Wall of text about DF kick options, DF misuse, EU Language issues...

Yesterday my FC and I wanted to take on Titan Hard. We were short one Healer and chose the direct approach via DF. I listed our Group as E and D language.
Our first heal was poorly equiped and in his player information F was his only highlighted language.
So we thought, well, whatever, lets give it a try. After 30 mins of wiping, he asked us to kick him, as he did not want to go on (in short english). So while we were discussing if we should kick him or not in TS he simply left the party.
The next Heal we got, was even worse - he would not use his skills at the right times (like not using his AE Shield ability when Titan jumps) and collected a lot of plumes.
After the first wipe we checked his gear and were pretty shocked that a lot of his jewlery gear was lvl 42-46 Stuff.
We discussed about this in TS. We might have been able to drag him along with a lot of effort (we are not good enough yet to "farm" Titan) but would that do any good? It would mean a lot of wiping, repair costs and frustration to us and it would also mean, that this player will be able to pass titan, to now tackle Garuda Extreme through DF.
In the end we choose to kick him, but when I opened the kick window I could not find a fitting reason for kicking. There was simply afk, dc, harrassment and cheating....
The next heal was again neither E nor D speaking and underequipped, so after that we called it quits for the day and decided to do something else.

After sleeping a night over what happened yesterday and after thinking alot about what happened and what might be the reasons why this all happened, I would like to suggest a few things:

To the Devs:
please have us write an explanation why someone gets kicked when choosing harrasment or cheating. Harrasment and cheating are harsh accusations that should not be simply klicked on and pushed through. Players might find themselves unjustfully treated and it might shed a false light on players that get kicked by these two.

To the Community:
Just because you have unlocked a certain instance in the game does not automatically mean that you are ready for it. If you find yourself wiping more often than not, take some time to consider your gear. Make comparisons to the other players that are in the instance with you. Look what requirements party finder groups and shout channel groups have and try to reach those requirements before listing for these instances in DF.
I am absolutely sure, that every Instance can be done with the right combination of routine, experience and gear.

To the EU Community:
I have heard a lot of people say "well, just check J, E, D, and F - that way you do not have to wait as long in DF". Please do not follow this advice. J,E,D and F options are there for a reason. I do not want to get stuck with players that checked them all but cannot understand a word that I am typing. I only checked the languages I can understand, because I want to be able to communicate with the people I play with.
The gear requirement of some instances is as low as it is, because it can be done with the right coordination and strategy.
But it is close to impossible to coordinate and apply a strategy when no one speaks the same language.

Phew............ a wall of text, but I had to get this off my shoulders.
Just to make sure no one misunderstands this. I am neither an elitist (quite the opposite, I love helping new players on their way with advice, gear I am able to craft for free and joining them in low lev instances) nor a racist (just because I do not understand you does not mean I hate you; I am listing in only the languages in which I can communicate, please, you do the same).
I just wanted to shed light on three things, that in my opinion need improvement.

Just a heads up - you can bypass the post limit by editing the remainder of your post, so it's one large seemless post instead of multiple posts. ^_^ I'll read it over when you're done and respond proper. <3 :3

Don't abuse the vote to kick just because you don't like their gear.
I hope SE starts taking serious action against this.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Just a heads up - you can bypass the post limit by editing the remainder of your post, so it's one large seemless post instead of multiple posts. ^_^ I'll read it over when you're done and respond proper. <3 :3

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Thank You for the advice. Much appreciated :)

first off SE can suspend/ban your account for abusing the vote kick. second most people us the DF to learn those fights most people that use it don't go in expecting to beat titan and lastly what did you expect to get for a healer using the DF tool.

I have ultimately felt like the Vote to kick feature has come up short in a lot of regards. Yet at the same time, I have seen it show a good light come from it, too.

First and foremost, the issue with the system is that it requires a 50% vote, and not a 50%< vote (I.E., it requires 2/4, not 3/4 or 5/8.) This is a big problem because it means that 9/10, people will kick for no reason whatsoever (Moreso just because they click yes without even really thinking of it. I've seen a number of people get kicked without a word said, not because they did anything wrong - but just because someone clicked yes.)


Yet at the same time, I'm happy when I can kick someone who's being a toxic A-hole, who's showing blatant disregard for other people's feelings or just being an overall hindrance to the group. But I agree with you - there needs to be better reasons. There really should be more options such as "Not playing to the game's mechanics' or just SOMETHING to say 'We feel we need a more skilled player in this slot."

And don't get me wrong - I've kicked people before.

I had one particularly toxic bard in Aurum Vale. He insisted I lost hate on the second boss (You know, the one with a hate reset?) and also blamed my tanking skill when he got backed into a corner and took a full 100 onze swing without even trying to dodge. He just stood there, and took it. This in and of itself wouldn't be bad, had he not proceeded to try and degrade me afterwards and started an argument in the party chat in regards to it. Ultimately, I voted to kick him, even though we downed the boss, just because he was bringing a generally vile atmosphere to the party at that point.

Perhaps when they start the 'abandon duty' option, they will add a 'Withdraw Request' option for party members who would like to be removed because they realise they are not up to par for the dungoun. An option where they can request to withdraw, and as long as 1-2 other people agree, they withdraw with no penalty (Which would be nice on a lot of regards.)

Anyways, hopefully your future runs go better~ <3 ^^

I think they should increase the DF gear req's by a bit across the board.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Don't abuse the vote to kick just because you don't like their gear.

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So what do you do when you get somebody with gear that can essentially make a fight near impossible for you? Just wipe until you time out or they leave? Not saying you should kick them, but they are essentially wasting the time of 3-4 other people by coming severely undergeared to a fight. People should know by now that the ilvl restriction is far too low for most groups.

Thanks to the OP for a well thought-out and well-argued post. While I agree with much of what he says I disagree in one key point. The basic problem seems that the OP used the wrong tool in putting together his run. He used DF rather than PF.

In Party Finder you can set your own requirements for gear, experience, play-style, whatever. If someone joins your group who does not meet your requirements you can kick him before you start the run.

In Duty Finder you go with what you get. Permitted use of the kick function is tightly limited to 4 reasons, and only those reasons: afk, cheating, dc, harassment. Being a weak player or having gear that meets SE's minimum (but in your opinion is still insufficient) are not amoung the enumerated reasons.

One can well argue that SE set the gear minimums for certain runs too low or that the promised-but-not-here-yet abandon duty vote function is needed asap. A consensual withdrawal option is also a good idea. But a word of warning (as another poster mentioned), using the vote kick for weak armour or poor (but not harassing) play are currently reportable actions and can lead to temporary suspensions or even bans.

I don't believe SE is going to broaden the permissible uses of vote kick, out of fear that it will lead to rampant abuse. In fact, I think it should be strengthened to require a majority vote of the party members rather than the majority of voters as it currently is. That is, 3/4 for small parties and 5/8 for full parties.

Again, thanks to the OP for such a thoughtful posting.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Perhaps when they start the 'abandon duty' option, they will add a 'Withdraw Request' option for party members who would like to be removed because they realise they are not up to par for the dungoun. An option where they can request to withdraw, and as long as 1-2 other people agree, they withdraw with no penalty (Which would be nice on a lot of regards.)

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I like this idea. I'd like to see more kick options - I do not feel that kicking a player for performing badly should be considered harassment unless they are refusing to listen or are being jerks. I do think there needs to be something to select when the rest of the party feels a "still learning" party member has been given a chance but is preventing the party from completing the duty due to inexperience.

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Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Thanks to the OP for a well thought-out and well-argued post. While I agree with much of what he says I disagree in one key point. The basic problem seems that the OP used the wrong tool in putting together his run. He used DF rather than PF.

In Party Finder you can set your own requirements for gear, experience, play-style, whatever. If someone joins your group who does not meet your requirements you can kick him before you start the run.

In Duty Finder you go with what you get. Permitted use of the kick function is tightly limited to 4 reasons, and only those reasons: afk, cheating, dc, harassment. Being a weak player or having gear that meets SE's minimum (but in your opinion is still insufficient) are not amoung the enumerated reasons.

One can well argue that SE set the gear minimums for certain runs too low or that the promised-but-not-here-yet abandon duty vote function is needed asap. A consensual withdrawal option is also a good idea. But a word of warning (as another poster mentioned), using the vote kick for weak armour or poor (but not harassing) play are currently reportable actions and can lead to temporary suspensions or even bans.

I don't believe SE is going to broaden the permissible uses of vote kick, out of fear that it will lead to rampant abuse. In fact, I think it should be strengthened to require a majority vote of the party members rather than the majority of voters as it currently is. That is, 3/4 for small parties and 5/8 for full parties.

Again, thanks to the OP for such a thoughtful posting.

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I had to make the post the way it is, since this is a very delicate issue and I didnt want to start a shitstorm ;)

Anyway, You are absolutely right, we should have gone with Party Finder instead of Duty Finder.

True, kicking someone for a different reason than the four that are there now is illegitemate, but one might argument, that listing for a language that one cannot speak could be considered cheating. But I guess that would be stretching it a little far ;)

Anyways thanks to everyone so far for the sensible feedback, I was expecting a lot more hate. Thank You for proving my fears wrong. :)

The problem is, that people, espacially frensh players, are listening with languages they don't speak. I do not have a problem with that if they know the dungeon but if not and you can't even explain it to them...

I didn't think if you were D,E you could get an F.

This may be a stupid question, but do you realize that all languages are selected by default and by clicking them in DF you are deselecting them? Maybe you deselected D,E and left yourselves with F,J?

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Originally Posted by jmdatcs

I didn't think if you were D,E you could get an F.

This may be a stupid question, but do you realize that all languages are selected by default and by clicking them in DF you are deselecting them? Maybe you deselected D,E and left yourselves with F,J?

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There are no stupid questions :)
But when I enter DF only E is selected and I need to select the other languages by myself - I am 100% sure about this.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Don't abuse the vote to kick just because you don't like their gear.
I hope SE starts taking serious action against this.

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Objection: Kicking for lack of skill/gear IS NOT against the TOS. It is simply the opinion of bads that get upset when they are kicked rather than carried through difficult content.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Don't abuse the vote to kick just because you don't like their gear.
I hope SE starts taking serious action against this.

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They won't. Lets face a basic math reality. There was a majority of people in a given group who didn't want that person there. Be it because of gear, play, haircolor... whatever. Pure cost benefit analysis says not to act simply because at worst you have a player who needs to re-queue. No lasting harm except to maybe ego as opposed to lasting financial harm taking action against the voters.

As I said before the feature got put in; realistically no support organization is going to get involved in this type of dispute other than politely taking the complaint and quietly filing it into the circular file drawer while smiling and saying 'we'll look into it'. They'd have to be insane to do otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Xayoc

Objection: Kicking for lack of skill/gear IS NOT against the TOS. It is simply the opinion of bads that get upset when they are kicked rather than carried through difficult content.

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Not this again. Oh, but it is. If wishes were fishes...

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Originally Posted by Jeff

The problem is, that people, espacially frensh players, are listening with languages they don't speak. I do not have a problem with that if they know the dungeon but if not and you can't even explain it to them...

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I have a thing where i can understand a lot of Japanese, but especially when under stress, have a hard time feeling confident enough to speak it, much less type it. I tend to not select J on languages though unless it's low level or story dungeons, since i could do most of them in my sleep now though.

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Originally Posted by evilsohn

There are no stupid questions :)
But when I enter DF only E is selected and I need to select the other languages by myself - I am 100% sure about this.

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I think your defaults are set up in your Search Info. I'm not sure, but I think it might pull from the languages you have set in there.

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Originally Posted by Xayoc

Objection: Kicking for lack of skill/gear IS NOT against the TOS. It is simply the opinion of bads that get upset when they are kicked rather than carried through difficult content.

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True. Don't let the bads use fear tactics to try to justify not removing them.

No where is it stated in their TOS, rules, etc......you cant kick someone for performance issues. Time and time again, people have asked these types to provide proof for their allegation and they come up terribly short. Most of the time they post their own personal opinions and try push that as if it were a written rule somewhere. If someone is not pulling their weight in an end game group, remove them and move on without fear of any disciplinary action being taken against your account.

To the bad players who keep getting kicked....

1. Learn your class
2. Start dodging the red reticles of death on the ground and stop eating them expecting someone to save you.
3. Start doing some research on the fights and stop winging it causing the group to wipe and wasting the other 7 players time.
4. Get some tomes and buy some gear upgrades. Stop going into these fights with the bare minimum gear and expect to be carried.
5. Do these things and start winning.

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Originally Posted by Calyanare

I think your defaults are set up in your Search Info. I'm not sure, but I think it might pull from the languages you have set in there.

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Sadly it does not - I have my Search info set to D and E but the DF always resets to E whenever I relog.

I pick all the language options even though I am only a J and E speaker because yes, DF takes forever if you don't. I have ended up in only F groups often, but we've managed. It's not the end all. If I simply picked J and E, the queues would go from 45 mins to probably 1 hr 45 mins... I doubt there are any J speakers on my server, so that narrows it down to just relying on E. No thanks.

I know I'm going to sound like a major butthole but I kick people for "harassment" because they're harassing me with their terribleness. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/harass

Not being "good enough" or having "good enough gear" is not an acceptable use of the vote kick, nor should it be. That is what party finder is for.

To the naysayers, not the OP:

The rules for vote dismiss are spelled out clear as day in the Queen's English in the patch notes: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...7af43f3c43828a

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The Vote Dismiss function has been added.
Players who are absent for extended periods or harass others can now be democratically expelled from the party.

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/t/038...c43828a_47.png

To initiate a vote, first select Party Members from the Social section of the main menu. Next, select the party member you wish to nominate for dismissal, then Vote Dismiss from the submenu. When vote dismiss is initiated, party members will be prompted for their response. If more than half vote Yes, the player in question will be dismissed from the party.

* 4 hours must elapse since your last successful use of vote dismiss before you can initiate another. (revised 12/18/2013)
* You will be required to select a reason for dismissal. Please be warned that unjustified usage of vote dismiss is a punishable act.
* Please wait at least five minutes before using Vote Dismiss on a player who has logged out.

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If vote dismiss was intended to be used to dismiss people you didn't like, there would have been an option for that. The only acceptable uses of vote dismiss are for "afk, dc, harassment and cheating." Any other use is abuse and should be reported as such.

And no, not being good enough is not harassment, but vote kicking people because you don't think they're good enough is.

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Originally Posted by Xayoc

Objection: Kicking for lack of skill/gear IS NOT against the TOS. It is simply the opinion of bads that get upset when they are kicked rather than carried through difficult content.

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GJ Yoshida.

Remember your idea of allowing addons? Gearscore and vote kicking is bad enough, let's not go "full WoW" please.

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Originally Posted by Scarletyoshi

Not being "good enough" or having "good enough gear" is not an acceptable use of the vote kick, nor should it be. And no, not being good enough is not harassment, but vote kicking people because you don't think they're good enough is.

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There's a difference between not being "good enough" and not being good AT ALL. I don't care what you or anyone else says, if you're wasting my and the other two-six people's time in a group by not being able to perform your basic job duties, ESPECIALLY at Level 50, then you are "harassing" us. You're terribleness and thus wasting of our time is annoying and bothersome which is included in the "Queen's English" definition of the word harass. Harass: (1): to annoy persistently (2): to create an unpleasant situation by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct. I trimmed out the irrelevant (to this situation) parts of the second portion of the definition.

It's not like I vote out first timers, "under-geared" players, players that make a mistake or two or anything like that. I'll gladly explain every minute detail of a dungeon, raid, boss etc. but when it gets down to it, I can't play your job for you. And if you can't play your job and are unwilling to voluntarily leave, then myself and the others in the group have every right to vote you out and find someone else that can play your job.

While I disagree with the first part of OP's thread, there is one thing on which I do agree:

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Originally Posted by evilsohn

To the EU Community:
I have heard a lot of people say "well, just check J, E, D, and F - that way you do not have to wait as long in DF". Please do not follow this advice. J,E,D and F options are there for a reason. I do not want to get stuck with players that checked them all but cannot understand a word that I am typing. I only checked the languages I can understand, because I want to be able to communicate with the people I play with.
The gear requirement of some instances is as low as it is, because it can be done with the right coordination and strategy.
But it is close to impossible to coordinate and apply a strategy when no one speaks the same language.

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This is not exclusive to the EU community, but I've seen it more often happen with non English speakers (probably because there are way more english speakers than others, so you don't feel the need to do this to find a party as much when you can speak English).
I always tick both E and F since those are the languages I can understand and use. 90% of the time, I end up in English parties. Sometimes, in French parties.
Once in a while, I end up in mixed parties, where I see some people like me (both E and F), some E only, and some F only, and I'm like "WTH? What language are we supposed to use here?"
If people could at least communicate with auto-translate, I would consider it maybe okay, but it's usually not the case. (I've only seen two people actually using it)


About the rest...

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Perhaps when they start the 'abandon duty' option, they will add a 'Withdraw Request' option for party members who would like to be removed because they realise they are not up to par for the dungoun. An option where they can request to withdraw, and as long as 1-2 other people agree, they withdraw with no penalty (Which would be nice on a lot of regards.)

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This so much.

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Originally Posted by Sub-Xero

There's a difference between not being "good enough" and not being good AT ALL. I don't care what you or anyone else says, if you're wasting my and the other two-six people's time in a group by not being able to perform your basic job duties, ESPECIALLY at Level 50, then you are "harassing" us. You're terribleness and thus wasting of our time is annoying and bothersome which is included in the "Queen's English" definition of the word harass. Harass: (1): to annoy persistently (2): to create an unpleasant situation by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct. I trimmed out the irrelevant (to this situation) parts of the second portion of the definition.

It's not like I vote out first timers, "under-geared" players, players that make a mistake or two or anything like that. I'll gladly explain every minute detail of a dungeon, raid, boss etc. but when it gets down to it, I can't play your job for you. And if you can't play your job and are unwilling to voluntarily leave, then myself and the others in the group have every right to vote you out and find someone else that can play your job.

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Queen Bey is not amused at your attempt to warp her words. That is nowhere near the accepted definition of the word "harass," not the Queen's nor Square-Enix's. If you initiate unjustified vote dismissals against other players because you don't like their playing style you are harassing them, your level of giving a care is inconsequential. It's not against the rules to be bad, it is against the rules to be a urine ejector. If you would like to impose limits on who can and cannot play in your presence, use party finder. If you're unable to find enough people willing to put up with you when they can see you coming, perhaps you have bigger problems.

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Originally Posted by Scarletyoshi

That is nowhere near the accepted definition of the word "harass," not the Queen's nor Square-Enix's. If you would like to impose limits on who can and cannot play in your presence, use party finder.

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How is that nowhere near the "accepted definition" when it came straight from Merriam-Webster? Maybe terrible people should use the Party Finder to find people that will be accepting of their complete and utter ineptitude? I mean, that's what it's there for right, to find like-minded individuals? Oh and being terrible isn't a "play style"... it's just being terrible.

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Originally Posted by Sub-Xero

There's a difference between not being "good enough" and not being good AT ALL. I don't care what you or anyone else says, if you're wasting my and the other two-six people's time in a group by not being able to perform your basic job duties, ESPECIALLY at Level 50, then you are "harassing" us. You're terribleness and thus wasting of our time is annoying and bothersome which is included in the "Queen's English" definition of the word harass. Harass: (1): to annoy persistently (2): to create an unpleasant situation by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct. I trimmed out the irrelevant (to this situation) parts of the second portion of the definition.

It's not like I vote out first timers, "under-geared" players, players that make a mistake or two or anything like that. I'll gladly explain every minute detail of a dungeon, raid, boss etc. but when it gets down to it, I can't play your job for you. And if you can't play your job and are unwilling to voluntarily leave, then myself and the others in the group have every right to vote you out and find someone else that can play your job.

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Agreement: This one could not have stated this better.

Statement: A healer doing nothing but DPS during boss fights and causing wipes; a DPS doing less total damage than the tank; a tank that cannot hold hate off of a DPS with 15-20 iLvL of gear difference. This game is so simple to be 'decent' at a class that this one has no other way of seeing this than textbook harassment as defined above and to draw the conclusion it is done purposefully to impair the ability of the group to progress hence vote kick is 100% within intended parameters.

Absolutely. If you believe the person is doing it on purpose, then you are by all means entitled to call for a vote kick on them. If not, whatever you want to call "harrasment", it's not it.

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Originally Posted by Billie21

Absolutely. If you believe the person is doing it on purpose, then you are by all means entitled to call for a vote kick on them. If not, whatever you want to call "harrasment", it's not it.

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There is no way to tell if it is on purpose or not, so its safe to assume that if he keeps being bad he/she is harassing your group and should be evicted. I'm pretty sure getting rid of someone dragging down the group is "Justified".

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Originally Posted by Sub-Xero

How is that nowhere near the "accepted definition" when it came straight from Merriam-Webster? Maybe terrible people should use the Party Finder to find people that will be accepting of their complete and utter ineptitude? I mean, that's what it's there for right, to find like-minded individuals? Oh and being terrible isn't a "play style"... it's just being terrible.

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The idea that someone not being as good at something as you think they should be constitutes harassment is nowhere near the accepted definition of harassment. Nor does "being terrible" constitute harassment, unless that terribleness results from initiating unjustified vote dismiss actions against other players for reasons that are not afk, dc, harassment, or cheating.

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Originally Posted by Pikachew

There is no way to tell if it is on purpose or not, so its safe to assume that if he keeps being bad he/she is harassing your group and should be evicted. I'm pretty sure getting rid of someone dragging down the group is "Justified".

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Not according to the quite clear definition outlined in the patch notes explaining this feature, Queen's english and everything. Her Royal Majesty Beyoncé is at the top of her field, if she had meant these words to mean what you want them to, she'd have thought of it herself.

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Originally Posted by Pikachew

There is no way to tell if it is on purpose or not, so its safe to assume that if he keeps being bad he/she is harassing your group and should be evicted. I'm pretty sure getting rid of someone dragging down the group is "Justified".

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No it's not.
Someone trying to ruin people's game experience, yes.
Someone being not as good as the rest of the team, no.


Of course, you can't necessary tell for sure that a person is doing it on purpore.
A troll might pretend he's just very bad, just to mock you.
An abuser might pretend he's convinced he's being trolled just to kick someone he feels "is dragging him down" out.

There are honest people. There are dishonest people.
There are limits to what a videogame can do to prevent people from behaving inapropriately towards each other.


Just know that if your act (troll/abuser) isn't good enough, eventually, you will get punished.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

<snip>
First and foremost, the issue with the system is that it requires a 50% vote, and not a 50%< vote (I.E., it requires 2/4, not 3/4 or 5/8.)

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Actually, it is a majority vote. the person being voted on has no say in the matter.
With a 4-man party you have 3 voters, it only takes 2 of those 3 to kick. Clear majority.
With an 8-man party there are 7 voters needing 4 of 7 to kick. Again, clear majority.

I'm of the belief that being alive is being in a constant learning path. This sunday I went o have some fun on my WAR, queued for Haukke Manor Hm and on my first group I got two fairly well geared BLM, with their relic and all. From past experiences I thought it would be another easy run and I ended not going past the first boss because casters seems to have trouble moving away from aoes.They quit. My next atempt we got a blm with AF mixed with ilvl60 and some lvl 40 jewelry, the other was a Summoner. I commented with my healer over skype that it would be just another painful DF run. How happy I was when they proved me wrong and one shot all boss but the last!

Be consequent with the usage of the kick function. Use it for the right reason, not because the gear from the other players doesn't match your egocentric standards. If they don't know the fight, just tell them the basics. MOST players don't need detailed instructions and you take less than a minute to type down stufsf like "when the boss animate, run away from him" or "interrupt xxx skill, pls". Dont be a d*ck and you might get to know wonderful players that only happen to not have started the game at the same time as you.

If you still wanna be "picky", use the marvelous Party Finder tool! It was, IMO, one of the best features added to this game and, boy, don't do I use it all the time when not playing with FC!