The nerf people are overlooking

This is a nerf, for better or worse, and I'm not sure if it's good, at least being added this late in the game.

The Primals and dungeons now have requirements.

An ilvl requirement of 57 to battle Titan hard.

Now, speaking as someone who started 2.0 in full DL, and have full DL on all 9 jobs, + all relics, + full level 90 on Paladin and Warrior, I know gear isn't hard to get.

However, for most of my RL friends, including my GF, the second they hit 50, I had them get their relic like 2 hours later by carrying them through titan (in Lan party fashion). This is no longer doable because to get ilvl 57 average requires:

Full AK gear assuming no primal weapon. All buyable gear is lvl 55 (unless you're talking a semi-rich player here, but we're assuming average player can reach here). So full militia is 55, + GC weapon is 55. One ifrit weapon wouldn't push you to 57, in fact you'd still be 55.3. Having a Garuda weapon would still only bring you to 56.4

They're not supposed to get carried.

We can't carry people anymore? Ah, shucks, geegollywiz. Guess they'll have to wait until they are geared a bit more before they get into those runs. =/

I think it will be only requirement if you're soloing and que for duty finder. Unless you're goin with premade, there shouldn't be requirement... At least I think? We'll about find out.

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Originally Posted by meJojo

They're not supposed to get carried.

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One of the ways of playing this game is with friends and family, there is nothing wrong with being carried by people you play with.

Thank god, less spastics in my DF runs.

In a few AK or WP or (enter anything level 50 related here) runs they can afford (level 70) Darklight pieces. Heck, by the time you finish the story you can almost afford a piece. Your Relic requires Philosophy Tomestones to acquire to begin with. You shouldn't even be looking at Titan until you've farmed some Philosophy Tomes.

Not to mention almost everything you do in 2.1 seems like it'll drop Tomes.

Isn't the ilvl requirement only applicable if you want to use the DF? If you do a pre-made 'carry' then I doubt it would apply, as none of the other DF rescritions do.

This is a positive thing. I'm tired of the 'it's my 5th relic' guy in a Titan PUG that can't figure out 3x3s or post heart plumes.

Not that this will fix that, but at least they'll have a few more pieces of DL first and be more likely to survive eating an AOE.

While it sucks for groups of people that had the luxury of carrying their friends through titan, I think this change was more geared for players that don't particularly have an FC right now and use PUGs/Duty finder only to be shocked that the difficulty is such a huge leap forward compared to other things they've done so far.

The item level requirement is just a message that says to those people "WARNING: this is actually more difficult" and I'm all for things that get people interested in not jumping into content blind while also giving them more incentive towards preparation in their gear.

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Average item level requirements have been instated for certain duties.
Your character's average item level is determined by the items you currently have equipped. In addition to class/job level, average item level has been added to the entry requirements for the following duties:
The Navel (Hard) 57 or above

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Makes no distinction about DF

Why can't you just... I dunno... run your friends and family through the DF to get them geared? Why do they need to be rushed through Titan?

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

The Primals and dungeons now have requirements.

An ilvl requirement of 57 to battle Titan hard.

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The only way a person lower than i57 gear can even be successful even before 2.1 is to be carried. Tried a titan run a couple days ago with some tank in ilevel 49 - 55 gear... trying to tank titan hm..... We humored him for 2 attempts before explaining that his equipment just wasn't good enough and the healers spent too much time trying to keep him up that the majority of the DPS didn't even make it through to the heart phase,

I'm sorry but I'm not seeing this as a bad thing ;)

Point was it's been allowed for so long that implementing this change now is kind of ... too little too late. If this was going to be the policy it kind of should have been here already.

A nerf is a nerf, is a nerf. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad one. But a nerf nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

Point was it's been allowed for so long that implementing this change now is kind of ... too little too late. If this was going to be the policy it kind of should have been here already.

A nerf is a nerf, is a nerf. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad one. But a nerf nonetheless.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf_%28video_gaming%29

Mmm no a nerf is a bad thing, it's the definition of a bad thing. You're thinking of change. A change doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing. Nerf does.

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Originally Posted by MiNuN

One of the ways of playing this game is with friends and family, there is nothing wrong with being carried by people you play with.

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It's a double-edged sword, so to speak. There's no doubt it's nice to help people, especially friends and family. However, when you carry someone, they don't truly learn anything, and thus, become a liability in harder content because they just don't have the experience. Of course one can argue about latency and lag and blah blah blah, which I admit, is a huge problem. In such circumstances, no one should be punished from progressing due to SE dropping the ball. However, assuming SE fixes these issues, it becomes a moot point.

If someone else did your homework back in school, did that not count as cheating? Why? Because you didn't learn anything and found a way around the system.

Pretty sure min item level doesn't effect premades. Just like how you can go in with non standard parties in premades you probably can go in with lower then required ilvl.

It isn't too little too late for the people still leveling and seeing the content for the first time, because believe it or not they actually exist. The policy also applies for all content moving forward, as I am sure they will be keeping an eye out on item level requirements for the future.

At least you can do your weekly WP/AK runs with your friends to help them gear out and get myth tomes while also preparing them for titan :)

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Originally Posted by Velox

It's a double-edged sword, so to speak. There's no doubt it's nice to help people, especially friends and family. However, when you carry someone, they don't truly learn anything, and thus, become a liability in harder content because they just don't have the experience.

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Exactly. Why the hell are you trying to get a Relic unprepared when the very content that requires it needs you to be prepared.

I love love love helping my FC members progress and they all are very eager to help each other. The thing is that everyone is willing to put in the effort to make sure they are geared well enough for things to go smoothly and to ensure that they are not a burden.

It's seriously the least you can do and is really just about respect for others involved.

Spending an entire fight dead or otherwise unable to contribute in any significant matter isn't fun and just sours the satisfaction you would get from completing something your first time. It doesn't prepare you for anything in the future. Even for a casual player (of which we have many) it doesn't take long at all to get the mix of AK+DL gear that would be needed to fulfill the iL requirement.

Rushed through titan with my AF gear, GC weapon, and i45 accesories. Pass through heart phase and never die in every duty finder group and eventually cleared it.
You just need good players, including yourself.

Whatever.

Is it crazy to suggest there are just as many undergeared players getting carried through titan as geared players getting carried through titan?

On one hand you have an ilvl55 alt that knows the fight and survives to the end then an ilvl70 guy who's been stuck on the fight for months and still can't make it more than 60 seconds into phase 5.

Which guy is getting carried?

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Originally Posted by MisakiSatomi

Rushed through titan with my AF gear, GC weapon, and i45 accesories. Pass through heart phase and never die in every duty finder group and eventually cleared it.
You just need good players, including yourself.

Whatever.

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You were a burden on the rest of the players, grats.

Also: Being carried through like this is no different at all, to buying a win.

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Originally Posted by Flionheart

You were a burden on the rest of the players, grats.

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I chuckled.

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Originally Posted by KyrosQuickfist

Is it crazy to suggest there are just as many undergeared players getting carried through titan as geared players getting carried through titan?

On one hand you have an ilvl55 alt that knows the fight and survives to the end then an ilvl70 guy who's been stuck on the fight for months and still can't make it more than 60 seconds into phase 5.

Which guy is getting carried?

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An iL55 alt is much different than OP's example of dragging someone to relic quest completion immediately upon hitting their first 50.

Someone getting their alt a relic is more likely to be geared enough since they would have done dungeon runs to get the philo stones for their first relic which would mean they probably have gotten gear drops that are good enough to enter and possibly a primal weapon.

To be perfectly honest, it's a shame it wasn't here MUCH sooner. The damage has already been done at this point.
:/

Purposely carrying, and/or being carried in return doesn't promote anything healthy. I mean, people in pure AF gear or worse in relics, really?

Do you guys remember picking up that random player to fill out your group to do a quick Titan? Remember when that player had four relics but was still unable to dodge plumes or landslides? Pepperidge Farm remembers. (carrying people is bad)

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

An ilvl requirement of 57 to battle Titan hard.
Now, speaking as someone who started 2.0 in full DL, and have full DL on all 9 jobs, + all relics, + full level 90 on Paladin and Warrior
However, for most of my RL friends, including my GF, the second they hit 50, I had them get their relic like 2 hours later by carrying them through titan (in Lan party fashion). This is no longer doable because to get ilvl 57 average requires:
Full AK gear assuming no primal weapon. All buyable gear is lvl 55 (unless you're talking a semi-rich player here, but we're assuming average player can reach here). So full militia is 55, + GC weapon is 55. One ifrit weapon wouldn't push you to 57, in fact you'd still be 55.3. Having a Garuda weapon would still only bring you to 56.4

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The crafted ilvl 70 gears will be much cheaper now so you can afford to buy a couple of really cheap ilvl 70 pieces to bump that average ilvl up. Problems solved.

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Originally Posted by MisakiSatomi

Rushed through titan with my AF gear, GC weapon, and i45 accesories. Pass through heart phase and never die in every duty finder group and eventually cleared it.
You just need good players, including yourself.

Whatever.

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Because if the 7 others in the group were similarly geared as you were, you would've been able to clear it through pure "skill".

Whatever helps you sleep at night. :rolleyes:

So it takes a couple extra days to get your relic now.
Would think you'd rather enjoy spending time w/ the GF teaching her the mechanics and allowing her to enjoy the pride of not being carried.
She may turn out to be a better player than you if you allow her to progress naturally.

Thank god. Was getting tired of newbs in AH gear running around with relics.

it is a nerf. I'm a new paladin and ilevel ifrit hard mode is overkill for a pretty easy fight.

WP/AK actually much harder with normal geared party. It's easy to forget when you're speed running way overgeared. They're making it easier though, and Ifrt as well. Farming Castrum for phil to get i70 is putting the cart before the horse and super boring.

If anyone was being carried it's the players who started earlier could speed run these places pre patched. Pat yourself on the back for easy mode.

The way it worked in Tera was if you df'd for content you had to meet the iLvl requirements for the dungeons u qued up for because you didn't meet the required iLvl number you couldn't add a dungeon to your selection que because it would be greyed out until you did meet the iLvl for it, but if you went with a premade you didn't have to meet iLvl requirements because you entered the dungeon with a premade and directly at the dungeon's entrance. Perhaps it will be like that here.

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

Point was it's been allowed for so long that implementing this change now is kind of ... too little too late. If this was going to be the policy it kind of should have been here already.

A nerf is a nerf, is a nerf. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad one. But a nerf nonetheless.

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It is not a nerf for those who enter DF dungeons appropriately geared and have been getting saddled with under geared players expecting to get carried. It's a buff.

That said, I have actually never had that problem, though I have FC mates who have.

So I don't have to spend an extra half-hour carrying people with all ilvl 30-40 jewelery through AK anymore? Sweet tits. Won't have to deal with nearly as many morons who can't even hit the damn mobs. Will be nice to see people actually putting forth effort for their rewards now, too.

The only problem I have with this is that it is being added this late to the game to existing content. If anything most of the damage has already been done. I don't care if new dungeons come with gear requirements, but old content with new requirements just seems that new players will be more at disadvantage than "seasoned" players.

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Originally Posted by MisakiSatomi

Rushed through titan with my AF gear, GC weapon, and i45 accesories. Pass through heart phase and never die in every duty finder group and eventually cleared it.
You just need good players, including yourself.

Whatever.

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As a dpser I can see that as a possibility as long as you avoided everything you can avoid. However, if all the other dps players had GC weapons the group would not have been able to pass the dps check during the heart phase, so you were still carried. Now, tanking Titan HM with a GC weapon is perfectly doable (I did it because after 60 or so Ifrit/Garuda runs the RNG still hated me), but I also did it with full DL armour. For a tank on Titan HM it's an armour check, not a weapon check.