[DEV1032] If you want class uniqueness , Make weapon skills unique to the class!

Hello everyone ,

For the keepsake of uniqueness the ws of a class should stay binded to that class , its not a hard process as per say . for sure allot of people will claim that ws are part of the horizontal growth, my view is simple abilities should be sharable to a extent (a.e speed surge) not weapon skill's , it make no sense that an archer can leg sweep a mob, honestly how the hell can he manage that or a lancer doing victimize seriously or maurauder doing flashfreeze. its like having a drk from 11 doing azuran fist . its just too messed up .

1- Job system revamp.
2- ???
3- Shut up until it's out.

completely disagre.

wow what a cultured responce there ilean /clap dark if you disagree please tell more about why .
as for me its just plain logical that at some point stuff has to be restricted.

Sigh, can we just let the developers develop? I can't imagine how many asprins they need to take from constant demands of the things we know they're working on for the better of the game. Just wait until it's out and then gripe if you still don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Laucian

wow what a cultured responce there ilean /clap dark if you disagree please tell more about why .
as for me its just plain logical that at some point stuff has to be restricted.

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i pwn at responcing culturefully

I don't even disagree with you, and I made clear why.

lul

Devtag fail.

thanks for a better responce Ilean , as for being patient , yes i know that we should wait for the upcoming changes but due to the lack of actual details of any type of change. And remember they don't mind our input as long as its contructive.

how can the tag be fail when its precisly what it implies plz read the tag note befor posting and stay on topic thank you.


[dev1032] Changes to actions for Disciplines of War & Magic classes

Further changes to enhance class uniqueness
Adjustment of certain action effects in line with the introduction of dungeons
Adjustment of range of effect for actions (single target or area)
Adjustment of recast time and MP consumption for actions
Development of unique motions and effects for certain weapon skills

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Originally Posted by Laucian

wow what a cultured responce there ilean /clap dark if you disagree please tell more about why .
as for me its just plain logical that at some point stuff has to be restricted.

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ok you want to know why. the game was advertised as being able to use your skills from one class on another. you use certain abilities and i do believe there should be some restrictions, but to say lock all skills is way too far. quite frankly i enjoy being able to fill multiple roles in a party and being more involved. i enjoy the feeling of being able to rank up said class to get a skill to make my character better. if it were not for that i would have left after i got my first class to 50 as i would have had no more reason to play.

this game went on the idea that you can advance your individual character and not be stuck in one pre defined spot. i do not want to be stuck for hours trying to get a party because one certain type of player is needed for one thing when i already have the ability to be able to get started. i know the new jobs will be additional and i have no more of an idea than you do of what to expect from them. i hope they build onto the armory system and make the system as a whole better, but do not destroy the fundamental aspects that drew alot to the game to start with.

I think within reason that this is a viable idea.

But for the most part, no, leave it as is.
I enjoy that when I switch to my GLD, my character doesn't magically forget everything he knows about spells just because he has a sword in his hand instead of a scepter. Just like (and I know this will change soon) I don't think it makes much sense to have a ban on what gear you can equip at certain ranks.

The old argument: "Oh, I'm level X. I won't understand how to put on that boot on my foot until I'm level X+2." comes to mind.

Skills are the same way.

"I've trained for ages as a CON. I'm a master of the elements. Awh, damn. I can't use my knowledge because I have a lance in my hands."

And to an extent, this should be true, I agree. But it's already implemented. A THM can't Multi-Shot, because, well...They don't have a bow in their hands, and somehow multi-shotting out of a staff seems silly. If they locked the WS, then they limit the classes which are supposed to be very mix-matchy and open. Jobs, hell yes, limit the mess out of them. But amp up their power with their stricter ruleset.

i am not saying anything about spell just the weapons skill , abilities and magic are fine. make no sense that a gld can levinbolt seriously .

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Originally Posted by Laucian

how can the tag be fail when its precisly what it implies plz read the tag note befor posting and stay on topic thank you.

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Because you didn't actually tag the thread, you just put it in your title... Look at the bottom of the page. ^^

we have to make a line between abilities spells and weapon skills

thanks zozo i didnt know about the bottom

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Originally Posted by Laucian

thanks zozo i didnt know about the bottom

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tagged it for you ;)

thanks bud

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Originally Posted by Laucian

i am not saying anything about spell just the weapons skill , abilities and magic are fine. make no sense that a gld can levinbolt seriously .

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oh no if you want to gimp magic classes by locking weaponskills you need to do the same the other way. i just want to ask something though. i know you want all weaponskills stopped from being cross classed, but look at the majority of the abilities and its own description. even in the skills description the majority don't specify a weapon.

i'll give a few from archer and let you decide what should be restricted.

Puncture - Apply full force to your attack, dealing projectile damage to the target and all enemies in-between.

Shadowbind - Fetter an enemy's shadow, rendering the target immobile.

Wide Volley - Launch a wide-ranged assault, dealing projectile damage to the target and nearby enemies.

Scouring Strike - Deliver a debilitating attack, dealing projectile damage and removing an enhancement effect from the target.

Arrow Helix - Loose arrows in all directions, dealing projectile damage to enemies a certain distance from you.

by their own descriptions only one of these should be restricted to archer and that is arrow helix....it is also the only one of the group that IS restricted to archer. they do have a few like shrieker that should be bound to archer as it specifies arrow in its description, but the rest say with your weapon or a certain type of attack. just because the animations are messed up for example with wide volley it does not say arrows, but you see the arrows rain down in the animation. it was just a bad job done by the animation crew or a bad description.

The coherency of the posts makes me wonder about the education level of the people posting. Please proofread your posts so that it's at least somewhat readable rather than making others having to read it multiple times in order to decipher your meaning.

On a more relevant note, I'm going to have to agree with Ilean. Wait for the job system to be released, see how it impacts the playstyle, and if it is lackluster, take further action.

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Originally Posted by Laucian

Hello everyone ,

For the keepsake of uniqueness the ws of a class should stay binded to that class , its not a hard process as per say . for sure allot of people will claim that ws are part of the horizontal growth, my view is simple abilities should be sharable to a extent (a.e speed surge) not weapon skill's , it make no sense that an archer can leg sweep a mob, honestly how the hell can he manage that or a lancer doing victimize seriously or maurauder doing flashfreeze. its like having a drk from 11 doing azuran fist . its just too messed up .

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We've gone over this many times. The final conclusion is this: It's that ability to cross-class weaponskills and abilities that sets this game apart from the other MMOs.

That discussion is over.

Consequently, this thread is finished.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

ok you want to know why. the game was advertised as being able to use your skills from one class on another. you use certain abilities and i do believe there should be some restrictions, but to say lock all skills is way too far. quite frankly i enjoy being able to fill multiple roles in a party and being more involved. i enjoy the feeling of being able to rank up said class to get a skill to make my character better. if it were not for that i would have left after i got my first class to 50 as i would have had no more reason to play.

this game went on the idea that you can advance your individual character and not be stuck in one pre defined spot. i do not want to be stuck for hours trying to get a party because one certain type of player is needed for one thing when i already have the ability to be able to get started. i know the new jobs will be additional and i have no more of an idea than you do of what to expect from them. i hope they build onto the armory system and make the system as a whole better, but do not destroy the fundamental aspects that drew alot to the game to start with.

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If you fail in seeing that something like you imagined it is not working out in the end, you should have considered not starting XIV at all. There will always be the time where classes will be set to a predefined spot(Gladiator not having Emulate? lol gtfo). the only thing that makes it still viable to play as whatever you want with whatever abilities you want is the fact that there is no need for cookiecutting yet since...

1. Stats/Effort don't matter so cookiecutting would have no effect whatsoever.

2. Content doesn't really demand/support cookiecutting yet.

BUT...and this is a big BUT. That time will come. People will expect you to have specific things and/or specific classes leveled, otherwise you will be neglected. It's bound to happen and if you fail to see that and think all classes should have access to all abilities, you are pretty much killing your own argument there, cause it will give cookiecutters even more possibilities to predefine "your" spot.

Just a simple example. You are a MRD, wanting to deal dmg, not tank. You apply to a serious endgame linkshell. First question will be, do you have ARC and LNC high enough so you got Raging Strike 2 and Ferocity 2? Yes/No? Accepted/L2P!...that's how its gonna end up...

weapon skill are not abilities to rank a class to get its abilities i am all for it , but to see every one have twisting vise = not unique .

hell having colusion for the threat transfer is going to be a must unless you want to die in dungeons

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Originally Posted by Laucian

weapon skill are not abilities to rank a class to get its abilities i am all for it , but to see every one have twisting vise = not unique .

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Twisting Vice - Stab and twist, dealing piercing damage and wiping out the target's TP.

ok so you are saying that only lancer can stab something.

I disagree however if you read through the Battle Reform Blueprint he states:


"We will also make a number of changes as part of our reexamination of how actions are equipped and the character requirements for doing so. First, actions learned by each class will be set to the action bar by default when playing as that class. Also, we will be making some actions settable on any class, while other "class-defining" actions obtained at higher ranks will be usable only by that class."

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...form-Blueprint

So clearly there will be some class defining skills/weapons skills and then there will be run of the mill skills that any and all can use.

I kind of like this better than the system in 11 since it doesn't break certain classes at higher levels since they can make some really good skills (**cough** Convert **cough**) only usable by the respectable class.

@ OP

This thread has been covered before with the same exact replies you're seeing now.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...original-class.

Many seem to assume "Weapon Skills" = all abilities & magic.

I'm also in favor of WSs, or at least the majority of them, remain class specific, while abilities and magic remain interchangeable. It makes designing unique animations for WSs much less work for the dev which means higher quality visual effects. It also helps define each class, something the game definitely needs.

I think you'll find it difficult to convince anyone to agree with you who doesn't already. Fact is, the game was designed with one vision, but that vision completely failed. Yea, early release is part of it, but if that was the only reason, they wouldn't be redoing the core mechanics of the game as we speak. Their vision failed, and things need to change, that's all.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

@ OP

This thread has been covered before with the same exact replies you're seeing now.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...original-class.

Many seem to assume "Weapon Skills" = all abilities & magic.

I'm also in favor of WSs, or at least the majority of them, remain class specific, while abilities and magic remain interchangeable. It makes designing unique animations for WSs much less work for the dev which means higher quality visual effects. It also helps define each class, something the game definitely needs.

I think you'll find it difficult to convince anyone to agree with you who doesn't already. Fact is, the game was designed with one vision, but that vision completely failed. Yea, early release is part of it, but if that was the only reason, they wouldn't be redoing the core mechanics of the game as we speak. Their vision failed, and things need to change, that's all.

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they're redoing it as part of the knee jerk reaction that removed the staff with that vision. the reason the system did nt work is they had too many other issues that people picked each one and made it a major flame fest.

this system would have been fine with more difficult mobs and that not any moron could kill any mob by pressing 1,1,1,1,1. with the auto attack you will now have those same people sitting and not touching any button while the game does it by itself.

you say remain, but i don't think you have heard anyone say that all should be cross classed. i think even the people that are most supportive of cross class abilities understands that there needs to be some limitations on certain skills. i actually wish there were more of them myself, but do not want to see the way it is setup now completely destroyed in the process.

if you are to make all weapon skills class specific to their respective class then you need to make magic class specific to magic classes. nobody wants that because they want to be able to heal themselves, but they do not want to see someone else on another class using their super awesome skill that only they should have. if you want to change all the attacks that the mages use off other classes then all skills from a mage should be removed from them.

To be honest I think that they way they have made the class system was a mistake from the beginning and was the remnant of the original plan that was removed before launch.

The original idea was to let Physical Level dictate your Job as it were, it being a blank slate completely devoid of any skills and abilities. Then you would build a job by unlocking skills and abilities through mastery of weapons and build a custom job of your own and distribute stats as you saw fit to build a completely unique character the way your saw fit. They switched it around though and made Class Rank dominant. This has thrown everything out of whack as it has essentially made Classes Jobs but because they weren't designed to be Jobs it has just created a mess of the system and everything lacks definition as they were designed to help you build your own custom class. Though you can still cross class things it has been scaled back from it's original design and this is why it is all a bit meh.

For me I would love it if they just did away with the weapon=class system, I want Job's that define themselves and that can use a variety of weapons. So if I am a PLD I can use a G. Sword or a Sword and Shield, if I am a SAM I can use a G.Katana or Polearm. I want the freedom to use different weapons for different situations but depending on the Job would depend on how skilled I am with that weapon. FFXI did this very well, it allowed you to use multiple weapons and depending on the Job they would cap at different ranks so some would be better choices than others.

Of course along with this they should definitely lock weapon skills to the weapon to help make them unique, this would also help with animations as they wouldn't have to model every single weapon skill for every single weapon.

You can see SE are trying to move in this direction with the implementation of Job's to define the classes but now they just need to go that extra bit and make the classes stand on their own. With the removal of the Physical Leve we may see this as what will happen with EXP. EXP would be used for your Class Rank, so for example a MRD would gain all it's skills and abilities as it levelled up from EXP minus the weapon skills and then the weapon you wield would level up on SP unlocking Weapon Skills and your proficiency with the weapon.

Most likely that will not happen but damn I wish they would just do it, it feels like the way they are approaching it is to just stick a plaster over the issue.

Thanks MeowyWowie nice read on that thread . and i still find it really funny how people view weapon skills as being every single ability, trait, spell. cure = spell any thing using similar mechanic , Raging strike = ability fleet of foot = trait
barrage = weapon skill And this is what should be restricted . it not so hard to see now is it.

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Originally Posted by Laucian

Thanks MeowyWowie nice read on that thread . and i still find it really funny how people view weapon skills as being every single ability, trait, spell. cure = spell any thing using similar mechanic , Raging strike = ability fleet of foot = trait
barrage = weapon skill And this is what should be restricted . it not so hard to see now is it.

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no, people actually do understand and just do not agree as many have stated.