Succor - Impossible to get full potential?

This is in no way a complaint about scholar aoe healing. I'm aware that scholars can perform aoe heals at a perfectly satisfactory rate. What confuses me is the nature of succor. When cast before or after aoe damage, either the heal is wasted on topped players, or the shield falls off before the next round of aoe damage. Succor is like a spork. It tries to do two things at once, but really only does one thing at a time with a lot of wasted effort.

There are of course times when it's a very strong spell, like titans stomps, and it goes a long way towards keeping you alive in coil enrages, but outside of that it consistently feels underwhelming

Underwhelming, yes. But the fact that you said it is a strong spell in fights such as Titan and Coil means that it is working as intended.

While this is not eactly on point but I believe a Scholar's 50% of aoe heals come from Eos?

Eos provides a 700 potency HoT that can be buffed with rouse and fey illumination for massive effect, putting her far beyond the 150 potency heal and shield of succor. While it's great that succor performs well in the endgame, in most content I find it on par with cure III. Strong, but not useful. It disappoints me that such a costly spell often loses half of its effect.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

Eos provides a 700 potency HoT that can be buffed with rouse and fey illumination for massive effect, putting her far beyond the 150 potency heal and shield of succor.

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true, but it has a 1 minute cooldown, and regen effects is over 21 seconds which in my view are limitations.

The use of succor is very debatable. IMO, I believe it acts as a stop gap for the entire raid group from reducing their HP below to a certain level. With that said, I think succor is not meant to be an AoE heal but to make the group stop taking damage while Eos does its job for the next 20ish seconds. (and Medica as well)

I think that while asking on whether succor is suffering any deficiency, you should decide what was succor intended use. Is it to heal the raid or to keep them alive? because there is a difference between the two.

I feel Succor's main use is to heal the party, but the shield does come in handy in certain situations. Stomps from Titan, ADS enrage strategy, Behemoth's electric field in CT, these are all examples of cases where the party may need healing and can all expect to take damage down the line. In addition, Succor has the same benefit that Stoneskin and Adloquoum do: It essentially lets you heal above max HP. This is useful for instances where you know heavy party damage is incoming and wish to make the aftermath easier to clean up. Examples include the special attacks of the primals, or when Siren jumps (I've yet to see a group that can consistently get out of the way of the dash... but it's better than avoiding the middle and risking AoE charm).

You get full use out of succor anytime the group is taking periodic damage. For example, lightning damage on behemoth.

But usually it's less about making use of every single point of the spell and more about best leveraging the ability of the group to survive. If you're near full mp, why not give the party a few hundred extra health? They're that much more likely to survive if something goes wrong. After the party takes damage, succor acts to protect the party while in a "fragile" state and spot heals go out. Or if the group is at full health, succor keeps the group from reaching such a state to begin with. It's really the same as WHM regen mechanics - ticks of medica II and regen are often wasted but they still have a purpose.

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Originally Posted by Asdamine

Is it to heal the raid or to keep them alive? because there is a difference between the two.

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To heal them is to keep them alive.

Anyway, my opinion is to not see Succor as something you can spam. You basically cast it once or twice and let your WD or WHM's medica II fill the rest up slowly. The wonderful part of this game is that once AOE damage is dealt, you will not be hit by another for awhile.

Also, i believe someone have already stated. Succor should be precasted, why? Take titan for an example. Medica or Cure III is an active heal and requires cast time to execute (without swiftcast or coz), if i pre-casted Succor, the first stomp damage is mitigated and the timing for WHM and myself to cast our AOE would be just nice to top everyone off before we need to dodge the damn plume (which always come after stomp).

I use succor whenever I'm anticipating a big hit on more than 1-2 players. Then after the hit I do it again.

Or alternatively I use my macro that rouses fairy, does Fey Illumination+Whispering Dawn and makes my character do succor. So I bubble for the big hit and get aoe regen to recover from the hit. n_n Very useful in primals and Coil.

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Originally Posted by Marcusow86

To heal them is to keep them alive.

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Not necessarily. Let me give you an example -
If an attack is 5100dmg and the tank only has 5000HP, no amount of heals can keep the tank alive.
If an attack is 5100dmg and the tank only has 5000HP, stoneskin/succor can keep the tank alive.

You can keep someone alive by not using a healing spell, whereas healing could fail to keep someone alive. Therefore, Succor is a tool necessary to add that HP sponge to suck up the damage for the party.

Now, lets just say Succor acts as a HP sponge, then the question is - is it working effectively? This is a question the OP is really asking. Then my answer is a definite yes.

TBH, this is where WHMs shine, WHMs absolutely kill SCHs at group healing and it should be kept like that, we cant be turret healers and AOE healers at the same time it would just be ridiculously unfair and unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

TBH, this is where WHMs shine, WHMs absolutely kill SCHs at group healing and it should be kept like that, we cant be turret healers and AOE healers at the same time it would just be ridiculously unfair and unbalanced.

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The problem with this is, this essentially makes 2 sch parties impossible for most fights. The fact that 2 Whm can clear any content in the game, makes sch far less valued. Tanks dont have this problem, you can have 2 pld or 2 war and clear any content in the game. Its just the 2 sch combo that doesnt work. An easy fix for this would be to make sch bubbles unique to the sch, ie stacking. That way if two sch cast succor the effects arent wasted. I dont even mind if adlo doesnt stack.

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Originally Posted by chumsy

The problem with this is, this essentially makes 2 sch parties impossible for most fights. The fact that 2 Whm can clear any content in the game, makes sch far less valued. Tanks dont have this problem, you can have 2 pld or 2 war and clear any content in the game. Its just the 2 sch combo that doesnt work. An easy fix for this would be to make sch bubbles unique to the sch, ie stacking. That way if two sch cast succor the effects arent wasted. I dont even mind if adlo doesnt stack.

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Lies double sch can heal anything. L2P. You have all the necessary tools. Double whm weakness is tank healing, Double sch weakness is Aoe healing.

Letting shields stack would cause double sch to Trivialize fights. Especially if you consider that if you completely migitate an attack like death sentence. You receive no debuff.

lol Double SCH will always outshine Double WHM, but imo most of the time WHM/SCH is usually better.

When I decide to SCH/SCH its usually with a friend and we split party between us, when we know AOE dmg is coming we just aldo everyone, which is fine imo.
Communicate!!, if its a sequence of AOE damage e.g timults, decide who succors 1st, then when the other SCH is half way in cast start yours, that way you roughly interlock and most of the damage is dealt with, im sorry, dont use laziness as a reason to ask for a buff.

well maybe not on every fight, but it is possible, works for me on titan, virus, succor, SS, mitigates a good amount of damage then whm just need to do a medica II

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Lies double sch can heal anything. L2P. You have all the necessary tools. Double whm weakness is tank healing, Double sch weakness is Aoe healing.

Letting shields stack would cause double sch to Trivialize fights. Especially if you consider that if you completely migitate an attack like death sentence. You receive no debuff.

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meeh, i have heal with sch/sch, a whm has a quicker aoe heal, but 2 sch can mitigate a lot to heal less if there is communication between (sorry my grammar) also, while bombs and adds in titan ex, my tank is alive cause i can lustrate while moving and sometimes the whm tank dies cause its to bussy running

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

lol Double SCH will always outshine Double WHM, but imo most of the time WHM/SCH is usually better.


When I decide to SCH/SCH its usually with a friend and we split party between us, when we know AOE dmg is coming we just aldo everyone, which is fine imo.
Communicate!!, if its a sequence of AOE damage e.g timults, decide who succors 1st, then when the other SCH is half way in cast start yours, that way you roughly interlock and most of the damage is dealt with, im sorry, dont use laziness as a reason to ask for a buff.

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I don't really understand how people think WMH is that bad of a tank healer?
Physick(300p) = Cure I(300p) equal
Adloquiem(300p(300s)) < Cure II (650p) This goes a bit deeper, but Aldo is essentially a 300 actual heal, each with pros and cons

• Adloquiem 300p + 300s (600p/s total)
  Crit heals provide double shield, so a crit will be 300p + 600s = 900 total value
  Shielding in general has the effect of increasing eHP if used on a full target
• Cure II 650p
  Can proc free casts with Cure I
  High actual single target healing (Adlo is half shield so isn't good to cast consecutively, provides less HP restoration)

so comparing these 2, since the p/s effect on Adlo is situational, has strengths and weakness, it is best to say WHM/SCH is best together.

SCH Eos/Selene is nice additional heal, 300p / 3 seconds cast, except pet AI is silly, also macros will slow your personal heals due to queueing issues
WHM Regen is strong single target heal 150p, but is "Set it and forget it" type heal over 21 seconds

SCH Lustrate is also nice, 25% hp restoration that makes up for their Aldoquiem only healing 300p on low HP targets.

I would say SCH may be a little better in tank healing, but WMH are quite good at tank healing with Cure II and regen.

However, make the comparison in AOE healing, and WMH blows away SCH completely, SCH cannot aoe heal effectively (yes, even with rouse/whispering dawn on a 1 min cooldown). Yes, you can 2 heal SCH/SCH Titan Extreme mode, but u can also solo WHM that fight as well.


EDIT: I want to get into the p/t healing combo a little more here. potency/shield combo, is what SCH relies on mostly, like Adloquim/Sucor
p/s (potency/shield) healing abilities compared to p(potency) only
Target is at full health: This will be more effective than a p, since it can increase the target eHP. A p heal would be 100% wasted here, but a p/s heal is 50% effective for shield (assuming the shield gets used at some point). If target is full health, and doesn't take more damage before shield wears off, p/t is equal to p in healing 100% wasted
Target is not full health: In the case that a target is not full health already, then at best the p/s combo can be equal to the pure p ability. Assuming the target will take damage in the future that will consume the shield 100%, then it will be equal to a p heal. However, in situations where the shield will not be consumed (fall off), or if another shield will be overwritten before it can be used (in the case of 2 SCH or consecutive casts), then the p/s combo is significantly weaker than the p only combo.

So in summary, having pure healing is almost always more effective or equal to having shield/heal, except in the case where a target is at full hp, at which point a shield can increase the eHP of the target. So SCH is just there to avoid 1 shot mechanics from going full hp to death quickly which is what the shield does.

Overall I think the WMH is still superior and has a distinct lead over SCH, SCH does add certain things such as shield, and damage reductions , however the SCH mechanics max at 1 per group as their benefit does not overwrite with multiple.

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Originally Posted by Squa

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WHM is never a bad tank healer, just that RNG in play and SCH's shield/lustrate beats RNG.

Therefore, you can safely say that SCH will always be better in healing MT as they can eliminate many unnecessary bad luck death due to RNG. WHM on the other hand is really good in group heal.

Whm just has too few OH SHIT heals when healing a tank. Otherwise, they both are quite equal.

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Originally Posted by Richiealvian

Whm just has too few OH SHIT heals when healing a tank. Otherwise, they both are quite equal.

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I agree, 5 min? CD on Benediction seems excessive. Also, presence of mind 5 min cd ?

Back to topic ... What op was trying to say is that succor most of the time is used 50%. With one cast you heal and shield, but:

- Party 100%, only shield is used, heal wasted.
- Party 50%, both used, but cant spam it, only work once. After this, you have to wait till shields go off or shield would be wasted on each cast.

So the best way would be to cast succor once, and let whm or pet do the aoe healing. I would like to have a full aoe shield :D that way whm would me even more important.