Changing the Attribute Point / Physical Level System - Something more FLEXIBLE :)

To: Producer Yoshida and the FF XIV Team,

Regarding Question #8 on your 2nd Player's Poll:

"The bonus point allotment system was intended to be a means by which players could customize their character's individuality. The free distribution of attribute points has given rise to certain problems, however, such as compatibility issues with the Armoury system, and the lowered effectiveness of the attributes themselves. In particular, this lowered effectiveness of attributes also extends its influence to items, and is therefore something that we feel must be rectified. To do so, we are currently looking into the following two options:

1. Removal of the bonus point system, and the addition of automatic allotment of attribute points based on class.
2. Removal of physical levels, and the addition of class-specific allotment of attribute points for each class based on rank.
3. Would you prefer option 1, option 2, or the current system?"


You said you were "surprised" by the results, but I wanted to shed some light on what some of us are feeling about the current Physical Level / Attribute Points System you have now, and why ~85%(!) of us voted to DUMP the current Physical Level System for something else:

1. The current Physical Level System makes it too hard to change Classes when needed.

You have to spend countless HOURS waiting to "Reassign Points" (and you only get a portion of your Attribute Points back) and wait a few more hours and reassign more points, etc., to finally move the points to the proper configuration you want (say, from a Gladiator to a Conjurer).


2. The current system marginalizes Attribute Points / Stat Points: You have to add an enormous amount of Stat Points (Attribute Points) to see a difference (if at all), with the current system.

Adding ~10 to 20 Attribute Points to any Statistic (STR, INT, DEX, etc.) seems to do very little in the game. But that's because you're allowing us to move HUNDREDS of Ability Points with this system. After waiting hours and hours, and finally getting most of your Attribute Points back, how can any system properly balance someone dumping, say, 150 Points into Dexterity (DEX)?

It "feels" like if you add 150 Points into STR, you should be killing weaker monsters for 9999 Damage or something ;), but instead you get a slight increase.


3. Related to the above, by allowing a system that can allow people to move / add HUNDREDS of Ability Points around, it really makes Equipment Stat (Ability) Bonuses feel useless in comparison:

If I can add 200 Ability Points into DEX, what good is that +5 DEX Ring (Jewelry) really going to do?

Each point of Statistic improvement on equipment should feel special and you should notice a difference in Combat. Right now, these pieces of equipment feel like they do very little, but it's all we have right now.

Suggestions:

• By having a system where you can switch Classes and have most of your Attributes switched over, with *some* Attribute Points to customize your Player, that will make it more fun and easier to change Classes in the game. That's why your Option #2 was the runaway favorite:
  
  "Removal of physical levels, and the addition of class-specific allotment of attribute points for each class based on rank."

So we get some customization, but also have our character easily swapped between different classes without having to wait hours upon hours in the current system.

And, you can now properly *balance* Attribute Points, and make them more meaningful in Combat. It would be nice to see a REAL difference if you just bought a +7 STR (Strength) Ring and saw a marked improvement in damage (not like it is right now, which is hardly noticeable, if at all).

Thanks for listening! ;)

Honestly I don't understand why we need to remove the physical level.
I was thinking 2 different way to have a good result.

1. Easy Easy Easy (Very-very-easy)reset. Every character can reset his point touching a crystal, in a camp or in a city. This works in some other MMO very well.
2. Create a Window, where we can create, save, select, and eventually modify 4-5 different setups of stats. I prefer this model, because I can create my own setup of stats (i.e. "healer) and use it when needed in a party, or create a "DPS" setup when I'm solo.

yea i agree with this take out phys level and have it so each class has there own stats points to distribute so you can still customize your stats how you want to and you dont have to restat to change to a mage or another class but yet still be unique in your own way.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

Honestly I don't understand why we need to remove the physical level.
I was thinking 2 different way to have a good result.

1. Easy Easy Easy (Very-very-easy)reset. Every character can reset his point touching a crystal, in a camp or in a city. This works in some other MMO very well.
2. Create a Window, where we can create, save, select, and eventually modify 4-5 different setups of stats. I prefer this model, because I can create my own setup of stats (i.e. "healer) and use it when needed in a party, or create a "DPS" setup when I'm solo.

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Hi Mr_Gyactus,

Well first, the option was to keep the system "as is" (no changes), or go with choice 1 or 2 (which 85% of the people voted for).

But even if they gave us the idea you have to reset their points touching a crystal (pretty good idea :)), it doesn't solve the problem with balancing the whole Attribute System in making each Point more meaningful.

When you get to Physical Level 50, you can move around HUNDREDS of Attribute Points. With the current system, do you think that new piece of Armor you just bought with "STRENGTH +2" is really going to do much? (It doesn't.)

The developers backed themselves into a corner with this current system. If they do away with Physical Level and restrict the Total # of Attribute Points you can move around, then they can make the Attribute Points mean more. That +5 MIND Ring you just bought will actually have a more noticeable effect in-game during Combat, instead of right now, where it means almost nothing.

Kiara has the best solution it makes gear more important even though i despise WOW since there are no clear purpose for any of the jobs we have yet maybe take the approach they did and make each class unqiue in themselves have a conj that can focus on buffing and put skills in that or put skills so they can be a nuking conjurer like a blm or a marauder that focuses on dd or can spend skill points and focus on tanking etc

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

Honestly I don't understand why we need to remove the physical level.
I was thinking 2 different way to have a good result.

1. Easy Easy Easy (Very-very-easy)reset. Every character can reset his point touching a crystal, in a camp or in a city. This works in some other MMO very well.
2. Create a Window, where we can create, save, select, and eventually modify 4-5 different setups of stats. I prefer this model, because I can create my own setup of stats (i.e. "healer) and use it when needed in a party, or create a "DPS" setup when I'm solo.

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I would love this system.
The OP has a point too talking about the efectivness of stats, but i guess both of the things can be addressed separately.

One thing I would also like to talk about about are the converter traits.
I guess they were supposed to be used to easily switch betwen different disciples but they have got 2 main flaws:
- they con't move enough stats, even using all of them you still need to reassign more then one time.
- they don't suffer the rank's cap, so are mainly used to add power to one disciple rather then ease the changing betwen them.

Simply put, I think it's possible to keep the physical level, by allowing each class to respec it's attributes and they are then stored for each class so when you switch from one class to another they are what you had set them at. Same for actions too. A way to keep them saved for every class upon switching from one class to another. They put in surplus to deter us from playing too long period and from playing too long on one job, they emphasized about the ease of switching from one class to another. But they then make us have to constantly do these little micromanaging tasks each time we switch that do nothing but take time. Macros help but those still take time too.

Would be optimal to set your stats and actions once for each class, and build on or change them accordingly as you rank up. There is no need for constantly changing stats and actions, unless their main goal really was to make us spend the time to do so.

Nice post Kiara, Agree with you 100%. I still like the niche this game has with moving abilities but yes each job should be very different as a base to start.

Ranks and Physical levels, I am fine with it.
But the stat system, I hate it!
Resetting the stats takes to long, and even if it was faster I am still not a fan of placing my stats around.
Change job, stats auto change. Hmm I need more dex. Guess I will go buy XXXX ring for more dex.
Make gear matter.

So we can have a cheat character in minutes? Or to devalue the stat system more for the sake of balance.

"Listen up people we're going to face a boss with a lot of magic attack next, so max out your mdef stats now"

There's a reason why you couldn't completely redo your stats in a matter of moments. Of course the fact that you could redo your stats in the first place had to be balanced to the point where stats matter very little with caps and forumlas.

Well, i offered them a suggestion a while ago and i think i should post this here aswell:

A good way of "fixing" physical level would be mixing it with the already used (by like every MMO) automatic distribution.
The game would do a distribution based on base atributes of each race (the ones shown when you choose a race/clan) and raising it 8% at every level up (rounding down). This would generate a character with attributes going between 59 and 88 (59 for attributes that were 12 at level 1 and 88 for the ones that were 18). This would be the base attributes.

But to complete this, a player would receive 2.5 bonus points per level up (which would make it alternate between 2 and 3 or, is happens to look better, getting 2 points from 2-26 and 3 from 27-50), which would generate 122 bonus points.

But these bonus points would work differently from current one. ever point would worth always 1 attribute and the attribute cap (supposed to be around 170 at current system) would be pulled down to 120.

Having a cap in 120 would allow them to make attributes having a more expressive effect (since there wouldn't have peaks of 150~170 anymore), making characters more balanced and still protecting the customization freedom of players since they would still be able to distribute the bonus points at will.

The player still will be free to put as many points as he wants in any attribute, but i suggested that, once they surpass the cap, the number highlight in red to show that, for that level, the attribute is above cap. Also, the amount of bonus points was chosen as 122 to protect the right of every race/clan of playing any class. Since the smallest base attribute is 59 (and some classes would have 2 of those, like dunefolf that have 12 starting STR and VIT) so, when you use the bonus points on these attributes you can add 61 points on each, being able to reach the cap (120) with both attributes.

This way would be protected the idea of, as example, a dunefolk to being able to tank as GLA just as well as a Hellsguard, even though the starting atributes of dunefolk isn't favorable to this role.

No matter how much i think about this, it was the best way to deal with physical level without having to use traditional systems like automatic attributes distribution based on class. Specially because using low values the player wouldn't really need to reassign bonus points unless he's retiring a class, because 59 base attribute plus 15 from traits already offer 74 points in a attribute with minimal base value (103 if the class has a starting base attribute of 18), making reassign good but not a must to play effectively every time you change class.

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Originally Posted by ESAR

I had an idea for this I posted on another site.

We keep the physical level.
Rather then having stats shared amongst the classes, each class would have they're stats saved to the weapon. That way if you decided to change from Gladiator to Conjurer you could do so with minimal down time (since the conjurer stats would be where you left them, high INT MND and PIE).

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Hi ESAR,

Some good ideas. :) I think the players' favorite choice in this Poll Question (#2) is something similar to what you're saying above: When you switch to a different Class, your Stats will *mostly* switch to fit that Class (so changing to a Conjurer will move the stats to a high INT / MND / PIE setup). But with a small pool of extra points to customize it a bit.

I'd be happy with this change soon. It's just too painful to switch between 2 drastically different classes right now. :(

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

So we can have a cheat character in minutes? Or to devalue the stat system more for the sake of balance.

"Listen up people we're going to face a boss with a lot of magic attack next, so max out your mdef stats now"

There's a reason why you couldn't completely redo your stats in a matter of moments. Of course the fact that you could redo your stats in the first place had to be balanced to the point where stats matter very little with caps and forumlas.

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Hi kukurumei,

How is having a system to change your class's stats more easily a "cheat character"?

I think we have to ask Square-Enix and the FF XIV Team what their vision of "Final Fantasy XIV" is. I understand your sentiment of wanting to be devoted to 1 class (or take longer to switch classes), but I'd say that was valid if this was Final Fantasy XI during Years 1 - 3 or so (where it took most people 1/2 a Year to a *Year* or more) to reach Level 75. You were devoted to a specific job and it took a long time to reach Max Level.

In FF XIV, it took 1 player 3 WEEKS to reach Max Rank 50 (the Japanese Archer player), and with the new faster SP patch recently, people are easily getting to Rank 50 much faster than before.

I got Rank 50 in both of my mage classes months ago. So what now? I'm stuck playing a maxxed out Mage class with NO End Game Content?

The way that FF XIV seems to be going (sort of) is like a Final Fantasy V or Final Fantasy Tactics with lots of different "Jobs" at your disposal. People reach Max Level too fast in this game. So the "style" of this game seems to lend itself to be more like a "try out lots of different Jobs (Classes) and switch around"-style, than a traditional "dedicate yourself to 1 Class for years"-style of RPG.

Right now, it's a complete pain and nightmare to try and switch between your Max Rank Class and something different. If people are curious why this is a problem, for the limited "end game content" we have now (NMs, Faction NMs), imagine trying to participate in these events one day, and then the next day, you try to do Guildleves with a new Class you want to experiment on (e.g., from Pugilist (Max Rank) to Conjurer). And then the 3rd day, you're back to fighting NMs again.

You can't do it unless you're super diligent, staying up for Hours, waiting for "Reassign Points" Button to highlight again, so you can Reassign more points, and take ~10 - 12 hours to move all your stat points around. It's inconvenient, not fun, and it's counterintuitive to the style of game FF XIV is right now (easy to reach Rank 50, nothing to do at max Rank).

Again, if the idea was to slowly build your 1 Class and devote yourself to it (like FF XI early years), that's understandable, but that's not what FF XIV is.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Again, if the idea was to slowly build your 1 Class and devote yourself to it (like FF XI early years), that's understandable, but that's not what FF XIV is.

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There's a reason why player customized stat MMOs don't let you change your class ever unless with a rare extreme monetary trade off or make a whole new character.

Private server MMOs that hacked their games to allow instant stat changes...well it was fun and great for the first month, then everyone stopped, because there was nothing left to play with.

It's call a history lesson. Stat control, or in other words, making "builds" has always been a double edge sword. Games like Ragnarok Online lived on that for years.

Instant changing is a "cheat character" To be able to min/max yourself at any given time for any given situation is a cheat in MMO terms, because MMO live on stats. That's why FF14 attempted to balance it the way it did. The whole armory system revaluation is based on the same problem.

And the fact that devs are moving away from a stat system is exactly the reason. Too much build changing and subsequent balancing from it has lead to extreme dullness in the world of Eorzea.

Instant gratification formulas tend to have disastrous results in practice. This has been shown for the past decade by Private servers of various MMOs. The ones that have the most stable and high populations end up to be the one that don't give you any class in moments, any stats in moments, and any item in moments, while the cheat character servers tend to die to double and even single digit players.

There's a whole theory in testing and slew of compromises in the world of private servers, but empirical evidence makes it pretty clear again and again. It just doesn't work unless you like ghost towns.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Instant changing is a "cheat character" To be able to min/max yourself at any given time for any given situation is a cheat in MMO terms, because MMO live on stats. That's why FF14 attempted to balance it the way it did. The whole armory system revaluation is based on the same problem.

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Don't make it instant then. There are plenty of alternatives. It's easy to agree with you that such an extreme solution leads to extreme problems, but that doesn't mean there is no way at all to make a free stat distribution system work.

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Originally Posted by Lairin

Ranks and Physical levels, I am fine with it.
But the stat system, I hate it!
Resetting the stats takes to long, and even if it was faster I am still not a fan of placing my stats around.
Change job, stats auto change. Hmm I need more dex. Guess I will go buy XXXX ring for more dex.
Make gear matter.

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I totally agree with Lairin. I don't like the "make your own build" system.
If I change my job from Gladiator to Conjurer, my stats will change with the job. That way, If I need more STR, or MND, or whatever, I will go and buy me a good equipment. That will make a difference, not only in my stats (when buying a good equipment), It will make a difference the way people will see the Stats and the Equip.

Right now, a ring or an earring with INT +5, can cost 50k, or 100k. Why I'm going to pay that? The only difference I'll see it will be on my pocket.

I understand that may be poeple who likes doing his/her own build on the character, and If SE wants to give us the chance to make our own build, the need to stabilize the points.

Like Kiara said, what can we expect on putting 4, 8 or 10 points in STR, If we already have 130 or 140 points in that Stat?
I prefer the stats changes with the class, and If SE wants to give us some points in each level... I'm with it, but these points may only be like a "bonus" to add wherever we want.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

Honestly I don't understand why we need to remove the physical level.
I was thinking 2 different way to have a good result.

1. Easy Easy Easy (Very-very-easy)reset. Every character can reset his point touching a crystal, in a camp or in a city. This works in some other MMO very well.
2. Create a Window, where we can create, save, select, and eventually modify 4-5 different setups of stats. I prefer this model, because I can create my own setup of stats (i.e. "healer) and use it when needed in a party, or create a "DPS" setup when I'm solo.

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I agree.
In my opinion the best thing to be done here ist to make a unique stat/equip/skill menu for every class, where you can put your gear in and your skills.
Later you just change the class name (or weapon), much like in FFXIII, but whithout making constant change a tactical point. (penaltys for changing class during battle could stay as they are)

This means: No macro for every new equipment peace, no timeconsuming skill changes and no point allotment.

The game makes it way to complicated to change classes as it is now!

I'd like to emphasize that Yoshi-P called them bonus points. If they're a bonus, why not keep the physical level and have each class individually earn a drastically reduced number or points, say 1 or 2, or even 0 on some level ups. Drastically increase their effect and take out respec-ing so that allocating each individual bonus point makes you think about how you play that class before you confirm your allotment. The system is fine, they just went friggin overboard.

Probably people is missing the correct point of view.

first at all, a quick answer. There is a MMO game called "guild something" where you can reset stats everytime you enter a town. Everyone is happy, so I don't understand this "cheat mode thing" you were talking about. I have played for years a game where stats were fixed, but there were classes and however it was frustrating. You could do only a role and PVP/PVE/MVP had different spec. A time consuming, that's all. But time changes.

Developers wanna add importance to stats.
If not, why do they ask for changing?
The actual system, where stats have a limited weight, can live with a soft reset.

But just try to imagine this situation (number for example).

Before
Fire III: 1,000 damage points. 750 comes from Fire III skill, 250 from stats.

If we put more importance in stats, it should change in something like

After
Fire III: 1,000 damage points. 300 comes from Fire III skill, 700 from stats.
(take numbers as example, not as a spoiler).

Stats stand for: char stats, equip stats, modifiers.

Now, try to think we normally play as a pugilist. If we want a good damage output, our first goal is to stack Strenght and Dex, because pugilist's skills takes advantage from those stats.

But if we want change in a conjurer, for example, or in a gladiator, we will unable to work properly until a full reset of stats.

Now a former pugilist changing into a conjurer
Fire III: 750 from skill + something from attributes (let's say 800 total)

After
Fire III: 300 from skill + something from stats: 350 damage total

So, we need a feature to change easily our stats point. If not, we will be unable to change "de facto" our role and class.

I prefer a system with personal allocation of stats, because there are different point of view when you play a class.
Someone can say "conjurer is better with stamina and int" someone else can say "I prefer Dex and mind" and some other "I wanna a conjurer with high int and mind".
Every idea can be great or a complete fail, but we are not in the position to judge how a player wanna develop and play his own character.
If we force players in only one direction, (stamina/INT conjurer) we create an easy path to follow for new players, but we chop off the imagination and creativity. We should add contents and options, not removing opportunities.

Now, I'm curious to see an answer from Yoshida-sama.

Then a good point of what you say may be giving us both things.

First of all, down all the stats of jobs. I don't need 150 STR and Lv. 50. Maybe with 60 would be enough, then these points will have more importance (and the stats of the equipment too)

After that, let each job gain a certain number of static attribute points. something that let you play that job even If your main is a mage, or If your main is a DD and change to mage.

third, give us some way (Phisical level¿?) to earn some bonus points (1 or 2 in some levels) to allocate wherever we want.

That way I can allocate these points for DD characters, and still be able to play a mage without being lolMage.

P.D: Plus I still prefer automatic builds. I don't like to give points to my stats, but I understand the other way to think too. :P

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

I prefer a system with personal allocation of stats, because there are different point of view when you play a class.
Someone can say "conjurer is better with stamina and int" someone else can say "I prefer Dex and mind" and some other "I wanna a conjurer with high int and mind".
Every idea can be great or a complete fail, but we are not in the position to judge how a player wanna develop and play his own character.
If we force players in only one direction, (stamina/INT conjurer) we create an easy path to follow for new players, but we chop off the imagination and creativity. We should add contents and options, not removing opportunities.

Now, I'm curious to see an answer from Yoshida-sama.

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That's the problem with instant gratification formulas and reason many MMOs don't allow "stat resets". Once people find their ultimate build, they loose interest and move on.

That's why stat resets were done the way they were. If people kept changing stats every other day, they would find the perfect mix to do any event as long as they plan for it. AKA cheat character. So the team eventually made stats so small and capped.

If you want to get into the whole matrix theory of people are happiness when they don't get what they want, this is the best empirical evidence we have. Most private MMOs that let people stat reset tend to die really quickly. But official servers that make them work for their dream build...well that's different.

You talk about new age and all that, well here's to people leaving eh. A flexible job system and a flexible stat system turns into one of those stereotypical "win" buttons. People get bored and leave.

It's also no fun for a battle planner to make this big bad dragon, then a guild comes in equiped with a full Defense tank, and full int mages, then once it's all over people go back to partying with a str/dex builds and stam/int builds, then they do crafting, with full dex builds...

Let's throw in the old RagnarokOnline building example:
Everyone wants a blacksmith, but a full item blacksmith requires all Luck, so they can't level themselves. So there was a whole sub-culture based around the sought after full luck/dex blacksmith.

Now let's take the fact that you can reset stats. Full warsmith, then full luck smith. Anyone and everyone has a blacksmith, people get bored, economy crashes, RIP.

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Originally Posted by YUGON

Then a good point of what you say may be giving us both things.

First of all, down all the stats of jobs. I don't need 150 STR and Lv. 50. Maybe with 60 would be enough, then these points will have more importance (and the stats of the equipment too)

After that, let each job gain a certain number of static attribute points. something that let you play that job even If your main is a mage, or If your main is a DD and change to mage.

third, give us some way (Phisical level¿?) to earn some bonus points (1 or 2 in some levels) to allocate wherever we want.

That way I can allocate these points for DD characters, and still be able to play a mage without being lolMage.

P.D: Plus I still prefer automatic builds. I don't like to give points to my stats, but I understand the other way to think too. :P

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Hi Yugon,

Yah it seems like the most popular vote on the Player's Poll goes towards what you're thinking here, with most of the stats switched over, and a few extra points to customize as we please. Hopefully we see this soon. :)

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

It's also no fun for a battle planner to make this big bad dragon, then a guild comes in equiped with a full Defense tank, and full int mages, then once it's all over people go back to partying with a str/dex builds and stam/int builds, then they do crafting, with full dex builds...

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Why would any designer have a problem with that? Isn't that exactly what they would want players to do? Using all the game mechanics to their full extend to have fun in every aspect of the game, instead of creating highly-specialized one-trick ponies that are unsuitable for half the game?

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Let's throw in the old RagnarokOnline building example:
Everyone wants a blacksmith, but a full item blacksmith requires all Luck, so they can't level themselves. So there was a whole sub-culture based around the sought after full luck/dex blacksmith.

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You call it a sub-culture? What it means is that this system basically degraded Blacksmiths to afk characters. Since they were unfit for battle, you were either completely dependent on someone else grinding XP for you via party sharing, or you had to grind low-level mobs for ever, which many people avoided by using bots. How is that a good design? How does it in any way enhance your game experience?

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

Why would any designer have a problem with that? Isn't that exactly what they would want players to do? Using all the game mechanics to their full extend to have fun in every aspect of the game, instead of creating highly-specialized one-trick ponies that are unsuitable for half the game?

You call it a sub-culture? What it means is that this system basically degraded Blacksmiths to afk characters. Since they were unfit for battle, you were either completely dependent on someone else grinding XP for you via party sharing, or you had to grind low-level mobs for ever, which many people avoided by using bots. How is that a good design? How does it in any way enhance your game experience?

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Hi Naqaj,

Well-said. :) Again, I think it comes down what the Original (and now New) Team want for Final Fantasy XIV. The fact that the accelerated SP (Skill Point) settings have remained through 2 patches, means that I think Yoshida-san is perfectly happy with the faster SP, faster Leveling.

Which means way more people are getting to Max Rank 50, with nothing to do. At this point, it's clear that the best option is to start/try another Class and level that to Rank 50, etc. There are plenty of players now in FFXIV that have at least 2 classes to Rank 50 and some have 3 or 4 at Max Rank.

It really feels like it's set up for something like FF XIII, FF V, or Final Fantasy Tactics, with multiple jobs and you switch them around to use them in different situations. And with that style, there needs to be a much better way to switch Classes, without having to spend nearly a day moving Stat Points around, painfully slow (and too many Stat Points at that).

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Naqaj,

Well-said. :) Again, I think it comes down what the Original (and now New) Team want for Final Fantasy XIV. The fact that the accelerated SP (Skill Point) settings have remained through 2 patches, means that I think Yoshida-san is perfectly happy with the faster SP, faster Leveling.

Which means way more people are getting to Max Rank 50, with nothing to do. At this point, it's clear that the best option is to start/try another Class and level that to Rank 50, etc. There are plenty of players now in FFXIV that have at least 2 classes to Rank 50 and some have 3 or 4 at Max Rank.

It really feels like it's set up for something like FF XIII, FF V, or Final Fantasy Tactics, with multiple jobs and you switch them around to use them in different situations. And with that style, there needs to be a much better way to switch Classes, without having to spend nearly a day moving Stat Points around, painfully slow (and too many Stat Points at that).

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Hello Kiara ^^

Plus all what you said, and I totally agree, I think SE need to stop the way skills can be used for all classes. I don't see a Pugilist being able to Cure, Poison, Blind, Paralyze, Lower def, etc..

That way, all the jobs lose their uniquness (I spelled it right? lol), plus it makes the game even more easy.

hmmmm so i would like to add my opinion i think many r not realizing that this game is about caricature flexibility they seam to want a cookie cut class i love the flexibility to create my guy the way i want it to be so bored with every game having the same classes same skills boring might as well just delete and start over why start a new game its the same thing ha ha i believe the point allotment is the foundation for flexibility if its removed and classes r pre set we r stuck in that so i believe keep it expand on it like one guy said allow the option to save a skill point set and not have to reset it every time you switch i also do believe it can get a bit confusing so may be if you scroll over the stats it tells you what it dose for youer caricature would help i also read that point allow mentis what killed other games i don't believe that what kills games is lack of things to do like killing squirrels or dodos for days ha ha i hope to see moore group activates soon so far its like a solo game so hope to see some dungeons soon someplace cool to explore while killing hard mobs and crazy looking boos es with nice rewards to :) also hope to see more quests and more fun to and raise the leave cap 8 a day come one that's all i do now is my 8 leaves a day grinding just kinda is lime same thing over and over if there was someplace to explore while doing that might be cool

Great post! Those are some really good observations, and I totally agree myself.

My favorite thing about XI was the ability to change class on the fly. I feel like this has been thrown out the window in XIV, I really like playing Conjurer, but I find it incredibly frustrating to find myself waiting days to switch my points into a setup more viable for a Botanist! And then trying to switch back, I find myself missing out on 40-50 useless points still left in Str.

I would love to see an individual set of stats for each class I change to. Physical level doesn't even need to be removed! I think combining that with hard gear stats / level requirements and you're already on your way to a much better system.

to me the easiest change would be a combination of both 1 and 2 and i used that as my comment after the survey. keep the physical level and just allow you to allot points for each class. if you are gladiator and change to conjurer why not allow the points from the last time you used conjurer to be there instead of taking multiple resets to fix your stats for that class. if you decided to be a different form of mage by changing stats you should be allowed to reallot points there in a limited number, but keep the generic stats you set the way they are. there are way too many classes to play and fatigue is reached too fast to make a person take a day to reallot their points. by the time they can get all their points moved that class is fatigued and time to move to another.

just allow me to use my points based off my physical rank to make each class the way i want and use those as my base stats anytime i go to a different class. sure i understand that would take a while to set each class up the first time, but i would rather take the time and do it once than every time i change to that class from now on.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

keep the physical level and just allow you to allot points for each class. if you are gladiator and change to conjurer why not allow the points from the last time you used conjurer to be there instead of taking multiple resets to fix your stats for that class.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

Honestly I don't understand why we need to remove the physical level.
2. Create a Window, where we can create, save, select, and eventually modify 4-5 different setups of stats. I prefer this model, because I can create my own setup of stats (i.e. "healer) and use it when needed in a party, or create a "DPS" setup when I'm solo.

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Originally Posted by Cogs

Simply put, I think it's possible to keep the physical level, by allowing each class to respec it's attributes and they are then stored for each class so when you switch from one class to another they are what you had set them at. Same for actions too. A way to keep them saved for every class upon switching from one class to another.

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I've mentioned this solution in other threads too, and I think it is a good compromise since it removes the frustration of repeated respecs, without having to drastically revamp the current system.

So Kiara's first problem with the game was this:

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1. The current Physical Level System makes it too hard to change Classes when needed.

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Having the game save the loadouts (stats, abilities, gear) of each job separately would save us lots of time by not forcing us to use slow macros and tedious respeccing to get back to what our state was the last time we played a particular job. This time wasting is especially hard on me, who has rank 50 in both melee and mage jobs.

It is arguable, however, that this way of doing things is still too complicated, and it would be easier and simpler to just assign points based on what class you are. I would still like to keep physical level, however, just to emphasize the horizontal leveling aspect of this game. A rank 1 phys level 50 Lancer should, in my opinion, be stronger than a rank 1 phys level 20 Lancer.

Another argument in favor of automatic stat assignment is because in the current FF14 system, none of the stats are important at all except for VIT and MND. This is the same problem that happened in Diablo II (every build just capped VIT), and so the developers of Diablo III have instituted auto-stat assignment.

..which brings us to point number 2.

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2. The current system marginalizes Attribute Points / Stat Points: You have to add an enormous amount of Stat Points (Attribute Points) to see a difference (if at all), with the current system.

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I like the idea of having the freedom to assign your own stat points, but until the issue of stat point imbalance is addressed, everyone is just going to pump VIT and MND anyway. Somehow, I want to make it so that for a melee class, for example, one stat point in STR would have just as beneficial an impact to the performance of your character as one point in VIT or DEX (of course, INT or PIE wouldn't matter as much. The reason this is so hard to balance is because the increase inf VIT and MND has a linear benefit, while STR, DEX, INT, and PIE are stuck with diminishing returns.

For every point of VIT you add, you get a set amount of HP. This always keeps increasing by a set amount in a linear pattern. However, with a stat like STR, you see a fairly noticeable improvement in damage from 16 STR to 80 STR, a slight improvement from 80 STR to 130 STR, and hardly any improvement in damage from 130 STR to 174 STR.

This creates an imbalance in the relative benefits of each stat compared to each other and leads to less freedom since the only obvious builds are the ones where you pump VIT first and then leave the rest of the stats as an afterthought.

Now, point #3 -

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3. Related to the above, by allowing a system that can allow people to move / add HUNDREDS of Ability Points around, it really makes Equipment Stat (Ability) Bonuses feel useless in comparison:

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Taking into consideration what I said above, I think this would be a good change:

Do away with the "diminishing returns" behavior of STR, DEX, INT, and PIE, and have them improve on a more linear relationship, directly proportional to the amount of stat points allocated.

Simplify the physical level up process. Why am I getting 22 attribute points on level up? All that leads to is more and more unnecessary clicking. Give me 6 attribute points to freely allocate every level. That's it. With less points to go around, each individual point has a greater impact, and all of a sudden, a +5 str ring doesn't seem so crappy anymore.

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By having a system where you can switch Classes and have most of your Attributes switched over, with *some* Attribute Points to customize your Player, that will make it more fun and easier to change Classes in the game.

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Your hybrid solution also sounds like an interesting compromise. Here's how I would tailor it to the game specifically:

Your character gets stats set automatically based on two variables only: class, and class rank. Here's where physical levels and character customization come into play - for every physical level up, you get 1 free stat point to assign to your character. So, a rank 1 p.level 1 lancer would have set stats and one free bonus point to assign to however he wishes, while a rank 1 p.level 50 lancer would have the same set stats, but 50 extra bonus points to assign however he wishes.

i see what you are saying Rentahamster, but the problem is there are more than 2 different type of classes. yes, we do have the dom and dow classes, but also have dol and doh classes and their offhand and secondhand stats differ as well. i really do like your idea of lowering the amount of points on level would be a good idea, but the question would then come up as how far do they drop them and how much of a difference will each point make. as you pointed out 80-130 is very little difference, but at this point you need that 130 to be effective at lvl 50. if they drop the amounts of points received will they also raise the value of each point when you allot it?

my biggest problem is i level my battleclasses with a group doing big sp and leve parties. when i am not in party with them i am usually just sitting and crafting up mats until i run out of mats then will go farm more mats with my doh classes. it's frustrating to change from one class to another and try to allot points for a few hrs of farming then have to turn around and allot em again to sit back down and craft. then i get an invite for a nm party and say crap i can't i just dropped all my stats into int for my alc or w/e class i am doing at that time. i feel as though if i am in my pug gear my stats should be set as the last time i was a pug, but if i get into my mining gear my stats should be set to the last set of stats i used for my miner so forth and so on.

the only real way i can see this giving an optimal update for all would say drop the amount of points you got for each level to say 1 for each rank so a r50 physical would have 50 points total to throw into your attribute points and 50 into your elements. then as you got each level on that class such as pug 1 you would get 1 point for each class level. so a 50 phy on a 32con would have 82 total attribute points to allot on the con. but if you were 50 phy and 12 btn you would have 62 points to add into the botanist. this would lower your overall attribute points in the long run and would allow you to use the points in your class as you level up. it could also be used say if i was using my 50 pug and i used a con cure, but my con was only a 20 my amount of cure ability would be only 40% of a full cure because my pug is 100% cap and my con is only 40% to cap. it could be determined by the lower class and using an ability from a lower class would cause diminished results.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

i see what you are saying Rentahamster, but the problem is there are more than 2 different type of classes. yes, we do have the dom and dow classes, but also have dol and doh classes and their offhand and secondhand stats differ as well.

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Hm? In my post I agreed with what you were saying, and I also quoted Gyactus' post too:

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

2. Create a Window, where we can create, save, select, and eventually modify 4-5 different setups of stats. I prefer this model, because I can create my own setup of stats (i.e. "healer) and use it when needed in a party, or create a "DPS" setup when I'm solo.

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I have suggested this before: For each job let the player save a particular "loadout" or "bookmark" or "profile" or whatever you want to call it, so that a crafter can switch from mainhand spec to offhand spec to mass production spec to HQ spec at the click of a button, and so that a Melee can swith from tank spec to DPS spec to solo spec at the push of a button as well.

Of course, this wouldn't be needed at all if stats were set automatically. The devs, of course, would have to tweak how stats affect your main hand and off hand tools in crafting so that you can still optimize in some way for them. Or not.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

as you pointed out 80-130 is very little difference, but at this point you need that 130 to be effective at lvl 50.

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You may need 130 VIT to be effective at rank 50, but you certainly don't need 130 STR or DEX or INT or PIE since the gains are minimal. In the case of melees and tanks, you're better off keeping your strength at 80 and your Fire stat at 55 so that you can receive the "divine" boost from Shepard's Pie.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

if they drop the amounts of points received will they also raise the value of each point when you allot it?

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Yes, of course. That's what I was talking about when I mentioned "balancing". This would also achieve the goal of making a +5 stat ring that much more effective.

i just wanted a lil more clarification on what you meant. i wasn't meaning my post as an argument i just wanted to put across what i considered as an effective solution to try and solve the issues. i completely agree the +5 and +7 rings and all are way undervalued at this point in the game. those are high level items....well high with a 50 cap...and it makes no sense as to why they are ineffective. ya know they could always put a hard cap on the points you could allot to a certain stat and only allow it to be boosted above it with gear/ accessories. i think that would be too much mommy hold my hand type stuff though. oh and yeah sorry i did mean the 130 vitality.

me personally i am lazy and have my stats all 84 top to bottom so no matter what class i jump in i am set without having to allot points again. i would, however, take the time to set each class if they gave me to option when i save the points for each class so it would be set from now on.

Hi rentahamster,

Thanks for the great reply. :) Yah, however we accomplish it, I think we're hoping for the same thing: Making switching classes easier and making the game more FUN because of it. ;)

I haven't even talked about Crafting Classes with their "favored Stats" (e.g., Alchemist Main Hand Tool is dependent on high INT, etc.). Being able to let players switch classes and move most of their Stats / Ability Points is the key here.

And great point on just giving us maybe 6 Stat Points per Level Up (instead of 20+).

Most of our Armor and Weapons giving Stat Bonuses are marginalized right now. That piece of Armor that grants +2 STR is laughable the way the current FF XIV system is set up, since it adds so little in the grand scheme of points (we can add 200+ Points into STR after a full reassign, what real, noticeable effect am I going to see with the Armor that gives me +2 STR?).

I just hope Yoshida-san gives us these real changes soon. His latest interview hints at before the end of Spring, so hopefully next month?

Physical level needs to go, in my humble opinion. My FF experience has always been something like this: "If I can grind enough gil/experience, then I'll have enough to get my (insert heavy hitter here, zidane, auron, squall, cloud)'s strength from 157 to 200, I'll be able to tackle this boss with relative ease!

In FFXIV, if I fail a leve due to a small lalafell sized HP pool or a lack of combat efficiency due to accuracy or attack or whatever the cause may be, the only way to fix the problem is to try something easier. Reassigning my available points to combat my low HP pool forces me to make myself weaker in other areas for the rest of my time under this stat allocation. Reassigning my stats to a balanced set up grants no notable bonuses either.

Now, you might ask, what are you trying to say? Why does it matter to the developers that you can't get your weak character through the levequest?

The answer is simple. Stat parameters are what has always made your progress noteworthy in a FF game. In almost every FF, the attack or hit rating on your weapon makes you hit normal mobs for hundreds more. The numbers rose exponentially as you grew from a lowbie to the end result (FFVIII being an exception to this by scaling all enemies to Squall's level,). What we need to is align stats in a coherent, fitting manner for each class. Do away with physical experience and freely allocatable stat points. You're a level 1 gladiator? Okay, you get 15str, 18vit, and 15 dex. I DONT CARE that you already have a marauder at 50. That shouldn't DIRECTLY effect your performance on another class directly, as its not the same class. Make 255 the stat cap, like its always been. Allocate stat points automatically so that 50s have up to 65-80 naturally in their highest stat. And then, rescale stats' effectiveness in combat so that one level matters! 64 to 67 strength should be a BIG upgrade. Think about it. 3 is 5% of 60. If you raise your strength by 5%, your hits need to be 5% more effective. There has to be SOME kind of coherence to stats. Make that HQ worth your money. Make it worth it to fill your equip slots with a particular stat. At this point, there is absolutely no reason for me not to put every single point into VIT strictly for HP on my melees, and every single point into MND for more MP on my casters. Because if i decide to be adventerous and stack PIE and INT, I already know I'm never going to see a difference. If my INT goes from 40 to 80, my Thunder II will go from 350-360 to 356-365. It just doesn't make any sense.



In conclusion ( I know its poorly typed with no breaks so start here if you don't like proofreading)

- No more physical EXP, make your class level the sole source of measurement of basic stat parameters.
- Scale stats down slightly, making a solid 255 cap for all stats. As level cap and gear is introduced, stats can grow with them. Maybe after 5 years of expansion, and 5 cap raises all the way to 100, 255 will be reachable with some gear. Maybe not. But FF games, in my experience, cap stats at 255.
- Give gear level requirements and class specialization. A level 10 conjurer shouldn't be getting 30MP from his Vintage Robe. He should be getting an error message when he tries to put it on. It just doesn't make any sense.
- Add incentive to progress by leveling the playing field and automatically allocating stat points just like in... every other FF game?
- Add incentive to progress by introducing multiple AF-like sets for each class, creating quest chains both solo and group oriented that reward specialized gear that makes a difference.
- Improve class individuality by scaling down affinity or limiting a character to abilities within his discipline. (DoW can only use GLA MRD ARC PUG and LNC abilities, DoM can only use CON and THM, etc etc., I shouldn't be able to cure myself for 400HP 30 times in a fight on my level 1 archer, I'm sorry. but it just doesn't make any sense.)

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Originally Posted by Shoopdadoopdoop

Physical level needs to go, in my humble opinion. My FF experience has always been something like this: "If I can grind enough gil/experience, then I'll have enough to get my (insert heavy hitter here, zidane, auron, squall, cloud)'s strength from 157 to 200, I'll be able to tackle this boss with relative ease!

In FFXIV, if I fail a leve due to a small lalafell sized HP pool or a lack of combat efficiency due to accuracy or attack or whatever the cause may be, the only way to fix the problem is to try something easier. Reassigning my available points to combat my low HP pool forces me to make myself weaker in other areas for the rest of my time under this stat allocation. Reassigning my stats to a balanced set up grants no notable bonuses either.

Now, you might ask, what are you trying to say? Why does it matter to the developers that you can't get your weak character through the levequest?

The answer is simple. Stat parameters are what has always made your progress noteworthy in a FF game. In almost every FF, the attack or hit rating on your weapon makes you hit normal mobs for hundreds more. The numbers rose exponentially as you grew from a lowbie to the end result (FFVIII being an exception to this by scaling all enemies to Squall's level,). What we need to is align stats in a coherent, fitting manner for each class. Do away with physical experience and freely allocatable stat points. You're a level 1 gladiator? Okay, you get 15str, 18vit, and 15 dex. I DONT CARE that you already have a marauder at 50. That shouldn't DIRECTLY effect your performance on another class directly, as its not the same class. Make 255 the stat cap, like its always been. Allocate stat points automatically so that 50s have up to 65-80 naturally in their highest stat. And then, rescale stats' effectiveness in combat so that one level matters! 64 to 67 strength should be a BIG upgrade. Think about it. 3 is 5% of 60. If you raise your strength by 5%, your hits need to be 5% more effective. There has to be SOME kind of coherence to stats. Make that HQ worth your money. Make it worth it to fill your equip slots with a particular stat. At this point, there is absolutely no reason for me not to put every single point into VIT strictly for HP on my melees, and every single point into MND for more MP on my casters. Because if i decide to be adventerous and stack PIE and INT, I already know I'm never going to see a difference. If my INT goes from 40 to 80, my Thunder II will go from 350-360 to 356-365. It just doesn't make any sense.



In conclusion ( I know its poorly typed with no breaks so start here if you don't like proofreading)

- No more physical EXP, make your class level the sole source of measurement of basic stat parameters.
- Scale stats down slightly, making a solid 255 cap for all stats. As level cap and gear is introduced, stats can grow with them. Maybe after 5 years of expansion, and 5 cap raises all the way to 100, 255 will be reachable with some gear. Maybe not. But FF games, in my experience, cap stats at 255.
- Give gear level requirements and class specialization. A level 10 conjurer shouldn't be getting 30MP from his Vintage Robe. He should be getting an error message when he tries to put it on. It just doesn't make any sense.
- Add incentive to progress by leveling the playing field and automatically allocating stat points just like in... every other FF game?
- Add incentive to progress by introducing multiple AF-like sets for each class, creating quest chains both solo and group oriented that reward specialized gear that makes a difference.
- Improve class individuality by scaling down affinity or limiting a character to abilities within his discipline. (DoW can only use GLA MRD ARC PUG and LNC abilities, DoM can only use CON and THM, etc etc., I shouldn't be able to cure myself for 400HP 30 times in a fight on my level 1 archer, I'm sorry. but it just doesn't make any sense.)

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i completely disagree. it may be a different class, but it is still the same character. if you work out to be able to play football you build your body correct? if you go over and decide to do power lifting from there you do not start off as a complete new person because you already built your body up to a high level from your other class. all i am saying is the strength you gained from doing one class should have some bearing on what you are on the next level. i just feel as though we get too many points on each level up.

i made a suggestion earlier that on each level we get whether it's physical or class you get one point for each level. for example a lvl 50pug and lvl 50physical would have 100 total points they could allot on the pug class only. a 21con when you go to another class still as a 50phy you would only have 71 points you could use on your con. my thinking is that physical level should help you some when you go to another class, but that having the stats of a level 50 at a level 1 is way too much. this way like your +5 and +7 rings would also have usage bacause your gear would allow you to move up an additional % above the max of a stat, but we would have to take into account of the difference of the amount of overall points each point you allot would have a higher value. this would also make people take the time to make sure that the gear/accessories they equip make the maximum usage of the points it gives.

i just feel this is the fair way to correct the issue by allowing you to get some benefits off a physical level along with making each class have its own set of points to use on that individual class. it would also make items such as +5 dexterity rings actually have the value compared to the cost of those items.

IMHO I think that they need to have seperat stat distribution for each job. Ie you equip a lance you switch over to your lancer stat distribution, you equip an axe you switch to the stat dsitribution for marauder. so on and so forth. it keeps the PL and still allows you to play each class the way that YOU want to play it instead of having to spend HOURS redistributing

i agree 100% with your post Kiara, i also like to have a bit of points left after job change like you said but it would be nice if you could also save them so you dont have to reassign them (unless you want to). (like it is with abilites you set shoudl stay when you change jobs)

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Thanks for the great reply. :) Yah, however we accomplish it, I think we're hoping for the same thing: Making switching classes easier and making the game more FUN because of it. ;)

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That's all I hope gets done really. There are many methods to do so and I do agree that the current system just makes things difficult.

I'm really fond of the "idea" behind the stat system and skill / armoury system. But it didn't really work out the way I imagined it would. I'm glad you and others are addressing these issue's. I'm personally not that attached to the level part of the game, and assuming they fix the attribute system, people would be way over powered at lower levels with a physical level 50 background. Your idea seems solid. I just hope that SE implements it soon. I'm really enjoying ffxiv right now and am very psyched about future updates. I like growing with a game.

well im gonna make my point quick, if stats are almost "uselles" or dosnt helps much, why even bother changing them? instead of keeping some good dex, vit and mind, and thenn u will be abble to use almost every job, another point i want to mark is, if they want to make some kind of.. balance btw players who play a lot and players who dosnt, why does relocating stats takes that much, if a hardcore player takes up to 12 hours, a player who cant play daily would take? days? weeks? months?

but anyway im new but ive been reading a lot about this thread, and i think the weapon stat system would be better, or another "good" way could be to raise your stats depending on the class you are training, archers and leatherworkers could rise your dex, figthers and smithers could get str, and such, so to make a good "build" you would need to stick a while with certain jobs, and that way you could easily move btw like, ftr classes, or magical classes, etc

P.D.: i apologyse if my english its bad, its not my main