. But we ran it so many times before getting a kill, they are all blurry. I don't know if it was the food or not that particular run, or just the whm pulling craptons of aggro from healing her ass off lol

WHM do tend to pull aggro after a while if your DPS is low and they don't know to use Shroud/you don't have enough of an enmity lead. Not that big a deal though, you can provoke it right back after the Enrage move, land a Butcher's Block or even switch back to Defiance -> Infuriate -> Unchained -> Berserk or never get out of tanking stance if your dps is high.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naxyr

SO again I say, nothing in that post is reference to when sister's spawn. It was in reference to before a pull on any fight.

---

You mention about pulling but if you already prepare the best combo Halone when adds spawn (in this case Garuda EX or even Titan EX, which you already known where and when the adds will spawn), then you will not worry about healer can steal your aggro while you're pulling them (I don't think healer too dumb to spam Medica II repeatly when old Medica II effect still active). The only case I always tell healer be careful when cast Regen + Medica II only in CoB T4 where adds spawn too far from each other and easily target Healer and kill them in a sec, but if healer know where to stand (usually in center, behind OT) then take aggro back with some Flash/Overpower is easily too.

btw why you dont tell them use Shoud of Saints if they always steal your aggro while pulling. DF need teamwork, if someone cause trouble to other, please tell them instead go to forum and rant everything that don't make them better (I think 90% bad healer will not go to this forum and learn how to heal better...).

The point I want to say is either you must play the tank better (prepare Halone combo, throw shield lob repeatly while pulling mobs to tank position...) or you must tell healer in-game that you can't handle aggro fast enough so they must careful while cast any skill generate too much enmity.

Definitely not a good tank player... Wanna know how to improve and be better? Always blame yourself when you lose hate, and ask what can you do to improve that? What can be adjust on your skill routine? What about the timing of cool downs? Before the adds appear should I make sure my OGCD and buff are up? So and so. Never blame the healer for stealing hate, only blame them if they are not keeping you alive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Messenger

Definitely not a good tank player... Wanna know how to improve and be better? Always blame yourself when you lose hate, and ask what can you do to improve that? What can be adjust on your skill routine? What about the timing of cool downs? Before the adds appear should I make sure my OGCD and buff are up? So and so. Never blame the healer for stealing hate, only blame them if they are not keeping you alive.

---

A dead healer is as good as a dead tank.. They need to control their enmity as much as the tanks do. There is zero reason for WHM to spam Medica/Medica 2 at the start of a battle. This is more to do with game design than player style, the fact is WHM pulls a crap ton of aggro. So by your logic it's OK for them to make matters worse? If a good tank is supposed to maximize enmity generation then a good healer should be minimizing their own (especially the one with ridiculous enmity generation).

Im kinda lost of what you said lol. Tank has the skills and routine to generate and secure hate from a single or multiple aggro beforehand, they also have a defense buff skill to help the healers not to spam high tier cures. I don't see how WHM will grab a lot of hate and aggro if the Tank doesn't utilize those skills.

Now if we are looking at a scenario of the WHM being a dumbo and just spam cures when its not needed, then you need to communicate with that player and give advice.

I'm with Whiskey Bravo here in that a good healer can learn to reduce the amount of hate they generate to form synergy with the tank. The party should be working together instead of one person shouldering the "what can I do better even if my allies don't perform at 100%"?

E.g. A White Mage using Benediction on a tank as the opening heal is a great way to steal threat. Or a white mage deciding to use a Divine Seal Medica II followed by a Swiftcast Medica II. This tactic is highly inefficient and a tank shouldn't have to make up for the unnecessary enmity this causes and a bard shouldn't have to make up for the MP loss caused by that level of MP consumption.

Edit: We're on the same page, message was posted while I was posted.

A WHM doesn't need to cast Medica at the beginning of a fight. The WHM could also be aware that he is pulling so much threat and pop Shroud of Saints cause he is being a dum-dumb.

My heals pull a lot of aggro, but as WHM you don't need to spam medica (only one is needed after the whole party is damaged (then the other healer does their aoe heal)).

I think this is a problem with a bad healer that panic heals instead of healing properly.

Wouldn't this make more sense to post in the healer role forum? You're preaching to the converted here, in that we mostly all understand how much easier tanking is when healers don't prime enormous overheals for the start of pulls or right when adds drop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhaleBiologist

Wouldn't this make more sense to post in the healer role forum? You're preaching to the converted here, in that we mostly all understand how much easier tanking is when healers don't prime enormous overheals for the start of pulls or right when adds drop.

---

It's there too, don't worry lol

Recently I'm switched from my ilvl89 PLD to DPS class to farm ring from Garuda EX and most battle fail because off tank can't keep aggro Chirada in Tornado phase, (most bad tanker only call shield lob once or even Provoke when sister appear then ran straight to tank position, waiting sister come there and expect no one can steal his aggro) cause pt wipe so many times and abaddoned. Each times cause by a different healer or DPS steal aggro from tanker, I just wonder why the tanker blame other class instead blame himself didn't try his best rotations to keep aggro ?

Fight or flight > Shield lob > circle of scorn > spirits within > Flash > start combo/shield lob on your way to position.

Pld burst threat is very good and there is no reason for tanks to be losing agro unless they are bad or healers are stupid. In all the fights in current game I don't know of any where whm needs to be spaming heals like that before tanks have proper threat built on their targets.

stop complaining and find better healers

one thing I like to add is my rotations which is main pull> shield lob-circle of scorn- flash-rage of halone combo-fracture. tank swap same as my main pull but you provoke and anticipate your pull and have rage of halone ready if you can do that you will never loose hate

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rochetm

Fight or flight > Shield lob > circle of scorn > spirits within > Flash > start combo/shield lob on your way to position.

Pld burst threat is very good and there is no reason for tanks to be losing agro unless they are bad or healers are stupid. In all the fights in current game I don't know of any where whm needs to be spaming heals like that before tanks have proper threat built on their targets.

---

I forgot fight of flight that's great at helping pull hate when swaping or just main pulling big mobs like twin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Messenger

Definitely not a good tank player... Wanna know how to improve and be better? Always blame yourself when you lose hate, and ask what can you do to improve that? What can be adjust on your skill routine? What about the timing of cool downs? Before the adds appear should I make sure my OGCD and buff are up? So and so. Never blame the healer for stealing hate, only blame them if they are not keeping you alive.

---

This This This

If you have problems with getting hate on ruda ex sisters due to whm, tell them to get everyone topped off before they pop and get stoneskins on the tanks. that's what I do as whm, and I never have issues. having medica2 or regen up can be bad, though sometimes sisters pop right after a friction when we're mid-cast medica1 so there's not much we can do about that (unless healers spread out before the last friction).

Im not sure what the OP is trying to say. So the problem here is when a tank engages a boss? I have yet to see a WHM or SCH pre-cast medica II or succor or whatever ability they have.

If you are trying to inform healers, the healer forum would be a better spot. It seems more like a healer problem, not knowing that casting before the tank engages is bad news. It also amazes me if for example a WHM would have medica II up before the pull. Easily solvable: "hey whm, if we have medica II before the pull, you will get aggro".. Done deal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by abzoluut

Im not sure what the OP is trying to say. So the problem here is when a tank engages a boss? I have yet to see a WHM or SCH pre-cast medica II or succor or whatever ability they have.

---

It's not common but I did seen quite a few times before that healers casted regen/medica 2 on the tank/party before engaging and ended up the mobs/boss walloping the healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ooshima

It's not common but I did seen quite a few times before that healers casted regen/medica 2 on the tank/party before engaging and ended up the mobs/boss walloping the healer.

---

It's common practice in other MMOs to HoT up people before the pull because overhealing (which most pre-combat HoTs end up being) doesn't generate enmity; it doesn't work like that in ARR because overhealing *does* generate enmity in this game. While leveling or running low level content, I've run with plenty of healers that either spam Cure or throw out heals as soon as you've taken *any* damage (I ran with one healer that was throwing out 400-500 Cure whenever I'd taken all of 50 damage) because mp isn't really an issue and they think that they're not generating enmity.

Also, precasting Succor is a *good* thing because only the heal generates enmity; the shield (which is what you get with the precast) doesn't generate any enmity at all, even when it's consumed, which is just one of the reasons why SCHs are so friggin' amazing at aggro management.

Medica II spam isn't as bad as it used to be since they cut the HoT potency in half. The only real issue I've seen is that, now that the duration is 30 seconds, you're much more likely to see the tail end of a Medica II right when adds spawn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naxyr

The whole point of this is to better educate WHMs since they seem unaware that they also produce a metric ton of enmity.

---

If this is supposedly true, then why'd you post it in the TANK forums and not the Healers? But more to the point. Did it ever occur to you to just nicely ask the WHM to refrain from casting even Regen on you until you have established hate? Or ask them not to cast a Party AoE heal until the party actually takes damage?

Most healers (esp ones able/geared to do EX primals) aren't making these mistakes. Most healers don't cast Medica II at the beginning of a pull...and even a Regen thrown on the tank after a Shield lob on a Boss/tank has pulled boss into position isn't enough to actually pull hate.


Also, most Healers know how hate works/have little reason to cast a spell the first 10-15 seconds of the battle. DD's however....I have seen them go crazy, unloading every attack they have in their arsenal while the tank is still positioning the mob. (which incidentally usually =healers dropping big AoE cures near the beginning of the battle because now tank AND DD's are eating it)

So, unless every WHM you encounter is now suddenly casting Medica II at the very beginning of a battle, I think you can just assume this was one mis-informed WHM you could have nicely asked to hold back instead of making it sound like all WHM's have gone nuts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Messenger

Definitely not a good tank player... Wanna know how to improve and be better? Always blame yourself when you lose hate, and ask what can you do to improve that? What can be adjust on your skill routine? What about the timing of cool downs? Before the adds appear should I make sure my OGCD and buff are up? So and so. Never blame the healer for stealing hate, only blame them if they are not keeping you alive.

---

So you're saying a tank can out-aggro a medica spamming whm? I'm pretty sure anyone who's done turn2 enrage method would disagree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

It's common practice in other MMOs to HoT up people before the pull because overhealing (which most pre-combat HoTs end up being) doesn't generate enmity; it doesn't work like that in ARR because overhealing *does* generate enmity in this game.

---

That's interesting, since this is my first MMO :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

So you're saying a tank can out-aggro a medica spamming whm? I'm pretty sure anyone who's done turn2 enrage method would disagree.

---

In their enmity stance, against a single target? Yup.
Especially since the enmity changes in the 2.1 patch.

The tank needs to have a reasonable level of damage output so that the enmity combo's multiplier has something to work off, but that's usually not much of a problem.
The main problem used to be Medica 2's HoT, and that's been reduced pretty drastically.

I'm sure someone will throw detailed math at you if you want it, but IIRC it's basically ~3.2k possible Hate Potency (WHM) now compared to ~4.5k possible Hate Potency (Tank) in the space of 3 GCDs (not counting Divine Seal, Shroud or any of the Tank's off-GCD abilities or DPS buffs)

The only time I lose aggro is turn 2 enrage, which is trivial, and sometimes turn4 as MT with the first batch of clock works.
Once i had the dps realize to relax just a little, as they should save cooldowns for the first dread, it was much simpler.