True Support Class even possible...

given the size of groups being so small is a true support class even possible int his game. I really dislike the size of groups, they tried to force a ff mechanic that imo didn't work. Yes we get it the groups were primarily a size of 4 in many of the ff games, but that just made things so much more cramped. Not to mention dd have a harder time getting groups if they had 3 dd per 1 tank and 1 healer groups would go quicker.

Back to my point, given the size of groups is there really any place for a support type class? I for one love support classes, and healing classes. I would pick up a support in a heart beat. I dont know i just wish they had larger groups and in doing so this would allow for more flexibility within character types.

aeno

1 Tank, 1 healer, 1 DPS, 1 support.

see no issue here.

I dont know about pure support. More support than bards are, sure. If you consider how many timed boss fights there are in the 4 man dungeons, such as demon wall and the last AK boss, you just need to make sure that a group with 1+ support class can clear those reasonably, even if its just cutting it really close. So as long as you balance the encounters and the dps for support classes well enough that 4 man content is doable with them, they could be a big help for 8 man content.

it really depends on the type of support. if you take a support like the captain in LOTRO for example, it might work. massive buffs to healing for the healer, buffs to dps for the dps, off-tanking if need to and on top of that debuffs on the enemy? yes please. absolutely.
I loved constantly having to make sure all my buffs and debuffs were up. give me!

Support is a role, not a class, and it is filled by a different variety of CC, Buffs, Heals, Debuffs, and inherent benefits of a class, (range, HP, Speed, etc)
When someone says a person is support, it just implies they can "support" the party. in reality all classes have support elements and may even be called on due to this. support classes in other MMO's are often bundled into a healer as support is situational. Bard is a good example of a Support DPS, they have a versatile move set and an LB that can save the party. you could say they are a DPS class that often fills a support role in situations requiring it.we have a good setup right now.

In it's state now, I don't think that bards can be considered support class. But I do suspect, that when the release a true support class (probably in the next major expansion) that the role of bard might change. Of course, archer will have a more dps orientated class like ranger. (Actually, would it not be cool that musketeer and archer both end up Ranger as a job option - so you pretty much keep your class skills - but gain 5 Ranger skills)

However, I do think that how support (since they will still bring their own DPS to the table) functions is that their skills buff the rest of the 3 members to make up for the difference in DPS.

Say for example, a support class deals 80% the damage of a true dps class. between, the tank, the healer and the DPS. A support class would be required to add another 20% DPS. Of course, the overall capabilities of a party is not restricted to damage dealing, as such, a support class could also buff the party in other ways.

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Originally Posted by Imagene

In it's state now, I don't think that bards can be considered support class.

Say for example, a support class deals 80% the damage of a true dps class. between, the tank, the healer and the DPS. A support class would be required to add another 20% DPS. Of course, the overall capabilities of a party is not restricted to damage dealing, as such, a support class could also buff the party in other ways.

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That is what bards do now . . . how are they not support?

Yoshi mentioned a 'hybrid' role in the most recent live letter (I believe is where it was), so something similar could be incoming. Though what exactly will be a hybrid of is up for debate.

But he wanted two of each role in a full party: 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 dps, 2 hybrid.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

That is what bards do now . . . how are they not support?

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They're DPS with raid cooldowns. Very much akin to an enhancement shaman in WoW. And that's not a bad thing.

@OP: "Support" doesn't work in trinity-based MMOs.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrAM

Yoshi mentioned a 'hybrid' role in the most recent live letter (I believe is where it was), so something similar could be incoming. Though what exactly will be a hybrid of is up for debate.

But he wanted two of each role in a full party: 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 dps, 2 hybrid.

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I'm still hoping that was along the lines of "warrior players didn't research enough" rather than a legitimate peek at what's to come.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrAM

Yoshi mentioned a 'hybrid' role in the most recent live letter (I believe is where it was), so something similar could be incoming. Though what exactly will be a hybrid of is up for debate.

But he wanted two of each role in a full party: 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 dps, 2 hybrid.

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To elaborate for those that didn't hear about it, he mentioned it in the context of hybridizing class roles. So the "Hybrid" would hybridize Tank/Healer (pllllllzzzzzzz), Tank/DPS, or Healer/DPS. (e.g. not based on classes, like a WAR/PLD hybrid, or BRD/BLM, etc.) Or so one would assume.

I think I worded that confusingly. He said it like there were new classes that were going to hybridize Tank/Healer/DPS, not an opportunity to hybridize current classes.

Depend on how much support the support class can bring.

Personally I think 4 party content would need to be retweaked for 5 party content.

WoW tried a 'support' class with the release-day Paladin and Shaman. That setup was inevitably burned to the ground by the church of the Holy Trinity within a year or two.

However, I'm not a stuck-up zealot when it comes down to what others would consider sacriligious to raid-class MMO gameplay (totally disregarding the pretender freemiums), but NOBODY has ever done a support class that can hold its own against the big three. Buffs are all too often mediocre if not downright pittances. Bosses are generally outright immune to control abilities. Nobody has really gotten a 'support' role right where the DPS IS the support role. They make things die faster, resulting in shorter dungeon turnarounds, less damage done to the tank, and less pressure on the healers.

So unless a 'support' class can be a force multiplier, even on boss fights, then the idea is just another stillbirthed brick expanding the foundation of the Holy Trinity.

The current class system is engineered on this foundation. You have two tank jobs, two healer jobs, five DPS, and the bard who is the closest thing to a support class that the game can allow while calling it a 'dps' class.

Do you think people, unless forced by game design (and I wouldn't put past Yoshi to all but schedule our play time for us), would willingly 'take more time' to do dungeon runs to carry a support class through? The bard gets away with it by at least being a reasonably mobile damage dealer in this increasingly boring game of red shapes.

FFXI had BRD and COR...it's not like they'd have to look far for inspiration....

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Originally Posted by Iecerint

FFXI had BRD and COR...it's not like they'd have to look far for inspiration....

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No, they'd just have to look for a reason to give for anyone to care. And we already have BRDs, and we have plenty of DPS's already sitting around getting Pizza delivered before the dungeon finder pops.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

That is what bards do now . . . how are they not support?

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The bard is a hybrid class not a true support class. Some examples of true support classes from others games are a Bard from Rift Online, Minstrel / Bard / Skald from Dark Age of Camelot, Captain from Lotro.

Also with the subject of the OP, I don't think its possible for a true support type class in this game with the basic group build being 4 people and with the current content built towards 1 tank, 1 healer, two dps. If we see more support type abilities in the future, it will be like the bard. A dps class with some minor raid type short duration buffs.

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Originally Posted by Zourin

No, they'd just have to look for a reason to give for anyone to care. And we already have BRDs, and we have plenty of DPS's already sitting around getting Pizza delivered before the dungeon finder pops.

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BRDs in FFXI were complete support, not sure if you played it any. Rarely, would you see a BRD in FFXI attack anything with a weapon they usually just sung songs an entire fight.

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Originally Posted by Zourin

NOBODY has ever done a support class that can hold its own against the big three.

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Again, I guess you never played FFXI, if you did you where terribly sheltered. Having a BRD in your group usually meant burning through things a lot faster than without. Can't tell you how many times people wouldn't do things in FFXI without having a BRD in the party with them.

Having a BRD in the group made things easy mode a lot of the time.

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Originally Posted by Inflorescence

To elaborate for those that didn't hear about it, he mentioned it in the context of hybridizing class roles. So the "Hybrid" would hybridize Tank/Healer (pllllllzzzzzzz), Tank/DPS, or Healer/DPS. (e.g. not based on classes, like a WAR/PLD hybrid, or BRD/BLM, etc.) Or so one would assume.

I think I worded that confusingly. He said it like there were new classes that were going to hybridize Tank/Healer/DPS, not an opportunity to hybridize current classes.

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PLDs in the traditional sense is a Hybrid, like how they were back in 1.0. But Yoshi changed that come ARR they can't heal hardly at all like they used to, holy succor was an amazing ability.

BRD in ARR is a bad example of a support role in a party. Hardly am I ever asked to sing songs in a fight unless the healer burns through their MP pool spamming heals. BRDs were better as a support role back in 1.0 when they could run around and put songs on everyone and then go back to DDing.

None of this you sing while you fight and your damage is reduced by 20% while your singing.

I'm not a Barbarian singing to Tempus while fighting. I sing to inspire people to perform better which is how songs should work in the game, like how they were in 1.0. (I understand the concept of reducing your damage while singing as you can't focus 100% to do damage because of singing. I just think the mechanic is silly =) I preferred the previous system they had in place.)

I enjoy ARR but there were somethings I liked about 1.0 that I wish they had kept.

Obviously some of you didn't play LotrO. They had 3 support classes (Captain, Burgler, Loremaster) BUT their group seize was 6!

What happened to them you may ask?!? Community...

Some playing Loremaster thought its been a mage-style class, they couldn't have been more wrong on that. They thought the burgler was a dps class, ... :cool:
Over time Turbine changed the system. Supporters got more and more dps and de-/ buffs got less complex. Even CC got more and more unnessesary.

Everquest had some pretty sweet support roles. I remember you couldn't have a group without an enchanter for haste and slow. Really interesting and fun dynamic no doubt.

Rift had a support class when i played it, Archon I think it was? It was mandatory in every raid comp. Then they tried to force support on the 5 man group composition and in the end everyone queued support and then swapped into their dps class right away and violently chastised for trying to actually support.

Support classes are, as already said, force multipliers. WoW completely ruined the idea of the support class by giving support essentially no tools or abilities to actually make the raid function better. Support has a place in 'Holy Trinity' MMOs, but it has absolutely no place in group sizes less than 5 (6 is ideal imho - 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps, 1 support). Otherwise the support aspect cannot compete with direct damage when there are no group members to support, forcing most groups to discard support classes in favor of additional raw dps.

In a full party? Maybe... 2 tank, 2 heals, 3 dps, 1 hybrid-support. It just ends up like Bard at that point though... a crappy dps with a few songs. If archer ever gets a true dps job, I feel like bard will become largely obsolete. Unless your healers need mana song or you are stacked with casters groups would probably prefer pure dps over bards current form.

Support classes have a place in MMOs and can be an exciting and engaging role to play for many people. However, in WoW and its clones (including FFXIV) I don't think we'll ever see any true support. Just raw dps and subpar dps with some group-wide supporty abilities.

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Originally Posted by Zourin

WoW tried a 'support' class with the release-day Paladin and Shaman. That setup was inevitably burned to the ground by the church of the Holy Trinity within a year or two.

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A large part of that came from the people who were pissed off for being sold a master of the elements (shaman) or a light-touched knight with holy powers (paladins) only to find they were buffbots or gimped healers with little other use in endgame. Even in burning crusade the devs were hesistant to buff either and instead fell back on clutch buffs to try to justify those classes' raid spots (which pretty much blew up in their faces when non-healing specs for both were sat in favor of bringing a real DPS in that spot).

You effectively had two very popular classes that contained a large portion of pissed off people who felt bait and switched.

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However, I'm not a stuck-up zealot when it comes down to what others would consider sacriligious to raid-class MMO gameplay (totally disregarding the pretender freemiums), but NOBODY has ever done a support class that can hold its own against the big three. Buffs are all too often mediocre if not downright pittances.

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It's hit both extremes. Your support was either mediocre and better replaced by a DPS, or so powerful it was outright required for everything in the game because the encounters were balanced around the presence of said support. When developers took aspects of support and blended them into the trinity, it was a breath of fresh air (because it increased diversity and flavor in tank, heals and DPS) while also dealing with the problem of making support aspects fit into the game without borking party dynamics and overall balance. There's a reason I was happy to see design in the last couple of years phase "support" out of the picture in favor of baking aspects of support on the holy trinity. It is much more solid design and gives the involved classes a little more flavor.

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Originally Posted by Iecerint

FFXI had BRD and COR...it's not like they'd have to look far for inspiration....

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One was mandatory but no one liked to play it, the other was relegated to cure-botting with token gunshots via Light Shot because SE was boneheaded enough to make COR ammo difficult and very expensive to obtain. That's not what I would call a winning formula.

Well.. no one is requesting songs from BRDs because you're the one in charge. If you have BLM/SMN in the party and you're not keeping up Requiem for them you're doing it wrong. The only song that is rarely used is Paeon and only because we're not allowed to see our party's TP bars. I'm always singing when it's necessary on BRD removing the buff whenever a DPS check phase is coming up for obvious reasons.

bard is hardly support in ffxiv ,a song that boost magic dmg (if u have a caster) or a regen mp song ....are nice to have dont get me wrong but thats it...

is monk support because stun has mantra?

or drg stun , piercing debuff, slow ?

is smn support because can rez in combat ,eye for eye , virus , debuffs (heavy , disease....)

is warrior support because stun, -10% dmg received debuff?

There is a huge difference between what a bard can do and other classes can do. The closest thing is the piercing and slashing resist down because they work for more than one job, but neither of those can hold a candle to ballad or requiem --both of these are disgustingly strong. Paeon is [largely] useless, but in one or two spots it can make an entire strategy go more smoothly.

Notice most of the things you bring up debuff the mob, not empower the party. Empowering the party is what support does.

Support vs. Enfeeble, not that we have an enfeebling job because everyone has a little bit of that pie.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

One was mandatory but no one liked to play it, the other was relegated to cure-botting with token gunshots via Light Shot because SE was boneheaded enough to make COR ammo difficult and very expensive to obtain. That's not what I would call a winning formula.

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Not to throw a hissy fit, but I played bard for years in XI, absolutely loved playing it. So much fun, so many smiling faces. I'll admit I was probably a weird one tho.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

There is a huge difference between what a bard can do and other classes can do. The closest thing is the piercing and slashing resist down because they work for more than one job, but neither of those can hold a candle to ballad or requiem --both of these are disgustingly strong. Paeon is [largely] useless, but in one or two spots it can make an entire strategy go more smoothly.

Notice most of the things you bring up debuff the mob, not empower the party. Empowering the party is what support does.

Support vs. Enfeeble, not that we have an enfeebling job because everyone has a little bit of that pie.

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requiem is a pbaoe debuff and is strong because BLM and SMN are strong DPS and partys are usually

1-2 tank (90% of content is 2 tank)
1-2 heal (u can do some bosses with 1 healer if no1 does mistakes)
4-5 dps (usually 2-3 casters 1 brd 1 melee)

if partys were 1-2 drg 1-2 brd 1 caster :rolleyes:

brd worked on FFXI because u could stack melees on 1 party with a brd, in FFXIV u cant do that

Why are ppl referring to XI's bard? Their early purpose in XI was more meaningful and helpful, yet the community exposed and abused its flaws, thus destroying the job. (They put up buffs and drop/rotate alliance pts, then sit outside pts as you were replaced by more DPS and cant do a damn thing for the PT or to the enemy.)

Every job in this game gives minor support to its party or at least another job in the party. At this time a true support role isn't needed at all unless they change the fight and battle mechanics specifically to add it in.

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Originally Posted by Noata

Support is a role, not a class. . .

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I'm pretty sure the OP means a class with a majority of its skills and play style geared towards buffing the party / themselves Mr. smart guy.

I think its possible and it would be pretty interesting to see a class that focused more on enhancing a groups overall output of heals dps defense etc.

RDM in FFXI was also a solid support class.

Refresh, Haste, Refresh, Bio, Refresh, Slow, Refresh, Paralyze, Refresh, Blind, Refresh, Dia, Refresh, Poison, Refresh, Gravity, Refresh, Regen, Refresh, Bind, Refresh, Stoneskin, Refresh, Phalanx, Refresh, Protect, Refresh, Convert, etc, etc... Never a dull moment for RDMs.