The Programming of FFXIV? [somewhat lengthy]

Added summations in bullet point form at the end. I admit your omnipotence Joe.

With all of the problems FFXIV has had, the UI, Battle System, Market Wards, downloader, etc. I've been wondering, it's not the underlying programming that makes it difficult to fix, is it?

I recall that one of the reasons FFXI took so long to update was because it had so many different consoles to work on firstly, and that led to testing to make sure it worked well on all of them. But also the programming itself didn't make it exactly easy to add new content. (Similar to adding music files for Metal Gear for the PSX if any of you are familiar with it, it was a pain according to the developers).
Further, it was mentioned that in this new FFXIV they planned ahead and made it in turn, easy to add new content, fixing one of the banes of working with FFXI.


So I wonder, did they actually do this? Or is it still rather difficult to work with it? I mean, if you look at any game files, you'll see "normal" names, such as music, textures, etc. In WOW, for example, there's a Interface folder (can you guess what its for?) In FFXIV you see Letters adjoined with Numbers... very little words. Is this due to the translation? Or to somewhat feebly ward off hackers or somesuch?
Not to mention, when the first patches started coming out, even relatively simple sounding fixes took weeks. And other things that sound simple to fix, are still not fixed, or are in the coming, but again taking a long time.

From the little programming experience I have, one of the first things you learn is to write easy, readable code, that is modular, and easy to maintain. I mean that's one of the major reasons for the OOP (Object Oriented Programming) style of programming. Its self contained, easy to work with, and assists greatly in management of large code.

So I just don't understand, and if someone could clarify it it'd be greatly appreciated, why simple things take a ridiculously long time to fix. And features take a long time to get implemented. Of course there is the planning process and thinking things through, that's understandable. But why does a targeting system take so long to fix? Why does a UI take so long to get implemented? Or bugs in it fixed? Game companies have been know to drastically alter their UI in two weeks or so. Why is this one taking so long? WOW allows the user to modify the UI as much as they like, and it still works well.

I mean, for an experienced programmer to throw together an Auction House system shouldn't take too long. To throw together something basic shouldn't take more than a week or so. Granted to make sure it works well would take some time but... more than two months is.... well... ridiculous. And they've spent more time trying to fix the Market Wards.

It just boggles my mind that other MMOs with smaller teams can whip out more features in a shorter amount of time, and more fixes. I know that planning takes time, but come on, there's fixes everyone agrees about that take [hyperbole] ages to get implemented. Is the code that hard to work with? Is that why they brought in a New Gen programming specialist to the development team?

As an example, in the new expansion pack for WOW they changed the ways the classes worked (not too significantly but a pretty decent change for some classes), redesigned a lot of the original world, and added new types of quests, not just in content, but in style. Such as using a vehicle, quests that continue out in the field once you finish them, instances where the environment changes just for you, etc. Granted there are a few bugs, but for the majority it works well.

If anyone can clarify these that'd be great. Because I am rather... baffled at the time it takes for them to accomplish things, and if I'm wrong, I'd like to know.

Tl;Dr: Is the programming so bad that its a pain to work with the game to add/fix anything?

• FFXI was supposedly hard to work with, in terms of coding.
• System files oddly/cryptically named, due to translation/some other reason?
• Simple fixes take a long time.
• Modern programming is supposed to be easy to work with.
• I recognize that planning takes time.
• Other companies have been known to address similar issues much faster
• A basic Auction House shouldn't take long to make. More time has been spent on fixing Market
• Reason for New Gen programmer addition to development team?

P.S. Why in the world did they use DirectX 9? 10 has been out for quite a while... Its not a huge thing but... why? Even WOW added DX 11 support recently...

P.P.S Why in the world can we only trade 4 items at a time? Even FFXI had 8.

a few things to note

games with much crappier graphics take less work to update graphics and add new graphical features in
when you have more detail, more work needs to be done on that end


also, alot of these "other games" are using code copied from other mmos as is*coughrift* so why it seems they are making the game "faster" they are in fact just adjusting the code to their needs faster

also, im curious as to who yoour main is, this is obviously a post made on an alternate account so you could hide who you really are

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Originally Posted by Vafilor

As an example, in the new expansion pack for WOW they changed the ways the classes worked (not too significantly but a pretty decent change for some classes), redesigned a lot of the original world, and added new types of quests, not just in content, but in style. Such as using a vehicle, quests that continue out in the field once you finish them, instances where the environment changes just for you, etc. Granted there are a few bugs, but for the majority it works well.

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On this I don't see the same. They redesigned things in a couple of years yes, and it might not be that buggy, but it has hardly been a hit to everyone.

There's more to redesigning than rewriting code.

Yes, it is true that to add higher detail takes more time. But for things like bug fixes that don't involve models, that doesn't apply. And that's one of my key questions.

Unless I am quite unaware of how the gaming industry works, I don't think another company besides Blizzard can "copy" their code onto a different game. They may use similar engines, sure. But they can't copy it (as far as I'm aware). Rift is certainly very similar, but that doesn't mean the code is the same.

And you are quite wrong on that regard. This is my main. I've merely been thinking about this quite a while and finally decided to make a post of it. I've browsed these forums a bit, but haven't posted until now.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

On this I beg to differ. They redesigned things in a couple of years yes, and it might not be that buggy, but it has hardly been a hit to everyone.

There's more to redesigning than rewriting code.

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dont forget how they literaly "break" the game and all the classes for months in the middle of doing it all right before each expansion

Some things to consider...

• Paragraph spacing ( seem to have done this )
• Use of bullet points would of conveyed this better
• Every aspect of the game is intended
• Slow and Steady wins the race
• Square's forte is CG cutscenes not gameplay (Debatable)
• Blizzard is the supreme ruler of the MMO universe

I think one of SE's problems is they dont like being offered help, or getting outside support. If it came down to it they'd have 1 guy doing everything just to ensure everything done in house by their employees.

A lot of other big MMO's borrow engines from companies who dedicate themselves to building and use a lot of community support, for example TERA is built in the Unreal Engine, so they didnt have to make the engine they just mod it, which anyone who is an UDK expert could probably do, just add more people onto it and it gets done quicker. Aion runs on Crysis 1 engine, which is freely available thus it was easy to mod up private servers and emulate scripts using Java. But even XI to this day doesnt have a fully-retail like private server and is still getting developed on by various people as it has no grounds.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

On this I don't see the same. They redesigned things in a couple of years yes, and it might not be that buggy, but it has hardly been a hit to everyone.

There's more to redesigning than rewriting code.

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Could you elaborate what you mean by "it hasn't been a hit to everyone"?

And yes, I'm quite aware of that. But well written code makes the process quite faster, or poorly written code makes it tedious. My question is on the code itself.



@ Joeking

Yeah, I didn't realize my indenting didn't make a difference on the post, so I quickly fixed that, and I see what you did with the bulletpoints there... yes, would make it easier to read.

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Originally Posted by Vafilor

Could you elaborate what you mean by "it hasn't been a hit to everyone"?

And yes, I'm quite aware of that. But well written code makes the process quite faster, or poorly written code makes it tedious. My question is on the code itself.

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Well, lol, the new expansion caused me to quit.

Not that I think WoW is falling anytime soon, or that forums are accurate pictures of the game community... but I have been keeping on eye on wow now and then, and I still see plenty of dissent. Plus they had an actual fall in subscriptions. Not enough to phase them, but significant enough when an expansion just came out.

My point is, it's not a good idea to just "whip something up" without making sure of how it will affect the game.

Btw, I'm sorry it sounds like I'm dismissing your post, I'm really not. I just think there is more to it than that.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

Well, lol, the new expansion caused me to quit.

Not that I think WoW is falling anytime soon, or that forums are acurate pictures of the game community... but I have been keeping on eye on wow now and then, and I still see plenty of dissent. Plus they had an actual fall in subscriptions. Not enough to phase them, but significant enough when an expansion just came out.

My point is, it's not a good idea to just "whip something up" without making sure of how it will affect the game.

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Ah, I see. I'm sorry, that's not quite what I intended to say. I meant that, in terms of the game, with bugs/errors and whatnot, the game still runs well. As in, yes every now and then a quest doesn't work properly, but overall they work quite well. I wasn't talking about the "playerbase" majority.

Also, yes it is definitely not a good idea to whip something out without thinking. My question centers around, once they have thought it out, why does it take so long? At least in particular about certain bugs/features.

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Originally Posted by Vafilor

Ah, I see. I'm sorry, that's not quite what I intended to say. I meant that, in terms of the game, with bugs/errors and whatnot, the game still runs well. As in, yes every now and then a quest doesn't work properly, but overall they work quite well. I wasn't talking about the "playerbase" majority.

Also, yes it is definitely not a good idea to whip something out without thinking. My question centers around, once they have thought it out, why does it take so long? At least in particular about certain bugs/features.

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My appologies then. :)

It depends on what you are talking about I guess. I've seen them fix little bugs here and there in the patch notes.

But most of what you mention, they seem to be bigger things that would either require animations, or affect the community in some way.

The problem with the code for a game is that its huge, but thats obvious.

Also the crystal tools engine was mainly designed for the PS3 and 360, it had to be adapted to PC for 14 which can cause problems.

I would say that there could be alot of bad or misleading comments in the code which is causing unforseen bugs when things get implemented.

Also as other people have said, most game run on other engines that have been around for years and have been able to get adapted easily.

Also what you said about the core changes when cataclysm came out, a full expansion is usually in development for atleast a year, usually when a game has been released or an expansion has been released there already working on the next.

There are alot of reasons for software development to take awhile or fall behind schedule.

People should stop blaming everything on the engine which actually works it just hasnt been completly adapted for PC yet.

Also lets not forget how tightly knit together the code for a game has been, one change can dramatically affect code further in, say they decide to add delay to weapons in auto attack, and miss type a variable, that can take ages to find when its not working as intended, somthing that looks like an easy fix say they want to add another option to the menu, seems simple, however it can cause the whole menu to get messed up and needs fixing

Some of the problems are from the core coding, but i would say more are unforseen errors while they are editing the code (possibly due to bad comments)

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Originally Posted by Delsus

The problem with the code for a game is that its huge, but thats obvious.

Also the crystal tools engine was mainly designed for the PS3 and 360, it had to be adapted to PC for 14 which can cause problems.

I would say that there could be alot of bad or misleading comments in the code which is causing unforseen bugs when things get implemented.

Also as other people have said, most game run on other engines that have been around for years and have been able to get adapted easily.

Also what you said about the core changes when cataclysm came out, a full expansion is usually in development for atleast a year, usually when a game has been released or an expansion has been released there already working on the next.

There are alot of reasons for software development to take awhile or fall behind schedule.

People should stop blaming everything on the engine which actually works it just hasnt been completly adapted for PC yet.

Also lets not forget how tightly knit together the code for a game has been, one change can dramatically affect code further in, say they decide to add delay to weapons in auto attack, and miss type a variable, that can take ages to find when its not working as intended, somthing that looks like an easy fix say they want to add another option to the menu, seems simple, however it can cause the whole menu to get messed up and needs fixing

Some of the problems are from the core coding, but i would say more are unforseen errors while they are editing the code (possibly due to bad comments)

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Yes, I've heard that the programmers for SE have a lot of experience with console programming, as opposed to PC, and that this time they started with the PC first as opposed to XI where they did the ps2 first. And with what you said about the engine being designed for consoles, the two would make a bit of sense as for some of the issues.

Here's the link from where I saw it:

http://www.qj.net/qjnet/mmorpg/produ...ggest-bug.html

And yes, I'm quite aware other companies use engines already developed, its somewhat logical after all, to use one that you know works well.

I'm not blaming the engine by any means, I'm merely wondering if its hard to work with. An engine may be very efficient, but cryptic to work with after all.

As for your recent addition: core changes can rather upset the entirety of the code, so changing the battle system being lengthy is understandable. As for the menu however, adding a new portion to it, if properly coded, should not be a hassle. Actually it should be pretty easy as it should have functions to do that already.

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Originally Posted by Vafilor

Yes, I've heard that the programmers for SE have a lot of experience with console programming, as opposed to PC, and that this time they started with the PC first as opposed to XI where they did the ps2 first. And with what you said about the engine being designed for consoles, the two would make a bit of sense as for some of the issues.

Here's the link from where I saw it:

http://www.qj.net/qjnet/mmorpg/produ...ggest-bug.html

And yes, I'm quite aware other companies use engines already developed, its somewhat logical after all, to use one that you know works well.

I'm not blaming the engine by any means, I'm merely wondering if its hard to work with. An engine may be very efficient, but cryptic to work with after all.

As for your recent addition: core changes can rather upset the entirety of the code, so changing the battle system being lengthy is understandable. As for the menu however, adding a new portion to it, if properly coded, should not be a hassle. Actually it should be pretty easy as it should have functions to do that already.

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As I said I could imagine things arent commented correctly, apart from that I couldnt imagine it would be much more cryptic.

Also very few games design the menus to be edited, unless the UI is customisable, for most if the menu gets changed you will need to alter the borders of the menu and possibly change the font size or it would look broken, if the menus were made with expansion in mind the only thing they can use is blanks in the menus which looks really bad, so they just decide to re-size the borders instaid if they need to change the menus atall.

Sorry if the last paragraph was hard to read.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

As I said I could imagine things arent commented correctly, apart from that I couldnt imagine it would be much more cryptic.

Also very few games design the menus to be edited, unless the UI is customisable, for most if the menu gets changed you will need to alter the borders of the menu and possibly change the font size or it would look broken, if the menus were made with expansion in mind the only thing they can use is blanks in the menus which looks really bad, so they just decide to re-size the borders instaid if they need to change the menus atall.

Sorry if the last paragraph was hard to read.

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Maybe its the comments.

I think I'm getting my point across poorly. Let me try something else.

First example is for those with programming experience.

If you've ever programmed, you realize there is a difference between Visual C, C++, C#, Java, HTML, and Assembly.
It is much easier to write something in HTML or Visual C than it is in C++ or Java, or certainly Assembly. However, if written properly, good code is easy to maintain, understand, and modify.
My question is if they didn't do that. Did they, instead of making it easy on themselves, they wrote it very cryptically. So its more akin to writing in Assembly rather than C++. And does that contribute to longer times for fixes/additions?

To Those without programming experience.

You can make pancakes buying the batter pre-made from a store. Its easy and convenient.
Or you can make your own batter. Not so hard, but more time consuming.
Did SE go out and make their own batter, and do that for each new pancake meal?

Hopefully that clarifies it... now I want pancakes...

@ Delsus
As for your comment about the UI. Not necessarily. They don't have to leave blanks. A good class would be designed so that its not hard to add a new menu sub-option, it just appends, no need for a graphical holding place. They can just add it as a subcomponent. Its just a button that relays messages, nothing intensely hard.

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Originally Posted by Vafilor

To Those without programming experience.

You can make pancakes buying the batter pre-made from a store. Its easy and convenient.
Or you can make your own batter. Not so hard, but more time consuming.
Did SE go out and make their own batter, and do that for each new pancake meal?

Hopefully that clarifies it... now I want pancakes...

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Lol, well they wrote their own graphics software so it's possible, but I doubt anyone here is going to know. I guess you mean this is a question for the devs?

Gonna go make pancakes now... :)

We really have no idea.

It could be the programming, it could be the planning, it could be the designing, it could be poor communication, or any combination of these factors.

Considering Square tends to be really secretive about their workings, we can only speculate. Anyone claiming to know exactly what's going on without having any real connections to the developers is likely mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

We really have no idea.

It could be the programming, it could be the planning, it could be the designing, it could be poor communication, or any combination of these factors.

Considering Square tends to be really secretive about their workings, we can only speculate. Anyone claiming to know exactly what's going on without having any real connections to the developers is likely mistaken.

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I just hope it's not. I just hope that, overall, they didn't make it so that adding/fixing things is such a monumental task that they have to devote great lengths of time to it out of necessity, because it is that difficult.

Seeing as what you say is true about SE being rather secretive, this thread is only good for speculation it seems, and thus won't accomplish much.

Thank you all for your responses, some of them actually pertained to the topic.

Cheers