Bard role changed from Support to Caster Pet

Thank you SE for the clarification! May you have a Merry Xmas.

On a serious note, should I respec from DEX to PIE? More mana will allow us to keep Mage's Ballad or Foe's Requiem up longer. Thoughts?

So, nothing has really changed for Bards.

The only loss was 20% from a 25% uptime buff, and 10% crit from a 25% uptime buff.

Giving you rough numbers, this is a roughly a 5% dps loss and a 1.25% dps loss.

6.25% dps?

Though thanks for putting in perspective summoner's woes though.

honestly, brd should stop crying...

people were always looking for BRD for coil.... almost every party had 2 brd

its just a balance, you will always been wanted for your special role

Rain of death now reduces evasion of target instead of 10% dmg. Byebye need for bards.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Rain of death now reduces evasion of target instead of 10% dmg.

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Kinda surprised more people don't mention this. 10% damage reduction is no joke, and losing it makes things harder for everyone, not just Bards.
Add in the fact that you can no longer chain Viruses any more often than once every minute, and I don't envy the sudden ramp-up of mitigation-less damage that healers are going to have to deal with.

They gave RoD's effect to Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Norbi

Kinda surprised more people don't mention this. 10% damage reduction is no joke, and losing it makes things harder for everyone, not just Bards.
Add in the fact that you can no longer chain Viruses any more often than once every minute, and I don't envy the sudden ramp-up of mitigation-less damage that healers are going to have to deal with.

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You're pretty much meant to take a PLD and WAR now for the extra damage debuff

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Rain of death now reduces evasion of target instead of 10% dmg. Byebye need for bards.

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doesnt a 10% evasion debuff mean that everyone's required accuracy cap just got lowered? i could see a pretty good utility in that

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Originally Posted by TheHomieData

doesnt a 10% evasion debuff mean that everyone's required accuracy cap just got lowered? i could see a pretty good utility in that

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Good luck keeping it up permanently at that 200 tp cost

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Originally Posted by TheHomieData

doesnt a 10% evasion debuff mean that everyone's required accuracy cap just got lowered? i could see a pretty good utility in that

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I don't imagine many bards would be happy to hold back an entire dungeon just so their party can wear slightly different equipment.

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

Good luck keeping it up permanently at that 200 tp cost

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http://i42.tinypic.com/20hkoau.jpg
didn't notice that.

I screamed "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!" when I saw what they did with Rain of Death. I'm sorry, but I loved using the move right after the tank grabbed the aggro to lower the amount of healing the healer had to pull on everybody. But now there's nothing I can do for that, and the healer shall have a harder time now. T_T

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I screamed "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!" when I saw what they did with Rain of Death. I'm sorry, but I loved using the move right after the tank grabbed the aggro to lower the amount of healing the healer had to pull on everybody. But now there's nothing I can do for that, and the healer shall have a harder time now. T_T

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Except lustrate ;)

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Originally Posted by TheHomieData

http://i42.tinypic.com/20hkoau.jpg
didn't notice that.

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I lol'd very hard

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Originally Posted by Devaking55

Except lustrate ;)

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I do get why they pulled it though. Bards being able to throw that around in PvP? We'd be mandatory for all fights in the Wolves Den to keep your team from taking too much damage. That's probably the main reason they changed it, something I really should have seen coming. Too bad it effects us in dungeons too.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

So, nothing has really changed for Bards.

The only loss was 20% from a 25% uptime buff, and 10% crit from a 25% uptime buff.

Giving you rough numbers, this is a roughly a 5% dps loss and a 1.25% dps loss.

6.25% dps?

Though thanks for putting in perspective summoner's woes though.

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actually it's a 3.75% loss because they still keep 10% from BfB
also Ryu, it most likely got changed because of WAR's new debuff. It is crappy that they stacked the virus nerf on top of it though (group wise, it still sucks for brds that they made RoD useless), plus it won't be up for profusion unless you have a really brave Warrior

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I do get why they pulled it though. Bards being able to throw that around in PvP? We'd be mandatory for all fights in the Wolves Den to keep your team from taking too much damage. That's probably the main reason they changed it, something I really should have seen coming. Too bad it effects us in dungeons too.

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Wait... so they're balancing jobs based on PvP and not PvE mechanics?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I do get why they pulled it though. Bards being able to throw that around in PvP? We'd be mandatory for all fights in the Wolves Den to keep your team from taking too much damage. That's probably the main reason they changed it, something I really should have seen coming. Too bad it effects us in dungeons too.

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Probably also has something to do with them giving warriors the debuff. And maybe some backhanded response to the bards always complaining about supporting too much and DPSing too little. I wonder if the TP saved (and minor benefit of an extra GCD) adds up to anything beneficial though.

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Originally Posted by Sylari

Probably also has something to do with them giving warriors the debuff. And maybe some backhanded response to the bards always complaining about supporting too much and DPSing too little. I wonder if the TP saved (and minor benefit of an extra GCD) adds up to anything beneficial though.

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I highly doubt it
A BRD who would use it often enough to have a meaningful effect on their dps either doesn't care about ever having TP (or doing higher DPS in the first place) or runs with a very undergeared group. Or a group that doesn't have virus, I guess.

But yeah, I do hope it's a change made for balance with WAR's new skills, because lol@balancing pve around pvp
They could just change how the skill functions in PvP if it were an issue.

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Originally Posted by Sylari

Probably also has something to do with them giving warriors the debuff. And maybe some backhanded response to the bards always complaining about supporting too much and DPSing too little. I wonder if the TP saved (and minor benefit of an extra GCD) adds up to anything beneficial though.

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I really only used the skill for tough pulls in WP or AK to help keep the burden off the healer...and for the 2nd boss in WP whenever he summons his little helpers. Other than that, I didn't use it much at all. Most it does if I don't use it is give me some extra TP for the other skills, but I rarely run out of TP as is unless the other DPS isn't pulling his/her weight. If they're pulling their weight, things die far too fast for the one use of Rain of Death to really take anything away as is. If anything, this won't effect much of the output on my end or how much TP I have left...it'll only effect how much the healer is going to have to work if a Warrior isn't in the party after the patch, at least for mobs. Bosses...I don't waste the TP if it's only going to hit one target.

The RoD has nothing to do with PvP they have said over and over they are balancing separately.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

They gave RoD's effect to Warrior.

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Storm's Path is, sadly, single target. Seems like it's not gonna be nearly as useful as Rain of Death was if there are a bunch of targets (Turn 4, for example) or if the targets are spread out (like Caduceus post-split).

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Originally Posted by Maku

The RoD has nothing to do with PvP they have said over and over they are balancing separately.

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Then why was the least used skill in the game nerfed
(that'd be shadowbind)

Maybe this nerf will show who the true Bards are, the people who originally picked it because they liked it most. And didn't just play it because it was OP.

The same reason freeze was buffed (tied for the least used skill in the game) No one was using either, now they'll both find a purpose. One will be for PvP, one will be for PvE. And who knows, shadowbind may not even survive on a skillbar with all the PvP actions that are coming.

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

Then why was the least used skill in the game nerfed
(that'd be shadowbind)

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Just read through all the patch notes. I take back what I said and apologize. They were lying. They are balancing a PvE games based off of PvP. Fan-*#&$ing- tastic.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

The same reason freeze was buffed

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Freeze was buffed so it could slot into the BLM's AoE rotation.

Because they dropped thunder and wanted to keep the same # of abilities available so they changed up blizzard 2, so they buffed freeze to replace it (in theory) . . . yes yes yes. I know all that. If freeze wasn't buffed, and maybe even though it has been, I'd still would, or maybe still will, be using b2 in my aoe rotation. Cannot find out til it's patched. I'm glad they're involving even un/underused abilities in their balancing act.

Also, after looking at the vast amounts of crap added for PvP. . . I doubt they give too much of a crap about shadowbind in PvP, though I cannot say that it didn't enter into their minds when changing the timer.

Even though Bards consider the RoD debuff trasnfer from Brd to War a nerf, I never really saw many bards use it unless asked. In all honesty, the only time i saw bards use it consistantly is in turn 4 (with a large group of mobs) with the large groups and dreads. Now, since war will have it he won't have to bother the bard to get it and the bard can concentrate on DPS more? The other tuns in coil won't matter so much since you may now have a war with you attacking the target and applying the debuff (Excluding T1 for Main/Offtank which ever one isn't the war.)

Adding a evasion debuff isn't bad though. As people are getting their gear to hit/reach accuracy caps, this can be thrown down to help with connecting attacks until your group is properly geared. Just a thought though, I know most people don't like nerfs.

Realistically speaking a debuff to evasion is probably worthless in PvE. Since you are not absolutely 100% guaranteed to have it, you better have gear good enough to reach the accuracy cap no matter what (and it's not like the purchasable gear available now isn't absolutely awash in accuracy anyway). In PVP, it'd be a counter to enemy teams using featherfoot on everyone who can slot it, so... barely useful...?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I do get why they pulled it though. Bards being able to throw that around in PvP? We'd be mandatory for all fights in the Wolves Den to keep your team from taking too much damage. That's probably the main reason they changed it, something I really should have seen coming. Too bad it effects us in dungeons too.

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This is basically a PvE game. If the tacked on PvP part ends up significantly impacting PvE, that's going to be really bad. MMO's like eq2 basically modifiy spells/abilities based on whether one is engaged in PvE or PvP. For example, sleep duration and immunity would be completely different for PvE and PvP. If PvE gets changed for the sake of PvP balance, that'll be bad news.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

... and 10% crit from a 25% uptime buff.
Giving you rough numbers .... a 1.25% dps loss.

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The Internal release nerf is more than 10% off a 25% up-time crit buff.
You can't ignore River of Blood and the fact that you can re-apply your dots before IR expires to keep that 20% going for another ~18 seconds.

All said and done, it's probably going to turn out to be close to a 7.5% DPS nerf to a class that was already 20% behind at endgame. :( Which would be totally fine if they compensated with tweaks to our support to make it a bit better.

INSTEAD, they even nerfed our support...
If that's not something to worry about, then honestly, I don't know what is.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Even though Bards consider the RoD debuff trasnfer from Brd to War a nerf, I never really saw many bards use it unless asked. In all honesty, the only time i saw bards use it consistantly is in turn 4.

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Death Sentence? Titan Stomps? WP speedruns? There were several important uses for it.
It's no different than if they moved Sacred soil to War as a new single target ability.
Any idea how many scholars would sh*& a brick if that happened?

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Now, since war will have it he won't have to bother the bard to get it and the bard can concentrate on DPS more?

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Except they just nerfed our dps... so...

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Originally Posted by Bardo

INSTEAD, they even nerfed our support...
If that's not something to worry about, then honestly, I don't know what is.

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Hey, i don't think bards have anything to worry about, the way coil is designed (until groups start remembering that paladins and monks also have silence)

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Originally Posted by Norondor

Hey, I don't think bards have anything to worry about, the way coil is designed (until groups start remembering that paladins and monks also have silence)

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Well, it's really ONLY Turn2. Without RoD, None of our support will matter as much for any of the other turns.
I mean as long as you have a few mages, Bard is still going to be ok for any 8 man content due to Foe Req.

But that's not the point.
You can't balance a class based on 1 dungeon or group setup.
Unfortunately, Coil is only a small portion of the game so a LOT of Bards who aren't raiding are going to get left by the wayside with these changes.

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

Then why was the least used skill in the game nerfed
(that'd be shadowbind)

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Moogle King Battle.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Death Sentence? Titan Stomps? WP speedruns? There were several important uses for it.

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Most bards I have seen do not use it on Titan stomps, Don't think I've actually seen it. Also, even if they did and you gave the -10% damage debuf to war who was tanking it, he is more likely to apply it on a regular basis because his tanking depends on it. He now doesn't have to bother the bard for it.

WP speed runs, we're counting that for it's usefulness? Okay I guess.

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It's no different than if they moved Sacred soil to War as a new single target ability.
Any idea how many scholars would sh*& a brick if that happened?

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This comparison is a bit of a stretch to me, considering Sacred soil is used more often than not to decrease unavoidable AoE damage. RoD was more used to help the tank when tanking groups of mobs (and the healer). Grant it, it would still help a lot for large groups of mobs, that the tank should be holding aggro on, I.E turn 4. This also helps on your speed runs, which we all know SE isn't fond of. It was an inadvertent way of nerfing speed runs imo.

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Except they just nerfed our dps... so...

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From what I understand, the nerf to your DPS was not very significant compared to BLM or SMN. Only time will tell though I guess.

I know this much, if they had given it to war and allowed bard to keep it. They definitely would not have stacked (that much I'm sure of), so bards would use it even less unless they were continuously fighting large groups of mobs.

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Originally Posted by OptimalZedd

honestly, brd should stop crying...

people were always looking for BRD for coil.... almost every party had 2 brd

its just a balance, you will always been wanted for your special role

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Wrong, no decent coil grp stack'd 2 brd's in coild pre 2.1.
This is not a class Balance, its a casual player Balance.

And tbh, stop using the Word crying if ur past the age of 12, couse its an opinion about classes and content, not crying.

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Originally Posted by Phai

Wrong, no decent coil grp stack'd 2 brd's in coild pre 2.1.
This is not a class Balance, its a casual player Balance.

And tbh, stop using the Word crying if ur past the age of 12, couse its an opinion about classes and content, not crying.

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Err. . .world first Twintania clear by BG had 2x BRD. Don't know why, since they barely used the songs at all; but I'm not going to say they don't qualify as a decent coil group.

Warrior can only apply the debuff to one thing at a time, and it's at the end of a 3 hit combo that doesn't have an enmity multiplier. It'll be used, because Maim is a thing and the debuff is good, but it won't really be applied to groups of enemies anymore whereas it'll be up more reliably against bosses (especially if WAR is OT).

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Err. . .world first Twintania clear by BG had 2x BRD. Don't know why, since they barely used the songs at all; but I'm not going to say they don't qualify as a decent coil group.

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And hence all copy/pasted the setup, tho its Clear 2 brds pre 2.1 is gimped. The reason ppl shout for 2 brds for grps are due to silence duty, and this issue still stands.
No one can say that 2x brd is OP/needed due to dps or utility in coil.