Turn 5 Problems: Group is Unable to Smoothly Pass Phase 2

We keep wiping on Phase 2 and I wonder if we are doing something seriously wrong.

Right now, the off-tank stands with the garuda-egi, and the person with fireball runs there when targeted. Conflag, person runs to Twin, and the DPS kill it down. If conflag is up while someone has fireball, then that person will also run into conflag. It all seems easy, but in practice, it doesn't seem to be working.

Yes, there are people not running in time, but last night people became very frustrated when the same person who just got fireball would then get conflag, so he dies cause health was too low, or when conflag hits a healer, and then fireball also hits a healer, so now down 2 healers momentarily. After an hour of wiping like this, the group just pretty much gave up last night. Group's been making attempts at it for about 3 weeks now and we keep wiping at phase 2!

I'm worried the team will just stop trying turn 5 at all if things don't improve.

Please help :(

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

We keep wiping on Phase 2 and I wonder if we are doing something seriously wrong.

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bluntly, if you are dying then you are doing something wrong. That goes for any fight in this game.

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when the same person who just got fireball would then get conflag, so he dies cause health was too low

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This is a healer issue. This does happen and to lose a person because of "bad RNG" isn't appropriate. The healers (typically the WHM) should know who is about to get fireball and should have a heal landing on that person just after they take damage. A person getting fireballed then getting conflag is to be expected and prepared for.

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or when conflag hits a healer, and then fireball also hits a healer, so now down 2 healers momentarily.

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Two healers in a conflag is to be expected and you all should have a strategy for it. Most likely your tank needs to go into the conflag too

As Ticdup said above, this sounds like a healer issue. People who have been hit by a fireball should be healed immediately after it hits (as a WHM I start casting cure III on the group before Twintania even turns to them) because one of them may get conflag right after.

Our group has 2 separate groups (SCH+fairy+DDx2; WHM+OT+DDx2) for fireballs standing on different sides of Twintania. You could try if you find that easier.

2 healers going in conflag shouldn't be an issue as they shouldn't be up for long in the first place. In worst case scenario tank can run in the conflag.

Which formation are you doing for Phase 2? 3 on the left, 2 in the centre, 3 on the right? Or 4 on the left and 4 on the right?

I will also add this for your information as well:

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Originally Posted by juniglee

I believe all pets collectively count as 1 individual for Waxen Flash.

A bit more in-depth about Conflags:

- Every 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc. Conflag is considered a "slow Conflag". What this means is during the duration of these Conflags, another party member will get targeted by Fireball. If they then run inside the Conflag, it extends the duration of the current Conflag.
- Every 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc. Conflag is considered a "fast Conflag". Nobody will be targeted by Fireball during this time, so you won't have an opportunity to reset/extend the duration of the Conflag. This is the part where everyone needs to throw out their full DPS.
- Anyone who runs into the Conflag becomes Fettered (unable to move), and cannot be targeted. For this reason, the MT should run into the Conflags but only if their health is high enough. Twintania will not be able to attack them, which means healers can spend the time DPS-ing instead. Just be ready to top up the tank's health, as Twintania resumes attacking once the Conflag is down. The MT can also choose not to run in and DPS conflags instead. The MT should try and run in to evade Death Sentence however.
- Off-tanks should turn off their tanking stance during the Fireball/Conflag phase, as you want to be maximizing damage here.
- Make sure everyone's health is quite topped up, or they at least have a Regen on them. They will suffer Burn damage ticks while inside Conflag, and if their health drops to zero before the Conflag timer expires, the Conflag will still explode.
- A non-resetted/extended Conflag after Fireball hits 4 people lasts for roughly 15 seconds. The other option is to have 3 people take the damage, so that Conflag lasts longer but you'll have to be sure you have enough health for it. The duration of Conflag is inversely proportionate to the number of people the prior Fireball hit - the more people who get hit by Fireball, the shorter the duration of the Conflag.

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You have to look at it this way, 2 healers in the conflag is 4 dps out, so it should drop fast. Have tank run in as well. Precast cure 3 for whm, there should be plenty of time between fireball and conflag to heal. Also to confirm you're doing a 3 stack? Do you always survive that?

Also people not running in time, you need to not panic and keep a cool head to avoid mistakes like this. It takes a lot of practice to be this comfortable, calling it after an hour frustrated is probably the biggest reason why groups can't down twin. I've seen groups like this before and they go nowhere, even though it's a fight well tread you still need a bit of a progression mindset to get it on farm. You sit there for long sessions, and no one lets their frustration get the better of them. You can fix problems with player skill, but it's harder to fix an attitude that isn't conductive to learning.

One last thing, learning how to recover from mistakes is an important skill for this fight but also in general; you flush many possible clears down the toilet by calling a wipe too early. In all my clears only one was a "perfect" fight where everything went to script, and in my last 2 clears there were multiple deaths that we recovered from. It's a very long fight mechanic wise and chances are something will be unexpected. You need to deal with it, every t5 group does. Consistency in performance is also important, but mistakes happen. Your ability to recover is what determines how many mistakes you can make.

I pre-cast a big heal on the fireball person, I myself have been a target of a fireball followed by conflag and you need to be ready for that to happen.

As a scholar, it's greatly beneficial for you to save a stack or two for lustrate for situations like these. This strat heavily favors scholars because they can react quickly to healing. One thing you'll also want to do is make sure you have EOS's HOT up before the fireball hits. That will help immensely in HP recovery and should counteract the conflag DOT even if you can't top off that individual.

You want to use Surecast / Swiftcast to ensure your heals get off through Fireball interrupt. Precast Whispering Dawn and Sacred Soil.

Also, if you're having trouble with timing, you can delay or speed up the first phase. The timing on when you progress to phase 2 determines the timing of Conflag, Fireballs, and Death Sentence.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

Also, if you're having trouble with timing, you can delay or speed up the first phase. The timing on when you progress to phase 2 determines the timing of Conflag, Fireballs, and Death Sentence.

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How to do this exactly?

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Originally Posted by Thorauku

How to do this exactly?

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Thought phase 2 always started when Twin got to 85% HP? Then at 55% was Divebombs <.>

Make sure stoneskin(pld OT) or warrior -10%, succor and sacred soil is up before fireball. It helps with all the RNG.

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

Thought phase 2 always started when Twin got to 85% HP? Then at 55% was Divebombs <.>

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Yeah, you just have to push it there at right time (like you don't push Twin to divebombs if there's a conflag up if you can avoid it).

Hm, if one healer gets conflag and the second fireball, the second heal won't jump into conflag and just share the dmg with OT and fairy. Works great for my group.

PS: a simple Regen will let the one who got fireball and instantly conflag survive easily.

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Originally Posted by Thorauku

How to do this exactly?

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I believe you can have a Death Sentence macro. Death Sentence comes out once every 35 seconds. Something like:

/p Twintania casts Death Sentence <se.1>
/wait 25
/p Death Sentence in 10 seconds <se.2>
/wait 5
/p Death Sentence in 5 seconds <se.3>
/wait 2
/p Death Sentence in 3 seconds <se.4>
/wait 1
/p Death Sentence in 2 seconds <se.5>
/wait 1
/p Death Sentence in 1 second <se.6>

Ideally you'd want to break the first Neurolink (85% health, end of Phase 1) about 5 seconds before or after Death Sentence appears.

He is not talking about how to do that, he is asking how to time the DS so it goes off at convenient times during the conflag phase. Basically it's on a set timer, but when conflags start depends on your dps so you can manipulate the timing of DS during conflag phase by holding or pushing dps in the first one. It's been forever since I've had to bother about DS so I can't really remember what makes it easier, but experiment.

Edit: nm i didn't read your whole post, it's probably around that timing yeah.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

We keep wiping on Phase 2 and I wonder if we are doing something seriously wrong.

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Right now, the off-tank stands with the garuda-egi, and the person with fireball runs there when targeted. Conflag, person runs to Twin, and the DPS kill it down. If conflag is up while someone has fireball, then that person will also run into conflag. It all seems easy, but in practice, it doesn't seem to be working.

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Statement: Don't use Garuda Egi for fireballs unless there are not enough people to have 4 on a side with Eos/Selene as one. This one's static does Off-tank, Monk, SCH (x) on the left, BLM, BLM/SMN, WHM, BRD on the right. Every even numbered Conflag will be a 'fast' one, meaning you get 10 seconds roughly to kill it so have all your dps (especially your BLMs) save cooldowns (Firestarter, Thundercloud, etc). If you are having issues DPSing these conflags down, try not having your tank not walk into the conflag and just make sure your scholar has adloq and your WHM has stoneskin on the tank for Death Sentence(DS). Virusing every other DS also helps tremendously.

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Yes, there are people not running in time, but last night people became very frustrated when the same person who just got fireball would then get conflag, so he dies cause health was too low, or when conflag hits a healer, and then fireball also hits a healer, so now down 2 healers momentarily. After an hour of wiping like this, the group just pretty much gave up last night. Group's been making attempts at it for about 3 weeks now and we keep wiping at phase 2!

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Statement: Your healers should have no trouble healing a fireball if succor and sacred soil are used for all of them, both of these should be up for every single fireball not walked into a conflag. If the same side is targeted for both the fireball and the fast conflag, have the WHM use Cure 3 and have the SCH fairy heal bomb the target, no one should ever walk into being conflaged with less than 50% health. If you get what is called 'double healer' (healer conflag + healer fireball), have your tank pop cooldowns until they are broken out, then the scholar can lustrate the tank back out of the danger zone.

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I'm worried the team will just stop trying turn 5 at all if things don't improve.

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Statement: Every team member is responsible for their own performance. No DPS should be parsing lower than 210~230 for any reason, if they are having issues, have them practice. Healers should know when to stoneskin, Adloq, Succor, and Sacred Soil, if they don't have them watch videos (Yivi in Mr Happys video is pretty damn good at it for SCH) and practice the timing. Tanks should know when Death Sentence and conflags are coming and manage cooldowns effectively and if they aren't they should research and get better at it like the others.

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Please help :(

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Observation: This fight is a team fight, every role is important and must be played at its best to clear it. If you have any other questions feel free to ask.

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Originally Posted by Thorauku

How to do this exactly?

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

Thought phase 2 always started when Twin got to 85% HP? Then at 55% was Divebombs <.>

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Phase 2 begins once she reaches 85%, but her pattern of attacks is based on when she last did her Death Sentence. If you're having trouble surviving Death Strike/Conflag/Fireballs, you can line it up so that 1/2 of the Fireballs are absorbed by Conflags, and all of the Death Sentences are.

HOWEVER, be careful. Spend too much time standing around trying to line things up and you'll hit the enrage timer when you get Twintania to 2%...and let me tell you now, that is not a good feeling.

I need help with that too, my coil group decide to swap agroo every DS, it seems to working so far coz we just passed phase 2 last night, but i still want to solo tank it (swap agroo seems wrong to me), i dont know if im doing something wrong but i dont have a CD up for every DS, i need to combo IR+SP+(thrill of battle or vengance) to hold DS dmg, dunno if healers are doing something wrong coz i dont know their roles and belive my gear is good enoght to solo it.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/38/x7r1.jpg
[Btw sry about my english]

As a Warrior? Time dat Inner Beast.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

As a Warrior? Time dat Inner Beast.

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This is exactly what our MT does and it's fantastic. I SCH the fight, and with Inner Beast + Adlo(please be a crit) sometimes the tank won't even lose their shield, and let's not forget Storm's Path debuff as well. Our group currently doesn't stoneskin/sacred soil at all for DS because our tank has gotten so good at timing the IB buff. It's very liberating being able to use all aetherflows exclusively for lustrate, every DS gets 1 or 2, and calling out how much "ammo" I've got frees up the WHM to heal other people knowing the tank will instantly get healed for 2200-4400 after a DS + any precasted heals.

Fireball is not "random", so your healers shouldn't be that pressed to cap everyone off. Pre-succor is very easy to do, so if your SCH isn't doing it s/he needs to step it up.

Pre: Succor, soil is pretty optional
Post: Succor, Medica2, Regen on MT

Your healers should learn the correct timing for their spells so that the cast finishes as Fireball visibly hits, so the healing is almost instantaneous and Fireball won't interrupt their casting. Can instead use Surecast or Swiftcast as previously recommended, but learning the timing for pre-healing helps your healers improve in general.

Our group puts the tank in every conflag and makes sure phase 1 -> 2 timing is synced so that Death Sentence would go off while conflag is up, so Twintania just never does it in that phase.

You may also want to just do 4-stack conflags if people are having issues surviving 3-stack. If your DPS isn't good enough to kill a 4-stack you're going to have issues later anyways. You can do: SCH+fairy+(2 others) on one side, (4 others) on other side of Twintania. Put Garuda somewhere out of the way. Or you can do a variation of what you've been doing: OT+Garuda+fairy+(fireball'd).

Other than meeting the DPS checks, if anyone dies for any reason in this fight outside of Twisters or Divebombs it's usually a healer problem.