Monk rotation now?

So what is the optimal Monk rotation now post 2.1?

The same thing it was before with the one change of demo being rear now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynric

The same thing it was before with the one change of demo being rear now.

---

Yep. And True Strike being from behind is much more important than before.

If you have GL3 up and want to use PB you can just use True Strike through out it as well, assuming Twin Strikes buff and Dragon Kick debuff are up. But, yeah, it is essentially the same rotation as before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Powercow

Yep. And True Strike being from behind is much more important than before.

---

Optimally you would of done this anyway before 2.1 so its not really a change that effects anything you did if you played optimally before

Yeah, if you were using True Strike before anyway then nothing much has changed. Demolish to rear...also Bootshine is a more reliable combo opener for being same potency as Dragon Kick from any angle. Saves you trying to shuffle around to flank before starting.

I think the fact that you apply a dot (maybe 2) and do True Strike is a significant change.
This means you don't fall back to Flank rotation every time you apply your dots.

So....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=ZcqfEca8kR4

So just Get Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes defbuffs maintained , and Spam Bootsine -> True Streke -> Snap Punch from behind or dancing? while also maintaining Demolish/Touch Of Death/Fracture

I start with touch of death, then dragon kick, twin snakes, demolish, fracture, bootshine, true strike, then snap punch, repeat minus the ToD

As I gain GL stacks I throw my ToD refreshers, howling fist, or impulse drives before the demolish/fracture so I don't clip the dots.

This seems to line up perfectly as all the buff timers end as I reapply. Not sure if this is the norm rotation but it seems to be the most fluid.

i do mines a bit different start with ToD>DK>TS>SP> Fracture then i do a rear rotation with demolish then just do flank to reaply DK and TS

hum you shouldnt use rear rotation that early.doing 1 rotation of DK-twin and after directly starting bootshine+true strike isnt that good since you wont have DK debuff up.you need to do 2 rotation of dragon kick since debuff wont apply if you are not in the correct stance.

personaly i do TOD-DK-twin-demo-dk-twin-snap-boot-true-snap

Good point about the DK debuff, I always forget about that. Thanks

Has anyone tested optimal ToD positioning in the rotation with regards to GL3 stacks? I'm thinking now with the 27% damage increase for GL3 it might be holding off until later in the rotation, as the next move after GL3 is reached.

I think demolish would still be worth applying ASAP regardless of current GL3 stack level, because it doesn't slow down building GL3 and has a short duration.

Thoughts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shaone

Has anyone tested optimal ToD positioning in the rotation with regards to GL3 stacks? I'm thinking now with the 27% damage increase for GL3 it might be holding off until later in the rotation, as the next move after GL3 is reached.

I think demolish would still be worth applying ASAP regardless of current GL3 stack level, because it doesn't slow down building GL3 and has a short duration.

Thoughts?

---

This was always the case IMO.

Yeah I'm already working on the assumption that ToD is best after GL3 stacks, would love to get it confirmed :)

So presently my max DPS boss opening on 2.1 goes something like:

Shoulder Tackle -> PB -> Snap, Snap, Snap*, Twin, Dragon, Death, (B4B), Boot, (Internal Release), True, (Steel Peak), Demo, (Howling Fist), Dragon, Twin, Snap, Boot, True, Snap, continue normal position dance and keeping up DoTs.

*Yes this Snap could be a Demolish, but I'm assuming even though it would take me to GL3, it would still be applied with GL2 modifier, so I hold off a little... And no, I don't use Fracture, although I have dabbled in it at times.

Fracture is a DPS loss post-patch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Fracture is a DPS loss post-patch.

---

I had gotten that feeling but had not tested it but after testing it out Fracture isn't worth it anymore.

nothing really changed for me except i have to remember to use demolish from behind

i feel bad for those monks who only did the side rotation, it'll take a while for them to get used to the changes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Fracture is a DPS loss post-patch.

---

How do you figure? It's still as strong as the crit bootshine with about 15.3% crit (which is not really that hard to get) and it still beats out Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, Snap Punch and the buffed True Strike in terms of damage/use.

In a longer fight it's too expensive TP-wise, but how is that any different from 2.0? You still didn't use it when TP was a concern.

Edit - Unless you meant Impulse Drive. And yeah ID sucks now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rochetm

I had gotten that feeling but had not tested it but after testing it out Fracture isn't worth it anymore.

---

Oh, my bad, I just checked other timing options and the scenario where FR is a dps increase is when you use it alternated with Touch of Death if you are not maintaining 100% TOD uptime. I originally added the FR after the TD which causes buff loss unnecessarily which was my error.

Basic Monk cycle:

DK TW DM
BS TR SP
DK TW SP
BS TR DM
DK TW SP
BS TR SP

In this cycle, the main thing is that DK+TW both have a 15s buff duration (which apply for ~15.3 effective duration if the lag and snapshotting this patch is the same as last). With that assumption, the cycle accomodates 7 GCDs. E.g. you can add 1 bonus GCD every 2 rows in the above. For reference, the above rates as "159.1" PPS (autoattacks not factored).

Adding 1 TD boosts that to 161.9.

DK TW DM TD
BS TR SP
DK TW SP
BS TR DM
DK TW SP
BS TR SP

However, TD uptime isn't optimal with this. Ignoring that for a moment, adding Fracture every other DM cycle (for easier timing) ... ?

DK TW DM TD
BS TR SP
DK TW SP
BS TR DM FR
DK TW SP
BS TR SP

This results in 162.8.

But, the timing constraint here is not DM. It is DK/TW. So we should be alternating every DK pair, not every DM. In order to accomodate a proper loop to cycle back to the top, have to extend the set like this:

DK TW DM TD
BS TR SP
DK TW SP FR
BS TR DM
DK TW SP TD
BS TR SP
DK TW DM FR
BS TR SP
DK TW SP TD
BS TR DM
DK TW SP FR
BS TR SP

This results in 162.9. Gained a lot for that optimization and increased TP/s? ... >_<.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Fracture is a DPS loss post-patch.

---

Good cause I hate trying to work it in and I can never tell when the animation goes off lol

Quote:

---

nothing really changed for me except i have to remember to use demolish from behind

i feel bad for those monks who only did the side rotation, it'll take a while for them to get used to the changes

---

This keeps tripping me up. I didn't only do the side rotation but I have to keep reminding myself to move for Demolish.

That's what she said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zakard

hum you shouldnt use rear rotation that early.doing 1 rotation of DK-twin and after directly starting bootshine+true strike isnt that good since you wont have DK debuff up.you need to do 2 rotation of dragon kick since debuff wont apply if you are not in the correct stance.

personaly i do TOD-DK-twin-demo-dk-twin-snap-boot-true-snap

---

yea i revised thanks i noticed that when i was doing that now i do BS after i get my DK debuff

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Powercow

How do you figure? It's still as strong as the crit bootshine with about 15.3% crit (which is not really that hard to get) and it still beats out Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, Snap Punch and the buffed True Strike in terms of damage/use.

In a longer fight it's too expensive TP-wise, but how is that any different from 2.0? You still didn't use it when TP was a concern.

Edit - Unless you meant Impulse Drive. And yeah ID sucks now.

---

yea i usually skip fracture now due to tp long fights.... but i usually apply it in the begining and when i have the 3 GL or when i have to move for a period i know i will lose GL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EasymodeX

However, TD uptime isn't optimal with this. Ignoring that for a moment, adding Fracture every other DM cycle (for easier timing) ... ?

DK TW DM TD
BS TR SP
DK TW SP
BS TR DM FR
DK TW SP
BS TR SP

This results in 162.8.

---

so basically this is the most sensible cycle right now?

TD has a duration of 30 sec, so you need to refresh it ever 5 cycles if you just try to keep TD up. You calculated it for every 6 cycles, but what happens if you do so ever 5 cycles? What is better: Alternating with FR every 3 cycles or just sticking to keeping TD up every 5 cycles?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EasymodeX

This results in 162.9. Gained a lot for that optimization and increased TP/s? ... >_<.

---

That seems really insignificant, lol.
I'm surprised since it's still a fairly strong attack, though Bootshine is already higher and the other two dots are way ahead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naryoril

so basically this is the most sensible cycle right now?

---

Well, I only spent 20 minutes poking at various approaches, but that seems like a "winner for now" -- honestly not much different than a pre-2.1 approach. On the side, there's actually another significantly more convoluted timing for TD/FR that gets +0.1 more PPS, but it's not even worth typing.

Quote:

---

TD has a duration of 30 sec, so you need to refresh it ever 5 cycles if you just try to keep TD up. You calculated it for every 6 cycles, but what happens if you do so ever 5 cycles? What is better: Alternating with FR every 3 cycles or just sticking to keeping TD up every 5 cycles?

---

If you use TD every time it drops immediately, and you only use 1 off-cycle attack (FR) for DK-cycles (2 sets) -- in other words, for DK-cycles where you DON'T use TD, you use FR instead, then you can gain the +0.1 more PPS. #notworth.

This basically requires that you track how many attacks you are using within a DK cycle, and you can't just use the off-cycle attack at the same time in the cycle (e.g. "right before DK") -- you need to stagger it earlier and earlier until you get a TD span overlap that allows a FR, and then you need to make sure you don't use 2 off-cycle attacks between DKs. It's kind of only reasonable on paper.


As a general note, since Bootshine and True are "often" (always) intended to be used every other set now, instead of "when the fight is stable for some minor +DPS", this creates a more sensitive risk for DK/TW buff uptime re: mechanics. As a result, it's worth considering dropping FR and only using TD for fights with lots of mechanics or where you're not comfortable with achieving 100% contact time, because if you inject FRs around then you may drop DK/TW here and there, which removes any purpose for blowing the TP on Fractures.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Well, I only spent 20 minutes poking at various approaches, but that seems like a "winner for now" -- honestly not much different than a pre-2.1 approach. On the side, there's actually another significantly more convoluted timing for TD/FR that gets +0.1 more PPS, but it's not even worth typing.

---

That's why i said "most sensible" ;) It's not the most damaging one, but the one that makes most sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EasymodeX

If you use TD every time it drops immediately, and you only use 1 off-cycle attack (FR) for DK-cycles (2 sets) -- in other words, for DK-cycles where you DON'T use TD, you use FR instead, then you can gain the +0.1 more PPS. #notworth.

This basically requires that you track how many attacks you are using within a DK cycle, and you can't just use the off-cycle attack at the same time in the cycle (e.g. "right before DK") -- you need to stagger it earlier and earlier until you get a TD span overlap that allows a FR, and then you need to make sure you don't use 2 off-cycle attacks between DKs. It's kind of only reasonable on paper.

---

That's not what i meant. What if you just apply TD immediately when it runs out and ignore FR completely. You calculated it for just using 1 TD every 6 cycles, but TD should run out every 5 cycles (assuming your global cooldown is 2 seconds).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naryoril

That's not what i meant. What if you just apply TD immediately when it runs out and ignore FR completely. You calculated it for just using 1 TD every 6 cycles, but TD should run out every 5 cycles (assuming your global cooldown is 2 seconds).

---

That's a DPS loss: you're comparing 98%ish uptime of TD versus 70% uptime of TD plus 40% uptime of FR. The latter wins for DPS.

I'll double check; yeah, it's 162.4. 0.4pps is not a super meaningful DPS loss, so that is worth considering to drop Fracture for (a) pure TP efficiency (you save ~5.5% TP / can burn 5.5% longer), (b) simplicity re: hotkeys and priority rulesets, and (c) xclass skill slots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EasymodeX

That's a DPS loss: you're comparing 98%ish uptime of TD versus 70% uptime of TD plus 40% uptime of FR. The latter wins for DPS.

I'll double check; yeah, it's 162.4. 0.4pps is not a super meaningful DPS loss, so that is worth considering to drop Fracture for (a) pure TP efficiency (you save ~5.5% TP / can burn 5.5% longer), (b) simplicity re: hotkeys and priority rulesets, and (c) xclass skill slots.

---

Great, that's what i wanted to know. Thanks a lot.

Ok ok so 2.1 version of mnk rotation set us still the same, with the exception of dropping FRACTURE!. Why is that? Would it make it more easy to keep DK AND SNAKE BUFF UP?

I won't mind dropping it but I'd like to know if 5% dpS loss is big. What do u guys think of keeping ID?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

Ok ok so 2.1 version of mnk rotation set us still the same, with the exception of dropping FRACTURE!. Why is that? Would it make it more easy to keep DK AND SNAKE BUFF UP?

---

No, not dropping it, but not using it all the time whenever it runs out. The point is, that the other attacks now do more damage than before and it's not worth to let the buffs run out briefly to use fracture. So you only have so many global cooldowns you can use before you need to reapply the buffs, and fracture competes with touch of death for that global cooldown. Of course, if you have high skill speed, you have more time and might be able to get in a full uptime of fracture.

Ok got it. So that means fracture became what TW was, in the sense of having more skill speed so I can keep it with out lossing my buff

This whole fracture thing is so fight specific, though. Realistically you won't see a perfect rotation opportunity outside of standstill tank and spank fights.

I'm not sure why Fracture is becoming such a big deal to you guys right now. If you macro it with Demolish and apply them both together every time, you have no problems with buffs dropping. You can even fit in HoD before applying them.

Once you hit 3 GL stacks you can even HoD, ID, Demo, Fracture and still manage the buffs/debuffs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koopatroopa

I'm not sure why Fracture is becoming such a big deal to you guys right now. If you macro it with Demolish and apply them both together every time, you have no problems with buffs dropping. You can even fit in HoD before applying them.

Once you hit 3 GL stacks you can even HoD, ID, Demo, Fracture and still manage the buffs/debuffs.

---

Only if you do the side rotation twice in a row, which is not desirable since the rear attacks got boosted a lot. Assuming a global cooldown of 2 seconds doing a side and a back rotation take up 12 seconds. The buffs (dragon kick and twin snakes) have a duration of 15 seconds, which means you can squeeze in 1 additional move without loosing the buffs. If you want to squeeze in 2 additional skills, you need a global cooldown of 1.875 seconds, i don't know how much skill speed you need for that or what kind of global cooldown players with ilvl 90 gear have.

That's like +310 SS, or 651 total SS. With low lag you may be able to relax that down to +280 or so, or 621 SS.

Quote:

---

Only if you do the side rotation twice in a row, which is not desirable since the rear attacks got boosted a lot. Assuming a global cooldown of 2 seconds doing a side and a back rotation take up 12 seconds. The buffs (dragon kick and twin snakes) have a duration of 15 seconds, which means you can squeeze in 1 additional move without loosing the buffs. If you want to squeeze in 2 additional skills, you need a global cooldown of 1.875 seconds, i don't know how much skill speed you need for that or what kind of global cooldown players with ilvl 90 gear have

---

Your start is always going to be weak no matter if you do side twice or start back. I'm not sure how that is even relevent to what I said.

if you start back and go snap into the side rotation and end with demo/fracture, you still have enough time to do a full rotation again. With GL2, you will have time to refresh your HoD, and still apply demo/fracture. GL3 will give you time to ID or HF, and demo/fracture.

With GL3 you will be able to do a full side/back rotation, with demo/fracture while using alternating HoD/ID/HF as you switch to back. I'm not sure why you think you need crazy SS because I don't have any. The standard rotation I'm talking about is DK-TS-Demo/Fracture-BS-True-Snap. Again, how you start doesn't matter because your DK or your BS won't be strong anyway. It makes more sense to do a double side so all your backs/dots hit harder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koopatroopa

Your start is always going to be weak no matter if you do side twice or start back. I'm not sure how that is even relevent to what I said.

if you start back and go snap into the side rotation and end with demo/fracture, you still have enough time to do a full rotation again. With GL2, you will have time to refresh your HoD, and still apply demo/fracture. GL3 will give you time to ID or HF, and demo/fracture.

With GL3 you will be able to do a full side/back rotation, with demo/fracture while using alternating HoD/ID/HF as you switch to back. I'm not sure why you think you need crazy SS because I don't have any. The standard rotation I'm talking about is DK-TS-Demo/Fracture-BS-True-Snap. Again, how you start doesn't matter because your DK or your BS won't be strong anyway. It makes more sense to do a double side so all your backs/dots hit harder.

---

I'm not talking about building up GL3 (everything is different there anyway) but about what to do if you can go all out (like WP final boss). Always assuming a cooldown of 2 seconds: Your rotation DK-TS-Demo/Fracture-BS-True-Snap is 7 skills, so it's 14 seconds and you have 1 second of DK and 3 seconds of TS left after finishing it. If you use any other skill than DK now, your DK will run out before you can reapply it, and TS will run out before you can refresh the buff. Thus you can't do ID or anything else (most notably touch of death) without losing the buffs temporarily which means losing 10% of damage on DK and TS, apart from stalling strong attacks like bootshine and true strike. If you had enough skill speed to get a global cooldown of 1.875 seconds you could use another skill and still make it in time before DK and TS ran out.