does SMN really out dps MNK/DRG?

can't be true right?

It can and is (usually)

im not even gonna complain, they got far worse problems to iron out in this game, but i hope they can buff MNK aoe a tiny bit. No raptor form AOE move is kinda painful, and AOTD 50 potency is a joke lol

lol no way on earth, ever, at all, i get beat by any summoner i have ever met in game (and i met full i90) at all, for any reason, whatsoever

I think people over estimate smn dps. I do think they can hang with the best and have great utility, BUT they are not the end all be all.

Yoshi P said SMN top deeps.

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

lol no way on earth, ever, at all, i get beat by any summoner i have ever met in game (and i met full i90) at all, for any reason, whatsoever

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Same. Same goes for MNK, esp since 2.1

i have both,smn and mnk...and i dont think that smn is better than monk,maybe (and i say maybe) doing some maths can be quiet near but smn has about 6\7 skills to manage more than monk,this make it very very dependant on player skills,and more skills number more time u loose to check theme all when u can cast or not cast,ur mana,ur charges and aether recast time left,have to drag and drop out ground aoe ,all of this makes a summoner loose much time in "thinking" ,yeah i know are just half seconds,but image that maybe in pharos at first boss,when u have to avoid aoe for more than 3\4 seconds often you have to recast all dots loosing time because no dmg for about 9 seconds,avoid aoe means loose another 3 sec and recast
this is pretty the same of blm i think but manage 6 skills isnt the same of managing 17 i think
my monk is quiet low level,im still on titan for relic,but i found it very very easier to play,expecially watching at titan i can avoid quiet easier plumes and dont stop to dps,only in X bombs for example,i think there are much difficult boss for melee class aswell,but really my monk with GC weapon,darklite armor but low level jewellery,watching parser do pretty the same dmg as my summoner with r+1 and half myth gear
of course smn in the best in 2->4 groups of mob cos of bane and SF,for example coil t1 caduceus is very usefull have a summoner for dotting both copies

im now trying to change playstile after "nerf" of smn and im finding titan egi very usefull on certain boss with 1 big add who likes ur healer hehe,swiftcast its awsome for that purposes,but u loose it for a ress u can need later in fight

anyway for who is asking,calculation with parser i did,are before 2.1 , now parses didnt work need some update i think

In equal gear and skill a SMN will slightly out DPS anything

Unfortunately both of those scenarios are hard to achieve. Just look at the SMNs who think thunder wasn't a loss.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

In equal gear and skill a SMN will slightly out DPS anything

Unfortunately both of those scenarios are hard to achieve. Just look at the SMNs who think thunder wasn't a loss.

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thunder IS a BIG loss for arcanist,but im trying to adapt and use sometime blizzard2 on some situations,really its just testing but its fun use it lol
smn is just much more difficult to play of any other class,but i really dont think is better than monk,in 8 party with a mnk geared of my fc he was around 225 dps by parser,casting everything on a boss i was near 180 + 40\50 of the pet
i feel i outdmg mnk only when dont have to avoid aoes,then its a fucking mess LOOOL
i know parser cant be used to precision maths on smn but really,for example in ak in 3mob groups,i reached 308 dps without pet :D :D hehehehe

What I want to know is what the highest SMN parses are on T2 ADS using the enrage strat. That is basically a pure burn with no mechanics.

Then you can adjust by adding an assumption for Shadowflare and go from there.

Edit: The problem is that the best SMNs are in good groups that won't wait for the enrage strat, hehe.

Adorable DRG thinking they are the bestest so cute :D Look it is situational, huge groups BLM hellza rocks, 3-4 mobs My SMN melts all the faces! Sorry DRG :( it's true, I get the spear being an attempt to match our secsi Horn and all but SMN owns that world. Single mob MNK and DRG are pretty good either in group of mobs or single. Boss fights are situational as well depends on the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Nofacekiller

can't be true right?

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I know everyone enjoys a good d*ck measuring contest between classes, but there's not really any point until SE makes a raid encounter full of target dummies. /rant

To answer your question, it depends on how you look at it. MNK are higher single target DPS by a fair margin, but a good SMN gains a lot of ground on any fight with multiple-targets (Turn 1/4/5 and X-Primals). All things being equal, I think it's pretty close at end-game without limit breaks.

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Originally Posted by Aphrini

Adorable DRG thinking they are the bestest so cute :D Look it is situational, huge groups BLM hellza rocks, 3-4 mobs My SMN melts all the faces! Sorry DRG :( it's true, I get the spear being an attempt to match our secsi Horn and all but SMN owns that world. Single mob MNK and DRG are pretty good either in group of mobs or single. Boss fights are situational as well depends on the mechanics.

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Actually, I can melt groups of mobs pretty darn well without having the ramp up of a SMN. DRG AoE is pretty strong (so long as we have invigorate). SMN may have an upper hand on boss fights over a DRG or MNK but I doubt the difference is glaring. Enrage ADS might be a good tester but again...without parsers 100% calculating DoTs correctly we wouldn't know for sure (pending everyone with "equal" gear).

The DoTs are calculated mostly well enough for most classes. The only exception seems to be Contagion, Shadow Flare and Flaming Arrow. SF and FA are easy to account for manually. Contagion is marginally more complex but a detailed parse can be adjusted manually to account for that.

never seen an actual SMN do this "top" dps people talk about.

i correct my statement from earlier. SMN beats me in T4 by like 10 dps. /golfclap

Good for you, summoners.

T4 should have a vaguely balanced skew -- SMNs gain DPS during p2/5/6 cleaves, but DRGs gain DPS during p1 and p4 AOE sequences.

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

i correct my statement from earlier. SMN beats me in T4 by like 10 dps. /golfclap

Good for you, summoners.

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You know, I think you may need an astral hug, would you like an astral hug maybe? :) You know you are always welcome to test your theory in the PVP ring I am sure many a SMN would love to show you just how much we suck face to face :)

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Originally Posted by Squa

never seen an actual SMN do this "top" dps people talk about.

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Most of the best players don't do anything outside of their static or FC.

I don't know the specifics of maximizing SMN dps, but the guy from my static is a beast.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/1728587/

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Originally Posted by Mitski

Most of the best players don't do anything outside of their static or FC.

I don't know the specifics of maximizing SMN dps, but the guy from my static is a beast.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/1728587/

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Is he wearing myth pants and belt because of no luck with drops?

My dots consistently do over 20% more damage than what they parse for. Parsers are only able to tracks when and what dots are up (except for shadowflare), but are unable to track the damage they do. A SMN in ilvl 60 gear will show the same damage from dots as one in ilvl 90. Parsers are also incapable of knowing when dots crit, which is substantial.

If you think you got a SMN beat just because your parser said so, think again. Geared SMN do quite a bit more than what is shown.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

A SMN in ilvl 60 gear will show the same damage from dots as one in ilvl 90. Parsers are also incapable of knowing when dots crit, which is substantial.

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Ah, no.

That's not quite how it works.

Couple pages here to answer the "Why did melee get buffed?" question going around. If Smn continues to be top dps I expect to see another big buff for drgs and a smaller one for Mnk.

If bard had to much utility for their dps then Smn certainly does.

From what I've been able to gather, the parsers sample your reliable damage (Ruin, etc.) to determine what it can expect from a specific potency amount. Then it translates that to DoT potency, and applies it on a per second (or portion of a second) basis, throughout the course of the DoT duration, until it is refreshed/over-written or the mob dies.

It is true that it does not factor in crit damage, but someone in i60 vs someone in i90 will get significantly more DoT damage 'credit' on the merit of the other abilities that the parser is sampling, doing more damage.

And of course there are certain abilities that parsers do not track at all.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Ah, no.

That's not quite how it works.

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From the guy who writes FFXIV-APP:

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I take your level * X and get some damage base from that.

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That was a week or two ago though and I know he made a different formula that tries to guess your damage based on ruin damage, but when I tested it I got even worse numbers so I don't know if it got any better since. I did my testing by simply writing down the damage the game displayed and comparing it to the damage the parser displayed, and the numbers were a consistent 20% difference. Crits were never shown either.

I think us weak SMN should just stfu and be told by our stick swinging overlords how life is as they are obviously our superiors

*edit missed a word ^^v

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Originally Posted by Aphrini

I think us weak SMN should just stfu and be told by our stick swinging overlords how life as they are obviously our superiors

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Quote for future use when people ask why melee get buffed.

Nothing can do better than SMNS or monks. Yet to see any drag doin 380 dps on dummy without any food or buff.

Or just doin 330 dps + all alone on Caduceus without lb.

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Originally Posted by Georgevonfranken

Is he wearing myth pants and belt because of no luck with drops?

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We've never seen the pants drop, so I'm not sure what he considers best in slot. Like I said, all I know is he does a lot of damage. We run MNK/BRD/BLM/SMN... if you believe what you read on the forums 3/4 of those classes were nerfed into oblivion this patch, but we pushed Twintania to phase 3 before the 4th conflag this week.

If a great SMN can out-do a great MNK then I'm all for it, because as of 2.1 I'm destroying faces and I'd love to have someone at/above my dps right alongside me.

Parsers don't take into account Bane for AOE as well as SF. As well, on those AOE sequences there are only 5 targets, so the SMN is only missing 1 with his Bane.

Basically, nobody even knows how much AOE DPS SMN REALLY does due to Bane/SF not being taken into account.

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Originally Posted by IAmPotent

Parsers don't take into account Bane for AOE as well as SF. As well, on those AOE sequences there are only 5 targets, so the SMN is only missing 1 with his Bane.

Basically, nobody even knows how much AOE DPS SMN REALLY does due to Bane/SF not being taken into account.

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Or DoT crits, or Contagion I believe.

idk... evidence is pretty conclusive. When a tank dies, i get smacked first. That's some pretty. basic. evidence.

Still, lmao at the SMN who think they do more DPS. They don't really, and I don't know why they got nerfed.

BUT, for the record, the helm/robe for SMN is pretty badass. No arguments from me

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

idk... evidence is pretty conclusive. When a tank dies, i get smacked first. That's some pretty. basic. evidence.

Still, lmao at the SMN who think they do more DPS. They don't really, and I don't know why they got nerfed.

BUT, for the record, the helm/robe for SMN is pretty badass. No arguments from me

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Nearly 1/4 of the SMN's DPS isn't counting towards his aggro, even if he doesn't use Quelling Strikes, which you don't have access to. Aggro is only somewhat reliable as a measure of relative DPS.

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

Or just doin 330 dps + all alone on Caduceus without lb.

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I parsed 310 on Cad this week if that helps. Rotation was slightly sloppy too. Did 320 on ADS with the silly enrage strat.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Nearly 1/4 of the SMN's DPS isn't counting towards his aggro, even if he doesn't use Quelling Strikes, which you don't have access to. Aggro is only somewhat reliable as a measure of relative DPS.

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Yeah i drop my aggro too. fair point about 1/4 of SMN dps not generating aggro to the character.

The only real way to determine how much a DoT is doing is via much parsing of SMN dots, with a mob that has a set (and known) amount of HP. Then you could apply your dot, figure out how much time it took to take down a certain amount of HP, then the HP/time would be your Dots DPS. Do that many times to create a control sample, and you can pretty well assume thats your dot damage in an instance. you could even figure the average tick strength too. I'm pretty sure parsers can pick up how many times a dot ticks for damage. basically it's still possible to determine a SMN DPS pretty accurately. On another note, I'm sure bosses don't have higher resists to physical or magical attacks, as I don't see any difference from WP/AK all the way through turn 4/5 with my attacks.


So, its a P.I.T.A. but you can do it. If you really want to. OR, you can just do DPS and as long as boss dies, you can presume your DPS was competent. (or you can just thank your DRG, if you wanan be really honest :P)

Ah, I did forget about Elusive Jump. . .

So much dick measuring and hostility for no reason. Lets just say there's a reason monks got buffed and why we lost thunder. MMOs are always going to have a FOTM class that is strongest in a situation and top guilds will build groups around them to beat bosses faster/easier. Just enjoy the game, and the people you play with.

I cant say much about 2.1, but in 2.0 my Relic+1 SMN friend and Relic+1 MNk friend could down demon wall by the 2nd repel. (I nearly shat myself when I 1st saw this.)
Out of them, the SMN almost always had more threat, despite sharing some of it with their pet.

So I can't say for sure, but SMN was no joke in dmg back then, but I can't imagine it being too far off from MNK atm.