BLM Mana tick, Solution and New Rotation

I figured this needs it own thread to keep all information in one place. I will list the problems then the solutions I'm using atm to remedy it.

Problems:

1- Mana Ticks have been changed. Now, using Thunder I/II or Swiftcast Thunder III will only give you one mana tick before you start your Fire rotation.

2- Having SCH in the group will increase your piety and break your rotation unless you have 251 piety. To clarify, I don't have 251 piety, now from full mana fire rotation leaves me at 20 mana only and unable to cast Bliz III to switch back and have to use convert or Transpose. You may not have this problem and it is different from race to race but it is happening so please don't dismiss yet.

Current Solution:

Keep in mind this is my own solution and I will update it as other players offer a better one.

Mana ticks now require new rotation. I found two of them working up to 99%-100% of the time.

Rotation 1: Bliz III > Thunder 3 (hard cast) > Fire III > Fire I until low mana > repeat. 99% of the time full mana before fire rotation.

Rotation 2: Bliz III > Thunder II/I > Scathe > Fire III > Fire I until low mana > repeat. 100% full mana before fire rotation.

Rotation 3: Same as old rotation, you just have to wait a second or two more or less to get a second tick.

If you are asking why Bliz III first, it is because you want Thunder III/II & Scathe to cost 0 mana and Fire III to only cost 133 initially.

Now for the 20 mana problem at the end of fire rotation when you have SCH in group it may no longer be an option not to have 251 piety counting SCH 8 points increase. I have not tried anything to fix this yet because it is not constant and I might be doing something wrong to cause this.

I will update this post as players provide better solutions and we test more.

All I know is mana regen is screwed. I can understand changing double dipping, but they rocked the foundation of our class... We are having to try and throw fill in places to make up for it. All in all this results in a pretty big loss.

I don't think it's a better solution than these, but when you make the transition from AF to UI, watch your MP bar until the first tick happens. As soon as that happens, cast Scathe and then spam Fire III to your hearts content. I usually get the tick just after Fire III starts casting, which is as close as I can get right now without timing down to split seconds, in which case I wouldn't need Scathe.

Just got done with coil and there is defiantly something going on with the ticks and rotations. I think we do need a new rotation and I think we gotta get the math nuts in on this.

First of all, if you go to 20mp left you made a mistake. The cycle is not "cast stupidly fire1 until you can" is to cast fire1 until you can afford B3 and Thunder (1 2 or 3, the one you use). If you get a buff to pie you could cast one more fire1 that will screw your rotation. Don't cast it

personally i prefear the cycle with T3. Many fight require me to move and delay my cycle and i like to be covered with longher thunder duration. Plus with it you can fill your mana easily without waste more time for a schate

I agree, is preferrably to stop casting fire if you foresee you won't be able to afford Thunder, but anyway.. I think they really fucked it up changing mana ticks, it's still doable but you gotta get adapted and I feel it's not as reliable, I used to be able to precast knowing that I would get a mana tick in between my casts every single time. Now I have managed to avoid casting too fast, but sometimes I find myself either I wasted too much time because I waited split a second that wasnt necessary, or I failed to calculate the time and went back into fire without getting the mana back ( I personally don't like waiting till full mp, depending on the situation and thunder duration etc, anyway).

I agree though, with mana ticks being broken, because they are broken now. Before used to have a perfect synergy, the nerf to our scathe (not a very good ability anwyay,) sad blizzard 2 nerf... whichw as totally uncalled for, they could have just changed the blizzard 2 from cross class... it already had low damage. AND to top it off we can't clip double fast casts... I feel that was too much, even if our damage is still fine. I feel they broke our class synergy for nothing really. It would be nice to atleast see a either more responsive firestarter proc, or allow us to stack it to two... So we don't lose em to damn RNG, because honestly, it happens VERY often that you get a new firestarter on that second fire after the first one procced it too.

/sigh.. I really hope we can get our mana ticks back and double-fast casts when switching from AF3 and UI3... To fix flare abuse just make it freaking responsive that it consumes the mana when you successfully casted the spell... -.-

Also I dont know if you guys noticed, but the fast cast is in fact now our cast bar getting cut off by half, like, it used to be faster filling, now it just jumps half the duration ahead when it recognizes you have the right stance on (AF3 or UI3).

What I have been trying that works is:

Bliz III > Thun II > Bliz I > Fire III > Fire I Spam > Repeat

I do a Thunder 2 and then a Bliz 1. Bliz 1 is better damage than Scathe (especially now) and cooldown/cast times really make them cost the same amount of time. And you get a 40% heavy in this rotation.

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Originally Posted by Optikal

What I have been trying that works is:

Bliz III > Thun II > Bliz I > Fire III > Fire I Spam > Repeat

I do a Thunder 2 and then a Bliz 1. Bliz 1 is better damage than Scathe (especially now) and cooldown/cast times really make them cost the same amount of time. And you get a 40% heavy in this rotation.

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why waste a full GCD? T3 is only 1 sec longher and you are full mana anyway

The only issue I have with just agreeing to use T3 is now you have to plan for that extra mana cost of T3. At my current piety level this means clipping a fire from my cast cycle so instead of ending at around 400 mana I am sitting on over 1000 mana left because the threshold moved. I will admit I haven't tested it out yet to see the dps difference, but I assume clipping that fire from your rotation has GOT to be a huge impact... and if instead you just wait for the first regen tick to ensure you have enough for T3, then you might as well just skip T3 altogether because at that point you are REALLY wasting time... (extra .5 second on T3 cast over T2 and whatever time you wasted waiting around for your first mana tick which is up to three seconds)

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Originally Posted by Zerosix

All I know is mana regen is screwed. I can understand changing double dipping, but they rocked the foundation of our class... We are having to try and throw fill in places to make up for it. All in all this results in a pretty big loss.

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I don't understand what you and other black mages are talking about here. I seem to get my mana back just as fast while in umbral ice as I always have. So how did they nerf our mana regen? Because I can't seem to tell a difference.

And so far I have liked this patch. The freeze improvements are significant and actually makes it a decent AoE spell to use while in umbral ice. So I haven't noticed any pretty big losses, at least not as yet. It seems to be an improvement for the class.

blm becomes more boring now because no more inspring tricks we can pull off while having fun. right now, it's just some solid, broad, 1 2 3 4 key spam.... nonetheless, it's harder to tell which blm is more skilful than the other (since they "fixed" the double mashing and ruined the perfect mp tick timer)

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Originally Posted by Dale

I don't understand what you and other black mages are talking about here. I seem to get my mana back just as fast while in umbral ice as I always have. So how did they nerf our mana regen? Because I can't seem to tell a difference.

And so far I have liked this patch. The freeze improvements are significant and actually makes it a decent AoE spell to use while in umbral ice. So I haven't noticed any pretty big losses, at least not as yet. It seems to be an improvement for the class.

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I have to agree. My mana ticks are still as random as ever. Still going strong trying to DF this Garuda HM and craft it up.

I think I have solved the rotation problem. I noticed that the oddities with regen ticks only apply to spells getting the haste buff from UI3/AF3.

New rotation I found works the same as the old rotation where you use fire until just over 400mp > B3 > T2 > F3

But now I go: B3 > T2 > Transpose

Treat the transpose as if it were a Firestarter proc and it is as if nothing happened. As an added bonus your first Fire does more damage than a hasted Fire III.

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Originally Posted by Mattezrah

I think I have solved the rotation problem. I noticed that the oddities with regen ticks only apply to spells getting the haste buff from UI3/AF3.

New rotation I found works the same as the old rotation where you use fire until just over 400mp > B3 > T2 > F3

But now I go: B3 > T2 > Transpose

Treat the transpose as if it were a Firestarter proc and it is as if nothing happened. As an added bonus your first Fire does more damage than a hasted Fire III.

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but we still need to cast a fire3 full mana cost to get in AF3 or shot 2 weaker fire1. I don't like this at all. It's better to wait full mana before shot fire3

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Originally Posted by Dale

I don't understand what you and other black mages are talking about here. I seem to get my mana back just as fast while in umbral ice as I always have. So how did they nerf our mana regen? Because I can't seem to tell a difference.

And so far I have liked this patch. The freeze improvements are significant and actually makes it a decent AoE spell to use while in umbral ice. So I haven't noticed any pretty big losses, at least not as yet. It seems to be an improvement for the class.

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How haven't you noticed? Trust me it's not gamebreaking or anything. What bugs people is that it's just been a certain way for 3 months and now it's different so we have to adjust. I used to be able to cast without watching my mana but now I have to watch it else I risk switching from UI3 to AF3 with no mana tick occuring.

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

but we still need to cast a fire3 full mana cost to get in AF3 or shot 2 weaker fire1. I don't like this at all. It's better to wait full mana before shot fire3

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Yup, I agree with this. The F3 is slower, barely stronger and costs more mana resulting in less fire rotations. It'll work but it isn't the best and you'll end up with a lot less damage in that switch.

After a little testing, it appears this is what happens.
-You'll notice a hiccup when using FireIII or BlizzIII (or any opposite element spell really). My best guess is the safeguard to prevent "Doubles" is a system that checks your stance to the spell your casting and adjusts accordingly. In layman's terms...
1) Your Spellspeed is as if elementally neutral.
2) It checks your stance; It then applies the haste. At this point, your mana is locked. You cannot gain ticks.
3) The spell completes. Your buff switches.
4) Mana resumes as normal.

You CAN still time it to receive a mana tick. However, you do not receive an Ice-stance mana tick, and it requires more waiting. (About 1 second after your tick, instead of immediately after). So with a base mana of 3670, if you time it right, you can start your session with 3610. For the extra time you have to wait, though, I don't think it's worth waiting or stressing over for timing.

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Originally Posted by Sorax

How haven't you noticed? Trust me it's not gamebreaking or anything. What bugs people is that it's just been a certain way for 3 months and now it's different so we have to adjust. I used to be able to cast without watching my mana but now I have to watch it else I risk switching from UI3 to AF3 with no mana tick occuring.

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No I haven't noticed.

I'm not saying it's not there. But if it is, it must not be that significant, and I certainly wouldn't say it has broken the class as I've seen some (not you) say.

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Originally Posted by Dale

No I haven't noticed.

I'm not saying it's not there. But if it is, it must not be that significant, and I certainly wouldn't say it has broken the class as I've seen some (not you) say.

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It's noticeable depending on the rotations you do. Some rotations don't notice the change, however quite a few of them do. Though, plenty of BLM are saying the class is broken and pointless to play now, but they're wrong. They're just used to being overpowered is all.

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plenty of BLM are saying the class is broken and pointless to play now

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Really ? they are overexagerating too much. seriously, it's just a matter of altering the rotation. I don't think it's ground breaking, or game breaking.

They probably made this fix to counter the double flare glitch. Not because they thought the previous mechanic was OP.
But it looks amateurish.

Why ? Because:
Buff Astral Fire 3: Cast Blizzard 3. AF3 is removed 0.5sec before the end of the cast.
Buff Astral Fire 1: Cast Blizzard 1. AF1 is only removed when your spell hits the target.
Buff Astral Fire 1: Cast Blizzard 3. AF1 is only removed when your spell hits the target.

Amateurish fix is amateurish.

So, if they fixed the fast cast of FI after a FIII then why not fix a quick cast FIII after a BI (assuming the BI gives you AI3).

Try this. BI > BI > BI > FIII. If you do it fast enough, the FIII is a slow cast as if you had AI2, not AI3. So they fixed the so called bug one way, as it fixes double flare, but the way it works only for one way instead of the other seems like mechanics are still wrong.

Just an FYI why I noticed this, sometimes if i am doing Flare > convert > Flare > transpose and just casted a Thundercloud proc right before that sequence, there is no reason why i should use a thunder again. So i bI bI then back into rotation. However if i dont wait for my second BI to hit, my FIII is a slow cast as if im still on AI2.

Food for though of why?

I'm noticing that sometimes your will get your mana tick instantly back, and sometimes you wait out a full tick. This is very clumsy feeling.

Hmmm.. To the people who are saying they are sometimes getting their mana back instantly..that always happened; just far less. The change they made is that it seems like after the first second, no matter what, it is 3 seconds before the next tick. I used to never finish the ice stance with 70-80% mana. If I do not cast scathe, or wait a split second, I will not end up with full mana.

No one includes Flare into their single rotation and it is kinda sad. If you are quick, it's a nice dps increase.

T2 > Quelling > F3 > Raging Strikes > F1 > swiftcast > flare > (f3 if proced) > convert > B3 > T2 > F3

After B3:
If mana isn't an instant tick, cast T2 then scathe then F3.
If mana is instant, just do T2 then F3.

After B3 with Fire proc up:
Cast T2 then scathe then wait a small amount, F3.

You can only do Flare with convert, so like every 3 minutes. In the beginning, it's amazing with raging strikes for me with 82 rating I can crit for over 2200.
best of luck

I have been doing lots of testing on different rotations, including what have been suggested on these forums. They almost all workout just no rotation can fully control the ticks. Perfectly timed transpose still instantly gives back 1.2k mana but like it have been mentioned,second and any following tick are always going to be on 3 seconds timer.

The best one that works for me is to just keep my eye on mana ticks and wait extra 0.5 seconds or so accordingly. Your UI3 buff just disappears 0.5 seconds earlier than before and your AF3 applies at the same time as always, and nothing about mana tick timings has been changed as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

The best one that works for me is to just keep my eye on mana ticks and wait extra 0.5 seconds or so accordingly. Your UI3 buff just disappears 0.5 seconds earlier than before and your AF3 applies at the same time as always, and nothing about mana tick timings has been changed as far as I know.

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That is exactly what I am doing for classic rotation, but this is a DPS loss and when you just used a Thundercloud proc right before your Blizzard 3 (= you don't need to cast any Thunder after that blizzard), you cannot simply go back to F3 ignoring thunder because you will now have 0 MP tick, whereas you used to get 2/3 of your MP back by doing this. Ignoring thunder was also very good for Trash Mobs with low hp. Can be replaced with Scathe but far less effective than going back to F3 right after B3.

Someone explain me how this can be logical:

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Buff Umbral Ice 3: Cast Fire 3. UI3 is removed 0.5sec before the end of the cast.
Buff Umbral Ice 1: Cast Fire 1. UI1 is only removed when your spell hits the target.
Buff Umbral Ice 1: Cast Fire 3. UI1 is only removed when your spell hits the target.

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Originally Posted by Louro999

Someone explain me how this can be logical:

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Because only at 3 stacks do you get a reduced cast time. If you want to try to game your mana regen with lesser UI stacks, you can (like for double Flare).
The cast time will still make it a dps loss and it will be unreliable.

So really, they only needed to change UI3 since it has that additional effect.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Because only at 3 stacks do you get a reduced cast time.

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And so what ?
How the cast being faster could justify that the buff should be removed before the spell hits the target ?
UI3 is removed 0.5sec before the end of the cast wheras UI1 is removed after the splell hits the target.

Absurd.

I'm going to look at a new rotation as well. I'm curious why most rotations have Thunder used during UI rather than AF. Isn't it better to snapshot the DOT during the AF3 damage buff?
F3-T1-F1 to OOM or with enough to B3
B3 or B2 till full mana then repeat.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I'm going to look at a new rotation as well. I'm curious why most rotations have Thunder used during UI rather than AF. Isn't it better to snapshot the DOT during the AF3 damage buff?
F3-T1-F1 to OOM or with enough to B3
B3 or B2 till full mana then repeat.

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Thunder is not affected by damage mods of AF.

using mana under AF3 to cast Thunder is a dps loss