Tried out PvP with WHM and SCH...made me reconsider PvE choice.

My main character is WHM, love it. Occasionally play as SCH, but still like WHM more.
Before patch 2.1, I already had all DoM classes to lv50.
Main WHM has Relic +1, average iLvl at 86.
The rest (SCH, SMN, BLM) have only Relic +0, mainly in DarkLights, with SCH sharing some of WHM post-DarkLight pieces.

This weekend, I started to try out PvP, randomly playing with all 4 DoM classes to get some taste and experience, then bought Purity and Equanimity at rank 6. Retried with SCH and WHM, until rank 7.

I must say, I nearly hop on SCH bandwagon after my lil' PvP tryouts. Playing as SCH in PvP is much more easier and "powerful"/"in-control" than WHM, mainly due to all kinds of utilities available to SCH. So much so, that it even makes me reconsider my choice for PvE.

Here's a score-list that I made when I try to decide if I should focus pvp-ing with SCH or WHM.
I ended up mixing PvE considerations in it halfway through. So not every item in this list is PvP-orientated.
This list is made with "WHM vs SCH" in-mind, for decision-making. Since I am leaning towards WHM, [1] = WHM wins, [-1] = SCH wins, [0] = neutral/note.

Here we go:
[1] Holy (AoE DPS + Stun)
[0] Holy impossible to pull-off without Swiftcast (PvP), even with Swiftcast, long animation time.
[1] Fluid Aura (knockback + bind)
[1] Protect
[1] Stonewall
[1] Stone (slow)
[1] Benediction
[-1] Benediction cooldown too long (pvp)
[1] AoE Heals
[0] AoE Heals hardly used (pvp, teammates scattered)
[1] Regen + Medica II mini-regen pre-battle (pvp).
[1] Divine Seal
[1] Repose
[0] Repose (pvp), more often than not, cost Swiftcast to pull-off. Swiftcast is very valuable.
[1] Presence of Mind
[-1] Presence of Mind cooldown too long (pvp)
[0] WHM can use 1h + shield, has trade-offs.
[0] WHM Burst DPS. SCH DoT DPS, but free to heal after setting-up DoTs.
[-1] WHM limiting MP factor.
[-1] WHM when revived, mp big prob. SCH can regain quickly.
[-1] WHM heal procs totally unreliable (can't be specced to improve), SCH crit proc is spec-able to improve chance, gives double shield.
[-1] SCH awesome healbot (pet)
[-1] SCH has alternative offensive pet if intensive healing not required, can even silence.
[-1] SCH insta-cast blind (Ruin II).
[-1] Miasma II insta-cast, reduce hp healed + slow, hit multiple targets, great when many melee chasing.
[-1] Miasma II insta-cast aoe through wall, interrupt cast-time spells (PvP). Holy can hit through wall too, but impossible to be used as interrupt due to long cast time and animation time. Even if used with swiftcast, long animation time (both swiftcast + Holy) still makes it quite impossible/highly likely to fail.
[-1] If WHM's teammates hit by SCH insta-cast Miasma II decease, needs multiple cast-time Esuna to clear before cast-time heal. 1 insta-cast = costs multiple cast-time. WHM team at disadvantage vs SCH team.
[-1] Fluid Aura affects only 1 person. Miasma affects multiples, plus decease.
[-1] Lustrate, can be used 3 times every 1 min (75% hp), or 6 times in a burst if saved-up.
[-1] Lustrate is very great for PvP compared to Benediction, because unlike PvE where boss can often nearly one-shot player or where mechanics requires healing to full (such as Pharos), in PvP it's preferable to have low cooldown sufficient heals to deal with highly dynamic situation.
[-1] Enhanced Eye for an Eye is awesome (pvp + pve).
[-1] Enhanced Virus is awesome (pvp + pve).
[-1] Sacred Soil is awesome (pvp + pve).
[0] Succor AoE less heal but has shield.

I didn't even need to weight/sum the points up. SCH vs WHM is so great in PvP, I feel as if I am handicapping my team if I play as WHM...But I still find playing as WHM more fun and rewarding, probably due to the challenges, so I have no plan of switching, I'll just train till I get better in PvP. Still, wish to put the list I made out here, to see if others share the same feeling.

Lustrate makes me hope that Benediction's cooldown time becomes 1mins, but insta-heal 50% hp.
Miasma II makes me hope WHM gets a debuff that will reduce hp healed for enemies in PvP too.

I really hope WHMs can be made on-par with SCH in future patches, both PvP and PvE-wise.


TL;DR: another blatant WHM vs SCH thread. No, don't worry, not asking to nerf SCH, because I am playing one too.

pvp with whm, my main job, is awfull. run stun run..bored

Benediction is fine. The CD isn't really that extreme for its purpose. I guarantee if the CD was dropped any all the Scholar mains would cry about it.

I feel your pain for PvP, I really do. However I will probably just Scholar for PvP and WHM for PvE.
There hasn't been a single moment in PvE yet where I've thought "should've rolled Scholar" lol.
I'm sure they will come up with a way to balance the PvP a bit, but I really don't think either healing class needs to be brought closer to the other in PvE. Both fit their niche nicely.

You realize it makes no sense to decide to do PVE Scholar based on PVP, right? I mean...really.

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Originally Posted by Alexia89

Benediction is fine. The CD isn't really that extreme for its purpose. I guarantee if the CD was dropped any all the Scholar mains would cry about it.

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On a side note: Not every SCH would cry about it. My main is SCH and I agree that the benediction CD is way too long. 1.5-2min would suffice (and a 90% heal cuz most of the time 10% goes as overheal). Not to mention that the animation is way to long and the target is sometimes dead and benediction is on CD. The last point could be just my issue tho^^.

Yeah. The animation needs to be fixed- devastating to have the target die before animation finishes but still have it go on CD :(

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Originally Posted by Alexia89

Yeah. The animation needs to be fixed- devastating to have the target die before animation finishes but still have it go on CD :(

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I don't understand any arguement agaisnt this. What is the difference between applying the hp increase instantly then later aesthetic wise instant heal can make sense. The benediction animation just could just be magical aftermath.
FFxi benediction was an instant pt heal even with its lengthy animation?

I have my animations turned off anyway , so i don't even care.

Lustrate and benediction should apply heal at the start of the animation , not at the end.

Stoneskin is a huge offender too. Perhaps even the worst of the bunch? Though its closely tied with benediction.

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Originally Posted by cainejw

You realize it makes no sense to decide to do PVE Scholar based on PVP, right? I mean...really.

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I guess you went straight for TLDR, without reading through all the items I listed. Not all of them is purely PvP related.
As for a summary:
- WHM once dead, no good way to regain MP without help from bard. SCH can hold on its own.
- WHM heal-procs totally unreliable, but SCH can spec to improve chance...plus extra shield with that...
- Too long cooldown for Benediction. Lustrate is more reliable.
- Presence of Mind cooldown too long.

And as I said, I like WHM so not going to switch, but SCH is much more versatile with more tricks under their sleeves, and less MP limiting. These traits are very favorable for dynamic situations, such as one in PvP, but even more icing on the cake for PvE.
The strength of WHM (AoE healing) becomes too situational to use in PvP. But as for SCH? It's only better. So much better, that I feel guilty to be WHM for my team, if the opponent team has SCH.
In PvP, WHM is totally eclipsed by SCH:
- Better mobility (more instacasts)
- Healbot+distraction (pet with hp pool)
- Much more and better utilities (enhanced virus + EfaE, blind, Miasma II, Sacred Soil + Shadow Flare)
- Better style of healing:
-- Lustrate >>> Benediction
-- Strength of WHM (AoE Heal) becomes moot in PvP: AoE heal very situational for PvP due to scattered teammates and etc.
-- Miasma II = anti-healing, which makes the team with WHM much harder to heal, handicapped, because for each target that insta-cast Miasma affected, WHM need to pull-off two cast-time spells: Esuna + Heal. FOR. EACH. AFFECTED. TARGET.

I am not asking for SCH nerf, but simply wish that WHM can be equally good.

WHM has Shroud. WHM can go Crit. Lustrate shares resources with Energy Drain, Bane, and Sacred Soil whereas Benediction doesn't. SCH doesn't have a spell speed buff innate to the class. They have to rely on a faerie.

SCH is supposed to be more versatile. That's the entire point.

A WHM is good. This is, frankly, another QQ post by a WHM saying, "The grass is greener on the other side!" No, it's not. SCH doesn't have a reliable heal over time. We cannot AOE heal with the same power. WHM has Cure III, Medica, and Medica II. SCH has Succor and maybe Whispering Dawn. Succor is 150, Whispering Dawn is 100 potency. Medica is 300 potency, Medica II is 200, and Cure III is 550 potency.

Scholar gets Physick, an equal to Cure I. To get closed to the power of Cure II (650), Scholars have to use Adloquium (300) with Embrace (300). Even then, we lack 50 potency on you there.

WHMs can generate more healing on single targets AND group targets. They can do it in strong bursts or over time. They can have weak heals and incredibly strong heals WITH multiple kinds of procs. SCH get many tools to address offsets of weaker heals. That's our tradeoff as scholars. You get the glory of huge numbers. I get the mitigation and the hard work for my heals to be split among me and my faerie.

Frankly, if you want the tools, you need to give up the power and eat some nerfs. Buffing SCH is out of the question as it would require a complete rebalancing of fights with so much healing ability from every class. If we make the classes like each other, there's no reason to be anything but a WHM in either PVP or PVE.

Think an Aoe esuna would fix the pvp situation vs the instant aoe status ailments. Think it would be balanced, pvp only with short CD this way SCH has the AOE disease miasma II but WHM has AOE remove 1 effect at a time.

Yes it seems you like SCH more, and you should play which ever you like. I guess that is the point of the thread. The list is def bias toward Sch getting + points only from your opinion and not just the black and white usefulness of the abilities. Also some abilities far out weigh others, so just a + and - judging of them seems very ignorant of the overall usefulness of the skills being judged. But in the end in PVP and PVE it is the guy behind the keyboard more then the class they are playing.

It's actually had the opposite affect for me. I enjoy WHM a LOT more than SCH in pvp. SCH in pvp is so... brain dead, lol. No skill required. (Well, maybe a LITTLE)

I've been considering swapping to WHM, except my coil static requires me as SCH, lol.

Also, as a healer DO NOT EVER go into PvP without Surecast. only a 30second cooldown, and next spell you cast with it on cannot be interrupted.

A) Double whm comps in PVE are pretty solid.
B) SCH getting huge PVP nerf soon.
C) Play what you like. There will always be an FOTM. Don't lick it.

@cainejw
You use Shroud as if that's the solution to MP issue...and you say "WHM can go crit too"...Guess you didn't know Shroud doesn't scale, and WHM with crit is far lesser than SCH with crit due to the awesome shield proc scaling, while WHM can only depends on RNG-god?

"SCH doesn't have a spell speed buff innate to the class. They have to rely on a faerie."
Are you joking? Do you know how a pity is that "spell speed buff" with such a long cooldown, and you are comparing it by saying "SCH have to rely on a faerie"?? A mini-healbot with its own hp pool, ever-healing even if the caster is stunned/silenced (unlike a team with WHM), can swap between defensive/offensive situation, one even have silence, inherits spellspeed stat from caster, and omg I don't even want to continue.../facepalm

All that you speak, is about PvE Healing. In that aspect alone, there's already a huge thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...red-to-Scholar
For all your PvE arguments, you can read it all there, I wouldn't want to waste time reiterate.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let's assume WHM is totally equal in PvE compared with SCH, so:
Why shouldn't WHM able to be equal with SCH in PvP as well? Why deny us to be on-par?
I am not asking to nerf SCH, only wish that WHM can be as good by having more utilities, and a useful secondary stat like SCH. Nevermind the mode-swapping-sidekick.
Understand this: by making WHM on par with SCH doesn't mean people will never need SCH anymore, your position will never be threatened, I am not asking for exact same skills as SCH, I am not trying to make WHM replaces SCH in PvE or PvP. I just point out the obvious disadvantage of using WHM in a PvP team compared with SCH, so both healer choice have equal pros, unlike now which is mostly cons for WHM.

@fraeblood
Not sure if you actually read.

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Originally Posted by fraeblood

Yes it seems you like SCH more, and you should play which ever you like.

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I stated at least 2 times that I love WHM more than SCH, that's why I am still sticking with it, just hoping it gets more balanced.

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Originally Posted by fraeblood

I guess that is the point of the thread.

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No guessing needed, the point of the thread is stated very clearly...you did read it, I hope.

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Originally Posted by fraeblood

The list is def bias toward Sch getting + points only from your opinion and not just the black and white usefulness of the abilities. Also some abilities far out weigh others, so just a + and - judging of them seems very ignorant of the overall usefulness of the skills being judged.

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And yes of course, as I already stated: I am biased towards WHM when I list it, that's why WHM gets +, SCH gets -, because I like WHM more. Oh you didn't read that either. Surprise.
Yes, they are all + and -, and as I said (I hope you did read this): I didn't even bother to weight, because it's too obviously lopsided. If you actually read the whole lists, played some pvp, read this list again, and still didn't find it obvious that SCH >>> WHM in PvP, well...I wouldn't waste any more breathe.

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Originally Posted by JonFarron

It's actually had the opposite affect for me. I enjoy WHM a LOT more than SCH in pvp. SCH in pvp is so... brain dead, lol. No skill required. (Well, maybe a LITTLE)

I've been considering swapping to WHM, except my coil static requires me as SCH, lol.

Also, as a healer DO NOT EVER go into PvP without Surecast. only a 30second cooldown, and next spell you cast with it on cannot be interrupted.

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I have both Surecast and Equanimity, and use them in every single match. And no, it's not uninterruptable, it still can be interrupted by Stun. I rarely hit by silence or knockback, but I bet they can interrupt Surecast/Equanimity too.
At this stage, I do not want to argue if Surecast/Equanimity should be actually what it says it is: SURE-cast. It's too early to judge at this stage, and it will affect ALL CASTERS, not just healers, so I am in no position to argue, yet. In short, I am fine with it, for now.


Anyway, despite everything said, from bottom of my heart: Happy Heavensturn everyone :) "Embrace your inner horse"!

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTheGuest

@cainejw
You use Shroud as if that's the solution to MP issue...and you say "WHM can go crit too"...Guess you didn't know Shroud doesn't scale, and WHM with crit is far lesser than SCH with crit due to the awesome shield proc scaling, while WHM can only depends on RNG-god?

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Doesn't matter. You still have it. You can complain that it isn't equal all you want, but the reality is that it shouldn't be equal. WHM is not SCH, and homogenization of classes isn't what FFXIV is doing.

And in doing simulations, the shield is not what makes crit "awesome." That's a big number that scholars think is making their healing superior. It's a crit Physick that makes crit pull away from other stats due to the high frequency of cast. SCH cannot cast exclusively Adloquium without going out of MP in roughly 1 minute. You can still use crit, and the scaling appears to be the same for all classes...the difference is that you think crit Adloquiums make more of a difference than they actually do because PVP matches are a sleep-fest.

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Are you joking? Do you know how a pity is that "spell speed buff" with such a long cooldown, and you are comparing it by saying "SCH have to rely on a faerie"?? A mini-healbot with its own hp pool, ever-healing even if the caster is stunned/silenced (unlike a team with WHM), can swap between defensive/offensive situation, one even have silence, inherits spellspeed stat from caster, and omg I don't even want to continue.../facepalm

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Eos and Selene require management. Up until 2.0, that management was very questionable. Now, we have macros that can make Eos or Selene heal to a solid potential. How solid? On any parse, a WHM should heal roughly 50-40% of the healing of the fight. This is due to overhealing on Medica II and Regen continuously being counted as healing. We have no indication of how much of their healing is "real healing" but we'll assume it's still a good amount.

Now, for the Scholar, depending on the gear setup, you would expect to see 40-30% of the healing. The other 30-20% should be Eos and less for Selene. Now, why is that? The fact that almost a third of Scholar healing is cut off onto the pet. That's why. Scholar heals are weaker, by design, to force usage of the pet. That means our output is directly related to how we can manage Eos or Selene. We know that it also appears that neither will use Embrace until around 80-75% of health. That means that the Scholar, if they do not manage their pet, will lose healing output. This means that the faeries are not "healbots" as you so claim. They are extensions of the Scholar and, as such, much be managed in full. We now have those tools.

And no, the faerie will not always function if the caster is locked down. If our bar is locked, their bar is locked, especially now that the faeries are almost always on Obey and macroed to embrace on Physick and Adloquium in attempt to increase our healing output.

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All that you speak, is about PvE Healing. In that aspect alone, there's already a huge thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...red-to-Scholar
For all your PvE arguments, you can read it all there, I wouldn't want to waste time reiterate.

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I responded to this thread that is about PVP healing informing a PVE decision. In as such, the conversation is two-fold. I'm not interested in mindless whining that WHM's Medica II lasts longer for lesser healing, you guys have to start using Cure III, and Lustrate allows SCH to actually have some sort of emergency backup. I get it. You want everything SCH has without any of the drawbacks.

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Now, for the sake of discussion, let's assume WHM is totally equal in PvE compared with SCH, so:
Why shouldn't WHM able to be equal with SCH in PvP as well? Why deny us to be on-par?

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SCH are being nerfed in PVP soon. The chief complaints concerning SCH in PVP are Lustrate and Miasma. You're likely to hear your cries heard on both of these fronts. However, I choose not to play PVP. It's a mess. It always turns classes against each other in demands of NERF HIM NERF HIM. Like, oh, WHMs demanding that SCH be nerfed.

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I am not asking to nerf SCH, only wish that WHM can be as good by having more utilities, and a useful secondary stat like SCH. Nevermind the mode-swapping-sidekick.

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SCH has two secondary stats of near equal power. Crit and Det. Additionally, Eos/Selene do not "swap modes." I don't know where you get this silly idea that Eos is for healing, Selene is for DPSing or buffing. Selene can help healers. Eos can help DPS. They're not exclusive.

What you're asking is for one of two things: SCH to be brought down to your level or WHM to be brought up to SCH level by giving WHM the tools SCH has. If you give WHM the tools of a SCH, why would anyone play SCH? There's no reason to play a class with weaker heals that requires a pet to be equal to WHM when WHM has all of the tools SCH has. Either way, you are asking for SCH to see a change that would fundamentally destroy any reason to be a SCH in PVP or PVE.

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Understand this: by making WHM on par with SCH doesn't mean people will never need SCH anymore, your position will never be threatened, I am not asking for exact same skills as SCH, I am not trying to make WHM replaces SCH in PvE or PvP. I just point out the obvious disadvantage of using WHM in a PvP team compared with SCH, so both healer choice have equal pros, unlike now which is mostly cons for WHM.

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I'm sorry to be vulgar, but bullshit. You are demanding that WHM get the tools a SCH has or tools equal to those tools. You propose NOTHING as an alternative for SCH to then remain viable. You are essentially demanding that you receive something on par with Lustrate, Galvanize, and Crit on a class that can already give massive burst healing. You are doing the exact same thing that every WHM has done since the nerf to Holy and the elongation (but same output) of Medica II. You see that you have different tools now and you're demanding that SCH either receive the same nerfs OR you get a buff that will make SCH less viable.

Stop the pretending. Call it what it is. You want SCH to pay for some perceived transgressions either in PVP and/or PVE, and I'm frankly tired of WHMs pulling the same crap that you see time and time again in every single game that has PVP. You can't do what someone else can do so either they have to change (the more likely scenario as we're now seeing with nerfs incoming to the arcanist family) or you have to change (and receive buffs then requiring SCH to receive buffs so on and so on).

And this is, frankly, why I don't play PVP...because gamers seem to have adopted the saying of, "If you can't beat 'em, complain until they get nerfed. Then you can beat 'em."

whm needs 3sec reflect.

Looks like a Sch here is afraid of his class getting nerfed.

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Originally Posted by cainejw

You are doing the exact same thing that every WHM has done since the nerf to Holy and the elongation (but same output) of Medica II.

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That's a pretty big brush you're tarring us with!

People seem to forget SCH have no CC. A good WHM vs a good SCH, i'd it would entirely boil down to the DPS in a team.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

People seem to forget SCH have no CC. A good WHM vs a good SCH, i'd it would entirely boil down to the DPS in a team.

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Idk, that heal debuff is brutal...

I do find things a joke after I sleep Eos, however. lol (dumb schs not paying attention to their minions ;D)

i didnt liked pvp, its the one thing im not doing anymore