Monk new BIS

So with all the new gear around the I80 CT gear and Primal weapon what is the new Best in slot for monk?

i80 gear is filler till you get myth/Allagan. After that it is purely vanity gear.

Check this thread out, has 3 sets, utilising the extreme primal drops also

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-help%21/page3

Enjoy....

Guess Allagan Choker of Striking is pretty much uesless for MNKs? or not?

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Originally Posted by Thorauku

Guess Allagan Choker of Striking is pretty much uesless for MNKs? or not?

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iLvl90 gear is never useless. Your main stat is ALWAYS the most important. If you don't have the hero's neck, then a differeint iLvl90 is the next best possible thing to equip.

Best in slot is some pie in the sky to shoot for, but you should never pass up having more of your main stat by upgrading a slot's iLvl. The only exception is if equipping a new item makes you fall below accuracy cap, which hopefully can be fixed with food, and that's ONLY when gearing for coil (for now anyway).

Let's also remember that as far as we know, coil is the only place that requires us to have a butt ton of accuracy. This means if you pass up on a iLvl90 because it's not BiS, you are gimping your damage on literally everything in the game, because it's not the end all be all piece, that's just silly.

Let's also ALSO remember that this crap isn't going to keep you from beating T5, or anything for that matter. If you have a bunch of good gear, you're probably fine; nothing in the game, at this point, requires perfect gear.

I agree with JetBrooks. I am in the same predicament arm with my earrings. Only piece that is i70. Hoping to replace with the Allegan or Tremor (if we beat him) but upgrading to Myth earrings may be something I consider. Hands and belt for me remain at i80 rest i90. I'm now stuck on weather I should be upgrading to a myth easrring which is the worst item in the slot available in comparison with other i90 earrings or upgrade the belt/hands/braces/choker? Guess it will for me at least depend on Titan extreme and our ability to beat it and the drops from Coil next week. Allegan belt and hands would be lovely lol

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Originally Posted by KaosPrimeZero

I'm now stuck on weather I should be upgrading to a myth easrring which is the worst item in the slot available in comparison with other i90 earrings or upgrade the belt/hands/braces/choker?

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If monk is the only job you're ever going to play, then it'd be a no brainer, time to upgrade the earring. However, since your gear is most likely good enough for anything in the game right now; I'd probably put the myth into a more necessary piece on another job.

I was looking at that. How come myth boots is not added for BiS? Before the patch allagan and myth boots for mnk had the same stats now it's different unless it was revert back.

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Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

I was looking at that. How come myth boots is not added for BiS? Before the patch allagan and myth boots for mnk had the same stats now it's different unless it was revert back.

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Melee Boots are not listed as BiS because the new Allagan boots are better.

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Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

I was looking at that. How come myth boots is not added for BiS? Before the patch allagan and myth boots for mnk had the same stats now it's different unless it was revert back.

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T5 BiS (BiS with T5 drops) have been changed because Allagan weapons are now ilvl95. An ilvl95 weapon will have different secondary stats that will affect the overall balance of your gear.

Let's say your new ilvl95 weapon has a bit more accuracy now, you no longer need that bit of accuracy in another piece of gear, so you can use something else for more determination/crit/whatever.

Yeah I won't get the weapon yet since I've only done t1 and t1. Before 2.1 both myth and allagan boots had the same secondary stats which was crit and skill speed. Now allagan boots have determination instead of crit and I thought crit weights more than deter. It's why I'm asking why s it better. Unless main stats for the striking allagan is also change?

Before 2.1 the BiS for mnk feet section was either allagan or melee, it was pretty much which piece u get first. Allagan free vs myth costing, both stats from the main to secondary. Now 2.1 update allagan boot striking secondary stat crit have been change to determination. So my question now is, why allagan boots still BiS, is there some kind of hidden reflect for wearing multiple allagan piece, is better because it's free or is determination somehow better Than crit?

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Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

Before 2.1 the BiS for mnk feet section was either allagan or melee, it was pretty much which piece u get first. Allagan free vs myth costing, both stats from the main to secondary. Now 2.1 update allagan boot striking secondary stat crit have been change to determination. So my question now is, why allagan boots still BiS, is there some kind of hidden reflect for wearing multiple allagan piece, is better because it's free or is determination somehow better Than crit?

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Det is considered by most to be better than crit. I am going to include SE in my "most" there because they budget it way higher on gear. Notice Det tends to be a much lower value than other stats on gear.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Det is considered by most to be better than crit. I am going to include SE in my "most" there because they budget it way higher on gear. Notice Det tends to be a much lower value than other stats on gear.

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Ok with that logic from what you said, deter being so low since it brings so much to dpS, then melee gaskin should be in BiS for legs since it have determination compare to allagan legs having crit. I can see allagan gloves for us for BiS since it have both deter and crit. With that logic also deter>crit, won't dire wolf Shirt of Striking be better for body since it have determination of 24. Sry for somewhat of a noob question, I'd just like to know how much or what number s needed to make one stat good. I know that str eats all fallowed by acc till u hit cap.

Okcorrection on the leg piece for BiS. Melee gaskin is there.

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Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

Ok with that logic from what you said, deter being so low since it brings so much to dpS, then melee gaskin should be in BiS for legs since it have determination compare to allagan legs having crit. I can see allagan gloves for us for BiS since it have both deter and crit. With that logic also deter>crit, won't dire wolf Shirt of Striking be better for body since it have determination of 24. Sry for somewhat of a noob question, I'd just like to know how much or what number s needed to make one stat good. I know that str eats all fallowed by acc till u hit cap.

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Yes, you're right. Most BiS uses the Melee Gaskins over the Allagan.
What Rochetm said is true but it also proves that det is not that much better than crit. You can't compare crit and determination point for point because you will never get as much det as you will get crit.
In other words, Det isn't so much better than crit because you will always get less of it. I still favour it, but the difference isn't very big.

The Direwolf Shirt gives 24 Det. Great, but the Morale is worthless.
The Allagan Cuirass gives 34 Crit and 24 Acc. 34 crit is worth the same as 24 determination, give or take. 24 Acc is very valuable.
Even the Melee chest is better because 34 accuracy + 24 Skill Speed is worth a lot more than 24 Det by itself.

So get Determination if you can, but BiS is usually more concerned with minimizing Skill Speed.
Crit or Det are fairly interchangeable, but Bootshine (auto-crit) and even Internal Release (to some extent) means that Det is favourable over the two.

Yeah the moral does nothing for pve so lossing th acc is bad if your not cap at determination which brings another piece to the table to may b bring u to cap or close to it and that piece would b the melee gloves, combine that with dire wolf body to compensate of the lost acc. Acc is only good till u hit the cap from my understanding, anything more than the minimum requirement is a waste of gear slot. Sry not trying to argue, I'm not good with numbers, I just like to know why a lot of the mnk community believe that the said 3 BiS set above is good.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LH6A
my opinion on best balance for the average joe; because lets face it, only a handful of posters here have or will see the end of turn 5.

@ Allyrion

dont forget about the fuma one, it's statistically stronger than melee, and far easier to obtain than a turn 5 drop some monks may never see.

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Originally Posted by monkguy

dont forget about the fuma one, it's statistically stronger than melee, and far easier to obtain than a turn 5 drop some monks may never see.

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Fuma is low on str vs melee. Sadly primary starts are worth way more than secondary stats.

Always keep in mind that BiS does not mean the absolute best item for that specific slot but all the slots combined. If you where to BiS each piece whithout looking at the entire setup you would be using mostly Allagan. You would also be missing a lot of acc and that would be bad.

Weapon damage >>>>>>>>>>>>> STR/ACC cap >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DET/CRIT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SS

Why?

Damage formulas put weapon damage ahead of Str by about the same amount that Str is ahead of det/crit... its that good. ACC is important because every miss is a massive loss in dps, risk of buff/debuff loss, and really annoying to deal with. Determination is over crit even though you don't get as much of it because we one ability that always crits and a cooldown with high uptime that greatly increases our crit... in other words crit doesn't effect everything we do and Det does.

SS has a couple problems. One is that it doesn't effect auto attacks which are a good deal of damage for us. Another is that it increases the rate at which we burn through our TP which can lead to other problems. There are fights like Ifrit HM where SS is pretty good because of the constant resetting of GL but I am not going to make a set of gear heavy on SS for very rare fights where it isn't the worst stat.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Fuma is low on str vs melee. Sadly primary starts are worth way more than secondary stats.

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except in this case, the secondary stats are so much better than the little bit of extra strength melee offers that it literally is statistically stronger. here is dancing mad's calculator using my set up and then switching to melee:
http://imgur.com/33XivrU

it literally is a worse armor. i don't need a lecture on how stats work, as i've taken it into account.

Fuma body is definitely a nice stop gap if you do intend on clearing T5 while using Myth to fill out other slots. Though I totally agree it is best to stack as much Str as possible the difference between Melee and Fuma is what? 4

Looking at that, that's basically a racial difference. Say between Keepers and Seekers, the Str difference is 3...so if you see a Miquote that's a Keeper...you aren't going to look down on em for missing 3 Str are ya?

Basically if you intend on clearing T5, I would go Fuma...fill out Myth in other slots first. Like monkguy said, Fuma is exponentially easier to obtain than Allagan and faster than saving for myth.

Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by monkguy

except in this case, the secondary stats are so much better than the little bit of extra strength melee offers that it literally is statistically stronger. here is dancing mad's calculator using my set up and then switching to melee:
http://imgur.com/33XivrU

it literally is a worse armor. i don't need a lecture on how stats work, as i've taken it into account.

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Swap Fuma for Melee chest, Melee legs for Allagan and run those numbers again. Each WS does a tiny bit less damage but overall WS increases by a lot. AA goes down a little as well but not enough to make up for a 1.4% increase in WS damage.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Swap Fuma for Melee chest, Melee legs for Allagan and run those numbers again. Each WS does a tiny bit less damage but overall WS increases by a lot. AA goes down a little as well but not enough to make up for a 1.4% increase in WS damage.

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the autos dont just go down a little, they go down quite a bit, AA over time does way better than a little increase in WS damage; i still stand by my set, it has the optimized determination you can get without going too under on acc. dont give into the crit hype, fuma is a lot better than you give it credit for.

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Originally Posted by monkguy

the autos dont just go down a little, they go down quite a bit, AA over time does way better than a little increase in WS damage; i still stand by my set, it has the optimized determination you can get without going too under on acc. dont give into the crit hype, fuma is a lot better than you give it credit for.

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You think 3 AA damage is a lot? Over time doesn't make a difference. You AA at about the same rate as you WS.

I've already argued that the strength difference can never be made up.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Temple/page123

Skill speed is the worst stat for sure, but it's not as bad as strength is better. If that makes sense.
Even the person arguing for that fuma had these two stat weights:

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(being Det= 0.22/Cr= 0.16/SS= 0.146 and Det= 0.223/Cr= 0.154/SS= 0.156, respectively)

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Both of which fail to justify the Fuma. Note that you cannot simply swap between the two since the Melee chest provides accuracy.
Instead, you would need to rebalance your accuracy (as Rochetm said) to make a fair comparison.

A fair comparison from the link above, using the first stat weight (which puts less value on SS).
Melee Cyclas + Allagan pants = 32.504 + 37.944 = 70.448
Fuma Chest + Melee Pants = 32.98 + 32.74 = 65.72

Acurracy was left out as a stat since it is given in equal amounts in the Cyclas and Pants.
The difference between the sets is the same 4 strength you would expect.
Determination is our best secondary stat, but it is worth much less than 1 strength, it is given in smaller amounts and the other secondary stats really aren't that far behind it (since you get more of them).
Overmelding is the only way to catch up with an item level difference like that. And even that only allows for around 10 ilvls.

Again...I go back to racial stats.

If the case can be made that Fuma is a totally unacceptable body piece...than the case would need to be made that anything other than a Hyur Highlander will be a sh^t monk.

I don't agree with that, as well as anyone out there that says race makes no difference.

Shoot, Allyrion you are a Keeper. You lose 3 STR to Seekers and 5 STR to Highlanders...if STR can NOT be made up...you are purposely gimping yourself?!

Because if we had say the same exact gear (me being a Seeker and you being a Keeper) but you have Melee Cyclas and I have Fuma...you have exactly 1 more STR than me with probably WAY over acc cap making it worthless and SS which you call worthless as well. I have more Det and Crit.

All I am trying to do, is advise MNKs out there that if your goal is Allagan Striking body, you should probably look at Fuma above Melee if you acc is capped.

I rolled as a BLM first and I play a few classes on this one character. So yes, I am statistically gimped compared to a Highlander or even my Seeker cousins.
I'm fine picking racial based on Aesthetics, hell I won't even argue if you picked some gear based on that as well.

Also, I didn't call SS worthless but just our worst stat. I've actually be trying to make a point that it's not even that bad. The Accuracy isn't worthless cause you can drop it in other areas. Of course I will agree it depends on which drops you get.

I'm not here to be elitest or judge someone's aesthetic choice. I won't even disagree that the fuma is a bad stop gap you said, Nash. In fact, it's a great one considering the cost of the Melee chest.
I myself have picked up the Fuma hands and settled with it for now. I'm only ilvl 88 and moved my myth spending on to my other jobs.

None of that is the argument though.

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Originally Posted by monkguy

except in this case, the secondary stats are so much better than the little bit of extra strength melee offers that it literally is statistically stronger. here is dancing mad's calculator using my set up and then switching to melee:
http://imgur.com/33XivrU

it literally is a worse armor. i don't need a lecture on how stats work, as i've taken it into account.

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Monkguy is talking straight math and putting the Melee chest lower than the Fuma chest.
He is saying that the 4 strength is not better than the secondary stats you get from the fuma.
That's what I'm arguing against. That shuffling stats around will never make that difference.

I'm not arguing that 4 strength is that much to cry over, just that it's worth more than you can get from trying to optimize your secondary stats.
If you're arguing that myth might be spent elsewhere or that Fuma functions well since you're going into T5, like you were. That's fine.
If you're arguing that the Fuma is a statistically stronger piece than the Melee, like monkguy was. That's different and I would disagree.

Ah, I understand now.

Must've misread the argument.

Being said...I have a static that hopefully will down T5 within the month, so...I am more than satisfied with the Fuma over the Melee and spending Myth elsewhere.

With that...if you don't think you can ever down T5 or don't have any interest in Coil, Melee Cyclas is a worthwhile piece...but probably the LAST piece I would purchase with Fuma being readily available.

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Originally Posted by Nash20

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There's absolutely no reason for you to be well over accuracy cap just because you have the Cyclas. That's kind of the point, it lets you offload accuracy elsewhere for better gains. There's no point in comparing piece vs piece, your gearset is what matters. And a Pre-T5 Gearset with the Cyclas will be better than a gearset with the Fuma.
I mean, if you're going to argue using a worse gearset, why bother upgrading your gear at all?

Not sure if you are just not reading my posts right. But I am not saying that the Fuma is BiS...I am saying that if you have sufficient accuracy that the Fuma is an alternative.

Selective reading I suppose.

So the lesson learn is that weapon dmg + str eats everything.

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Originally Posted by Nash20

Not sure if you are just not reading my posts right. But I am not saying that the Fuma is BiS...I am saying that if you have sufficient accuracy that the Fuma is an alternative.

Selective reading I suppose.

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I think you didn't actually read my post. "it lets you offload accuracy elsewhere for better gains." Whether you're accuracy capped or not should have no bearing on getting the fuma or cyclas, by getting the Cyclas you can drop accuracy in the rest of your gear and end up better off than if you were to get the fuma.

But you are making it sound that Allagan gear falls from the sky. I have been in Coil for months, haven't got 1 left side drop. Guess I am just unlucky. So, filling in Myth on other pieces I am over the acc cap, making it pointless to stack even more acc.

Again, I am not saying Fuma is BiS... I am saying it is an alternative if you already have acc capped and are waiting to fill out on Allagan gear.

Yeah, that last modifier is pretty important.
I guess I am lucky though, I got all my allagan gear in three weeks

That is quite lucky.

My static could've geared Tanks and Healers 4 times over by now. >.<

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

stuff

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it is as a balance in the entirety of my set i made. melee is an awfully statted piece of armor, comparing 2 pieces out of 12 is not going to give you an accurate comparison.

example, plug true strike into DM's calc, comparing the 2 sets

(1.9) x [((0.00032 x 482 + 0.4162) x 46) + (0.1 x 482 - 0.3529) + ((342-202) x 0.035))] x (1 + (0.5 x (0.0693 x 463 - 18.486) / 100)) = 160.28 avg ws for mine

(1.9) x [((0.00032 x 486 + 0.4162) x 46) + (0.1 x 486 - 0.3529) + ((304-202) x 0.035))] x (1 + (0.5 x (0.0693 x 477 - 18.486) / 100)) = 159.23 for melee+alla pants

statistically, it is inferior when used in my set for balancing stats; comparatively, you say only overmelding would make up for stats, fuma might as well be overmelded, because youre dropping 38 determination for 4 str and a paltry amount of crit. the acc is made up, so in a fair comparison between my set and his suggested switch, it IS inferior

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Originally Posted by monkguy

statistically, it is inferior when used in my set for balancing stats; comparatively, you say only overmelding would make up for stats, fuma might as well be overmelded, because youre dropping 38 determination for 4 str and a paltry amount of crit. the acc is made up, so in a fair comparison between my set and his suggested switch, it IS inferior

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Totally ignoring SS for the win.

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Originally Posted by monkguy

statistically, it is inferior when used in my set for balancing stats; comparatively, you say only overmelding would make up for stats, fuma might as well be overmelded, because youre dropping 38 determination for 4 str and a paltry amount of crit. the acc is made up, so in a fair comparison between my set and his suggested switch, it IS inferior

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No, you are dropping 21 determination and 21 crit for 24 SS and 34 accuracy.
You're backstepping with this whole my set business. You saying the fuma is a worse piece in isolation. That is simply incorrect.
I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I don't want people to start thinking the fuma is simply the best chest available until T5. It isn't, but it may be a good option depending on your drops.

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Originally Posted by monkguy

@ Allyrion

dont forget about the fuma one, it's statistically stronger than melee, and far easier to obtain than a turn 5 drop some monks may never see.

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Originally Posted by monkguy

except in this case, the secondary stats are so much better than the little bit of extra strength melee offers that it literally is statistically stronger.

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Saying the accuracy is made up is misleading when there are a decent options to drop accuracy in other places. Almost all the accessories have this option and the Hellish claws is an accuracy drop as well.
I understand if your set is what it is because of the drops you got and your luck. I understand sticking with the Fuma if you'd have too much accuracy otherwise and no extra pieces to lower it with.
Just don't say that the secondary stats of the Fuma inherently make it better than the Melee.
Skill Speed is not worthless. It might be our best stat if it affected auto attacks. Since it doesn't, it's our worst but not by the margin people seem to think.

The Determination on the Fuma is worth something like 4.62 strength. The SS on the Melee is 3.5.
The accuracy value (assuming you can use it) more than makes up for the crit and some of that determination difference.
Then the Melee still has its 4 strength advantage.

Also, in case you ask - why isn't the Fuma a decent accuracy drop? Because it is 4 strength lower. You can drop the accuracy somewhere else and not sacrifice your second most valuable that (by a significant margin).

You're right that whole sets should be compared.
I bet you anything that you plug in a proper Melee set, it will be better than any with the fuma.
ziddyt provided a decent one in another thread - http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/5738/MNK-Gearset
Compare that to any full set with the fuma and it will lose.

NOTE: As I said before, I'm not saying wearing a fuma set is bad. I even suggested it for a gearing up mnk here.
It's a decent chest till you even get the T5 one. But don't pretend it's not inferior to a proper Melee set. If you got the Melee chest, you need to adjust for it. That's true for gearing up in general, you make your set works.


If the Melee chest is worth 2 weeks for 4 strength difference or even if you're not lucky enough to have other accuracy drops, is a whole different discussion.
If you wanted to put it that way, you could've just said the fuma works well for your set and it's decent enough till you get T5. Like Nash did.
You've been pretty adamant that the Melee is simply statistically inferior, not even mentioning that's just subjective to your own luck and situation. It's misleading.

it has nothing to do with my "luck" or "other acc drops" or whatever subjective nonsense you're getting at; i DID say "you could've just said the fuma works well for your set and it's decent enough till you get T5" because it literally is. i linked the armor set last page, if you didnt look at it, you should stop with your selective reading.

there is no "stepping back" or claiming "melee < fuma," what's being argued here is that within the gear set i linked, fuma is the best body slot for it available pre turn 5.

i see im wasting breath on someone who just doesnt get it. the melee cyclas is just a plain awful armor, simple and easy.

by the way, linking a drg wardrobe doesnt help your case.

Alright, I see your set now.
Here's the alternate set using your website, since you missed it somehow (clicking that link still leads to a mnk set to me).
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LHN1
I compared it using Valk's to your set

And it does come out on ahead. Using True's 190 potency, Twin Snakes, Fists of Fire and their GL3 buff

Your set
Crit Adjusted WS DPS - 188.324 dps
Crit Adjusted AA DPS - 86.542 dps
Chance Of Critical Hit - 7.7 %

Melee set
Crit Adjusted WS DPS - 196.37 dps
Crit Adjusted AA DPS - 88.52 dps
Chance Of Critical Hit - 13.35 %

Also, why does your set have accuracy of 464? That's too low. Valk's calculator assumes no misses so it's not even a fair comparison if you're below the cap.
With that said, it still loses.

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Originally Posted by monkguy

there is no "stepping back" or claiming "melee < fuma," what's being argued here is that within the gear set i linked, fuma is the best body slot for it available pre turn 5.

i see im wasting breath on someone who just doesnt get it. the melee cyclas is just a plain awful armor, simple and easy.

by the way, linking a drg wardrobe doesnt help your case.

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You said "except in this case, the secondary stats are so much better than the little bit of extra strength melee offers that it literally is statistically stronger."

You keep saying something that isn't true and pretending you are right even though the math on the sites you are using says you are wrong. That makes you special.