Paladin vs Warrior Cross Class abilities.

So I have been playing Warrior after 2.1 and I really like the changes, even though I miss Inner beasts super healing. The more and more I play warrior, I realize his cross class abilities are way better than Paladins.

Over all the Classes/jobs now seem similar, but every time I am on warrior I am actually using most if not all my cross class abilities. I have Flash, Provoke, Convalescence and Awareness just from Gladiator and Second wind or feather-foot from pugilist, sometimes Internal release.

What gets me is when I play my paladin. I have blood bath which I always use. and Foresight, then there is fracture, and mercy stroke, I don't ever use skullbash which is a weird cross class to have seems somewhat useless.

I dont really use Raise since I can't cast it in combat. My cure is for under 300 when i have over 6500 HP and that seems useless too not to mention I get interrupted half the time and when I don't the auto attack hits me for over 400. Protect is always better when a WHM uses it, and if no WHM has it then its on par with a SCH which you will always have one in the group. And stoneskin is even better when a WHM uses it if not same with a SCH.

So what I have noticed from this is the majority of Paladins cross class abilities are for solo/duo play when you lack a healer. You can mercy stroke to heal on weak mobs, cast cure on yourself or friend, raise your friend after combat, and buff your self and them.

Warrior on the other hand gets the bread and butter of Gladiator, Provoke, Flash and 2 tanking buffs, Sure they get savage blade (which i also think is useless) but then you have the PUG abilities which also give some tanking bonuses.

Seems to me like the cross class abilities for warrior help a lot more for endgame/bosses than paladins. Hell even for speed runs, not enough TP spam flash, run out of MP spam Overpower.

This is not counting any buffs war got from 2.1 and this thread is not about that, i honestly think there needs to be a balance of cross class abilities.

Maybe take away skull bash and give paladins Over power or berserk.

You can easily tell of the dis balance in abilities since all of the marauder cross class abilities are from lvls 2-8 with the exception of Mercy stroke which is 26. While Gladiator abilities range from 4,8,10,22,34. And I know higher level abilities don't mean they are better but as a rule of thumb that is generally true.

Well that's the issues, I see and although I'm not sure what the fix could be I have some suggestions.

Remove Savage Blade and Skull Bash from cross class abilities for Tanks. They are useless. No one would ever use one when they have access to the other. Give warriors Fight or Flight and paladins Berserk (both attack up abilities)

Fracture seems out of place on PLD and since Warrior gets Paladins AOE hate generator I believe it's only right for PLD to get Overpower. Mercy Stroke is nice but completely useless near end game. Paladin deals negligable damage plues the 20% less damage from shield oath, chances are you will never land a killing blow and its just an extra off GCD attack. I think Thrill of battle will be good on Paladin.

Now as far as Paladins CNJ cross class abilities. I think either PLD needs a trait where his own heals are stronger or should have access to higher Cure spells. As is no PLD armor gives MND as a modifier, and Determination only affects the low end of the healing spectrum not the high end. In a game where most attacks hit for 500+ i think 250 cures are useless. as well as buffs that you don't need or spells you cant use (raise)

These might seem like a huge buff but remember PLD has low healing modifiers. PLD should get Cure II also. As it is warrior has access to 5 cross class abilities from PUG and GLD while PLD get 4 from CNJ (3 which you might never use) and 5 from MRD(1 which you will never use)

I think these changes will actually allow customization for Paladin and warrior.

Right now all Paladins have Stoneskin, Foresight, Blood Bath, Cure and Mercystroke or fracture.

I haven't messed with any of the numbers, but this is just a suggestion. But i really do see a huge imbalance in the cross class abilities.

Thoughts, suggestions, questions concerns?

Our cross class sucks because our actual skills are pretty awesome. I would love better cross class but it'd just unbalance everything again.

I personally wouldn't use Awareness. Unless they fixed it, it prevents ALL crits, including heals. You want those yummy Scholar Crits.

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Originally Posted by ispano

I personally wouldn't use Awareness. Unless they fixed it, it prevents ALL crits, including heals. You want those yummy Scholar Crits.

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This has been fixed in 2.1 :)

Yeah the more I play both tanks i realize Gladiator is so strong. Just look at warrior and marauder, alone marauder is meh, but the warrior job adds so much. On Gladiator its amazing on its own. Paladin adds some but not to the awesomeness of the warrior job. I agree Gladiators kit is way overpowered hence why our cross abilities lack luster, but now that Warrior is on par. Then i think our cross class abilities should also be on par.

my counter to this is War has good CC skills that it uses, because it couldn't support itself in raid content without those skills.

Paladin should have/use
Foresight (mitigation on it sucks but it's something)
Bloodbath (self healing sucks but it's something)
Stoneskin (10% HP over-heal... great skill to be using when off-tanking)
Cure (again a nice off-tank skill)
Fracture (it's a high-damage skill when you account for DoT ticks for net dmg per GCD)

Raise / Protect can always be swapped in out of combat if you need them for some reason

Warrior:
You need provoke or you can't regularly, reliably hate swap
You need flash, or you can't get hate on enemies behind you
Convalescense / Mantra ... increased healing is kinda self explanatory
Featherfoot, take less damage

IR- maybe some extra damage
Second wind-pitiful heal

I'm hoping any further development into the Paladin involves its WHM/CNJ side. Riot Blade being useless leaves SO MUCH gameplay on the table for the developers. I'm sure they're scared that Paladin will be an overall better choice than a healer (because it would kinda be a jack of all trades) but yes, some more CNH/WHM skills and some MP ebb and flow would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by Teleniel

my counter to this is War has good CC skills that it uses, because it couldn't support itself in raid content without those skills.

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I think this used to be the case but after 2.1 it isnt really. War can have as much DMg reduction as PLD alone, not counting CC skills. I just think some skills should be CC. For example the useless hate generating abilties which will work to help a monk get hate off a healer, will be useless on a tank when they have something exactly the same. I think these can be changed. They were made as general cross class abilities for most/all and yet useless on tanks. I'm speaking of skull sunder and savage blade.

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Originally Posted by Jubez187

I'm hoping any further development into the Paladin involves its WHM/CNJ side. Riot Blade being useless leaves SO MUCH gameplay on the table for the developers. I'm sure they're scared that Paladin will be an overall better choice than a healer (because it would kinda be a jack of all trades) but yes, some more CNH/WHM skills and some MP ebb and flow would be awesome.

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I agree with this too. as much as i spam fast blade riot blade flash, thats the only reason to do it. Riot blade seems useless outside of flash spam scenarios.

ummmm, i dont know about u guys. but paladins are still solid even after the warrior buff. warriors are on about on par now. no imbalance here. every class has useless cross class skills.

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Originally Posted by Axidrain

ummmm, i dont know about u guys. but paladins are still solid even after the warrior buff. warriors are on about on par now. no imbalance here. every class has useless cross class skills.

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I agree but i'm not just looking to "buff " paladin. I would like for both tanks to not have access to each others combo enmity ability which is useless, and for at least paladin to get something worthwhile from CNJ.

If you don't use Stoneskin on yourself you're wasting an awesome ability.

1 cast is worth 650HP for me. Cast this prior to Mountain buster or during Cad's tail swipe and you're mitigating a lot of the damage!

On T2 if I'm waiting for stacks to go I'll be casting this on myself and the other tank.

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Originally Posted by Zedine

I said Stoneskin is the only usefull CNJ ability.

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Sorry I was just looking at the previous post where you said "Something useful from CNJ"

I said Stoneskin is the only usefull CNJ ability.

Warriors are still heal sponges.

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Originally Posted by Davionx

Warriors are still heal sponges.

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Not as much as they used to. They have a lot of damage mitigation now.

I wish they'd let us have Esuna. Quick casting, removes one debuff. Wouldn't break the game, or ruin things for the healers. It's just allow the Paladin to be a bit more self-reliant while the healer can either get him healed in half the time(assuming something like Bad Breath), or help out other allies faster.

Additional Bonus: Scholars wouldn't have to wait until L40 to get a basic healing skill.

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Originally Posted by Zedine

I agree but i'm not just looking to "buff " paladin. I would like for both tanks to not have access to each others combo enmity ability which is useless, and for at least paladin to get something worthwhile from CNJ.

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Stoneskin is awesome. Don't know what your saying.