The value of Determination

So I heard people how accuracy is a must in the Coils, and how Vitality is a tanks most important trait, but what about Determination?

It reads that it affects damage from Auto Attacks, damage and HP restored. Yet rarely do I hear about it, if at all?

You don't hear about it because DET doesn't seem to stack well. It takes a pretty large amount of it to make a noticeable difference. I think you will find some where on here that someone did the math and 1 stat point is worth something like ~6DET. Also, I am pretty sure that the healers DET affects how much they heal for and that the DET of the target has nothing to do with it (I could be wrong about this.)

From what I've gone over, it stacks just fine and is normally equal in value to a class's next highest secondary attribute (after accuracy if applicable), the reason it's valued less when melding is because you can stack more attribute points from it's equal in most cases (giving the other attribute priority when melding).

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Originally Posted by ArkAurelius

It reads that it affects damage from Auto Attacks, damage and HP restored. Yet rarely do I hear about it, if at all?

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It affects healing delivered, not healing received. Determination is only for damage on tanks, and damage isn't a high priority unless you're well above VIT threshold for content. Among the secondary stats, determination is second priority for PLD (parry > determination) and third priority for WAR (parry > skill speed > determination).

The value of determination is very low especially for endgame content, the only reason determination had any positive effect for tanks was during low level building particularly before you could access your enmity building skills. The FFXIV Tanking Guide from 1.0 talked about how enmity scaled with Weapon Dmg + STR + DETRMN across the game, low level tanks held greater enmity values when determination stacked and that tank couldn't use skills like halon, or had sword/shield oath or with a combo of low level weapon for the mob vs dps with higher level weapons.

If you are already a PLD or WAR @ level 30 you should be focusing on : Weapon Damage> Vitality > Accuracy > Parry > Skill Speed

If DET stacks "poorly" than so does every other 2ndary stat. Its like when people are saying that Skill Speed only gives 0.01 sec reduction, as if the equivalence in CRT gives you 100% crit chance or something. The truth is, the same equivalence in CRT gives you a 1-2% chance increase, which, when you do the math, is actually be less DPS than the 0.01 sec reduction on the longer fights (for certain classes).

I like skill speed for war, cuz it means faster wrath stacks. Its not gonna be hugely noticeable but other stats aren't either. Personally, I think you should test the stuff yourself but if you don't want to, you can easily goggle the priorities or check Reddit or something. Even though I often don't agree with them, they do often give detailed reasonings.

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Originally Posted by WingsofWar

If you are already a PLD or WAR @ level 30 you should be focusing on : Weapon Damage> Vitality > Accuracy > Parry > Skill Speed

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umm very wrong

3 Points of DTR = 1 point of STR = whatever amount of extra hate that generates, use the most up to date iteration of the damage formula people on the forums have been working on.

as for WARs I do not know, but determination is important for emnity generation for a PLD.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

umm very wrong

3 Points of DTR = 1 point of STR = whatever amount of extra hate that generates, use the most up to date iteration of the damage formula people on the forums have been working on.

as for WARs I do not know, but determination is important for emnity generation for a PLD.

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People still do not have any hard data on this 3 Points = 1 point of Str non-sense... And it makes me laugh, considering how easy they made aggro management with 2.1, why do we need to increase the enmity we generate? And if that's the case, to make any significant difference, you would need much more determination than we can currently get. I am more interested in them doing tests on parry and dexterity for tanks than I am about doing more damage... If I am going to tank, I am there to take and mitigate damage, not dish it out.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

umm very wrong
3 Points of DTR = 1 point of STR = whatever amount of extra hate that generates, use the most up to date iteration of the damage formula people on the forums have been working on.

as for WARs I do not know, but determination is important for enmity generation for a PLD.

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Wut? Think about what your saying, even if 3DTR = 1STR were true. And we are talking soly about emnity values..wouldn't that still make it less valuable..aka less important. If we are scaling, weapon damage and STR holds more importance over DTR.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

People still do not have any hard data on this 3 Points = 1 point of Str non-sense... And it makes me laugh, considering how easy they made aggro management with 2.1, why do we need to increase the enmity we generate? And if that's the case, to make any significant difference, you would need much more determination than we can currently get. I am more interested in them doing tests on parry and dexterity for tanks than I am about doing more damage... If I am going to tank, I am there to take and mitigate damage, not dish it out.

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my thoughts exactly, like i said before, if you were a low level GLA and you had no access to sheild oath, sword oath, and rage of halon. I can see how determination is more valueable. Weapon Damage > STR > VIT > DTR > PARRY > SKILL SPEED. But at a certain point in the progression of the class DTR becomes less valueable to a tank roll in lew of greater weapon and larger str pools making the bulk of your enmity generation. End game content is all about finding the most Accuracy and Parry you can balance.

• 4.112 Determination = 1 Strength, in terms of damage output. This is true with all physical damage classes (replace Strength with Dexterity if you are a Bard.)
• However, unlike Strength, Determination doesn't affect your Parry DR%.
• Determination increases healing OUTPUT for healer classes, similarly to what Mind does. It does not increase healing received.

The only thing Determination does for a tank is increase the damage he outputs.

For what it's worth, I think tank DPS is pretty significant and undervalued by all, including tanks themselves. Especially for Warriors who scale better with damage stats than Paladins do. While the returns on Determination is still pretty low (just like every other secondary stat), I'm just glad it does something. It's not a useless stat. It's not an amazing stat.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

not dish it out

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There is hard data to support this, in fact there is a 2.1 factored damage formula being calculated; it is not set in stone yet but the word on the street is it is closer to any other approximation we have had thus far. Here are some stat weights for certain classes, I know it is not a paladin but I'm almost positive it would not be that far off.

MNK:

WD 8.321
STR 1
DTR 0.329
CRT 0.163
SS 0.157

BRD:

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WD 8.683
DEX 1.000
DTR 0.314
CRT 0.269
SS 0.126

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Reborn/page111

Dragoon data is also in that forum.

But if that doesn't fit any kind of supporting evidence, while I don't have the numbers I am in a emnity build at the moment due to gearing with maxed out i70 hq fully slotted accessories. I can take hate from BiS Paladins with a regular Curtana if I don't watch my aggro. (and no i'm not taking advantage of the sword oath bug)

The reason you see DEX there and not STR is due to DEX being the primary Damage attribute for a Bard,

DRG is listed below:

WD: 8.488
STR: 1.000
DET: 0.323
CRT: 0.184
SS: 0.152

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Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Wut? Think about what your saying, even if 3DTR = 1STR were true. And we are talking soly about emnity values..wouldn't that still make it less valuable..aka less important. If we are scaling, weapon damage and STR holds more importance over DTR.

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Of course STR and WP are still more important than DTR in the stat priority chain. I was never arguing this. I just didn't agree with your weights listed, because imo DTR = PARRY and would slot in above SS.

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Weapon Damage> Vitality > Accuracy > Parry > Skill Speed

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hmm all very interesting, I think accuracy does not take any kind of important role until you are doing titan and forward. i had something like 430 or lower when i was doing ifrit and garuda and never had a real issue holding aggro or missing, not to mention the insignificance of it in lower level dungeons. Now it is extremely important in Bcoil, which i believe should be 472 for melee to be 99.98%. The game it self tends to blur the lines in secondary stats and i think it is done on purpose so that someone can be an individual and not a robot. There is no bible build for endgame tanks..as far as attribute stacking. I've seen WARs with all points set to STR (as many as possible) and they just have to do some more CD juggling but do more dmg and slightly better parry rating. I've seen beefy all VIT WARS and they can clear content just the same.


Some one else here said they like the idea of skill speed which gives them faster stacks on defiance also a great idea, which works. DET does more dmg therefore generates more enmity? yea it does. Is it just as insignificant as the amount of skill speed you get from materia stacking? yes it is. Does it really matter in the end? no bc no matter which one you choose all of them lets you clear content just the same. All of these secondary stats work and they all make slight to no difference endgame which really in the end becomes a personal choice, or personal touch to your build.

I still wouldn't call it hard data at all, since it has been changing since the beta... Get back to me when it's finally pin pointed with data that is not inclined to error. What we have is still theory crafting at its finest...

I used to have a lot DTR like 290 before with food (or close)

Now I have only 238 DTR (around 240+ with food) lose -50 DTR

I test mobs level 48-49 at North Shourd and North Nathalan

Both place and mobs give me similar result, damage different ................. is 1-2

Go do it your self

Determination is the best DPS secondary stat to stack after you are acc capped. Parry is a useless stat. If you're geared, you should be specced STR on warrior for any fight but, arguably, MT twintania. With allagan axe or Dual hakken, acc problems stop. So you pretty much should stack det. Doing this basically lets you act as a dps that can also tank, adding tons of utility over your 'normal' tank-only role.

i prefer crit for WAR because critting that inner beast can really help out your healers. also works with second wind, and should give you more healing off bloodbath too.

still undecided what should come after paladin? don't think it matters. pick one and roll with it. DET oughta help your AoE tanking a bit. Not sure if it would affect the effectiveness of flash (comments?) SS will give you faster Halone combos but i fail to see how that is significant. Crit would help your threat as well, but on a less measurable level.

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Originally Posted by Kunkka

Determination is the best DPS secondary stat to stack after you are acc capped. Parry is a useless stat. If you're geared, you should be specced STR on warrior for any fight but, arguably, MT twintania. With allagan axe or Dual hakken, acc problems stop. So you pretty much should stack det. Doing this basically lets you act as a dps that can also tank, adding tons of utility over your 'normal' tank-only role.

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dat tons of utility when speccing str

protip: When tanking you basically cut your dmg (stats) by 25% while boosting the value of vit (comparatively to not tanking). Keep telling yourself that a tanks reduced dmg is totally helping the raid out. And for War the best one would be Skill Speed, not determination. That would actually give some boost to utility, if you even know what that means.

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Originally Posted by Kunkka

Determination is the best DPS secondary stat to stack after you are acc capped. Parry is a useless stat. If you're geared, you should be specced STR on warrior for any fight but, arguably, MT twintania. With allagan axe or Dual hakken, acc problems stop. So you pretty much should stack det. Doing this basically lets you act as a dps that can also tank, adding tons of utility over your 'normal' tank-only role.

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Parry is your only mitigation secondary stat and the most important after you covered Accuracy. DET SS and CRIT don't even come close.

Also, advising people to respec into STR is terrible. That's what Gryphoskin accessories are for, since they can be changed back into the (more important) Full tanking set without blowing 20k seals each time.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

Parry is your only mitigation secondary stat and the most important after you covered Accuracy. DET SS and CRIT don't even come close.

Also, advising people to respec into STR is terrible. That's what Gryphoskin accessories are for, since they can be changed back into the (more important) Full tanking set without blowing 20k seals each time.

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Remember, we're already turning into WoW... Everyone has to do DPS to make the fight .001 seconds faster.