BLM Invisible Nerf

It hasnt been mentionned in patch notes, since it was more or less something that was broken, and watching Yoshi-P playing his BLM on extreme Titan i noticed that :

MP regen Tick is now SYNCED, that means , the tick gonna kick in every 3 sec after entering Umbral mode

before you could manage to get the tick just after bliz 3, so its a loss of 1.5sec average on every cycle

Double flare now impossible, fire 1 following bliz III> fire III > will be casted on normal speed, so its another 0.5 sec

Im not crying nerf cause i find it better that way , and its how SE has designed it

But just for people to know, i predict BLM will have a 5-10% overall dmg nerf

i parse 310 dps on lv 50 dummy, i think i gonna do down to 290 dps now, i will update with the new parse next week

Can we WAIT until it comes out before people start calling doom on the game?

its not calling doom, its just observation and thinking

we were just exploiting a broken mechanic

now reread my post and look if i speak negatively, you re the one not interpreting it good

I'm hoping they also fix "eating" firestarter procs. I lose so much dps because the proc doesn't appear until i already am mid-cast on another fire1, then i use fire 3 and i get another proc, but it is "eaten" by my fire3.

If they fix that, even with the nerfs on mana syncing, BLM will have a dps increase.

BLM is already top dps

i dont think u will have firestarter proc asap, cause server need to receive that you casted fire 1, then send you back the proc, but you re already casting another fire 1

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Originally Posted by OptimalZedd

BLM is already top dps

i dont think u will have firestarter proc asap, cause server need to receive that you casted fire 1, then send you back the proc, but you re already casting another fire 1

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That is the exact same process it takes to change from UI3 to AF3.
The server needs to receive that you casted Fire III and grant you AF3, but you are already casting another Fire I.
Server delay or purposeful 'on impact' design, I don't see one changing without the other.

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Originally Posted by OptimalZedd

BLM is already top dps

i dont think u will have firestarter proc asap, cause server need to receive that you casted fire 1, then send you back the proc, but you re already casting another fire 1

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Blm is far from top dps.

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Originally Posted by OptimalZedd

BLM is already top dps

i dont think u will have firestarter proc asap, cause server need to receive that you casted fire 1, then send you back the proc, but you re already casting another fire 1

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No, SMN is, followed by MNK on single target encounters. BLMs are top DPS only in AOE situations.

OT: This is far worse than predicted. Essentially, its 1-3 seconds of downtime added to every rotation, in addition to the changes to double dipping... while we cant say for sure, this could end up being worth close to 15% overall damage output. For a single nerf, this is utterly substantial, and if it holds up to be true, BLM will actually take a seat at the bottom of the DPS ladder. We will only know when we test it out later.

Dont count on firestarter procs being usable immediately.

Summoners think they will be. Bards think they will be. Black mages think they will be. Welcome to patch notes.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Summoners think they will be. Bards think they will be. Black mages think they will be. Welcome to patch notes.

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Just based on numbers alone, bards probably have it easier than either summoner or black mages.

Internal Release/Blood for Blood have a 25% uptime, which works out to somewhere between 3.75% to a 5% damage loss (counting extra River of Blood procs).

Summoners losing thunder and BLMs losing double dipping on cast times will likely result in much more of a nerf.

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Originally Posted by ProxyTooMuch

Just based on numbers alone, bards probably have it easier than either summoner or black mages.

Internal Release/Blood for Blood have a 25% uptime, which works out to somewhere between 3.75% to a 5% damage loss (counting extra River of Blood procs).

Summoners losing thunder and BLMs losing double dipping on cast times will likely result in much more of a nerf.

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BLM was miles ahead of BRD anyway, so was SMN. That's why they call it balancing~ The melee buffs, which I'll be happy to reap the benefit of, seem to be the opposite of balance. I'm sure I am in the minority here, but I also like a reduction in the LB bar for doubling (or more) up on jobs. It's a neat idea! That said..... I do not like that they're punishing people who maybe just all like to play blm or drg for partying together. Just let people play. The neatness of 1x each job outweighs the "seriously?" that I feel about the second point.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I'm sure I am in the minority here, but I also like a reduction in the LB bar for doubling (or more) up on jobs.

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My concern with this change is that it punishes casual players who are more interested in playing what they want than group stacking and that if it's significant enough to really matter it seems like it'd be more of a bandaid to class balance than. Sort of a "well the classes aren't balanced that well but you have to bring one of everything anyways"

Hoping it's a relatively minor sort of perk rather than a significant detriment.

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Originally Posted by Sylari

My concern with this change is that it punishes casual players who are more interested in playing what they want than group stacking and that if it's significant enough to really matter it seems like it'd be more of a bandaid to class balance than. Sort of a "well the classes aren't balanced that well but you have to bring one of everything anyways"

Hoping it's a relatively minor sort of perk rather than a significant detriment.

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I think they did an acceptable job of balancing, for now. The one fear is that melee are going to be -too- strong now when coupled with the ranged nerfs. Everyone does a similar (similar enough) amount of damage that bringing one of everything should work just fine.

Say mnk is 5-10% better than drg, but the LB builds fairly slower with two monks, having one of each leads to the same damage for the party. I'm okay with that. Too many people get hung up on personal DPS.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I think they did an acceptable job of balancing, for now. The one fear is that melee are going to be -too- strong now when coupled with the ranged nerfs. Everyone does a similar (similar enough) amount of damage that bringing one of everything should work just fine.

Say mnk is 5-10% better than drg, but the LB builds fairly slower with two monks, having one of each leads to the same damage for the party. I'm okay with that. Too many people get hung up on personal DPS.

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People get hung up on it because otherwise it leads to tokenism. People tend to like to contribute in a big way. The dragoon wants to be there because he's an awesome DPS, not because he's 'the token dragoon who we need to bring along because otherwise we don't build limit fast enough'.

That's all theoretical of course.

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Originally Posted by Sylari

People get hung up on it because otherwise it leads to tokenism. People tend to like to contribute in a big way. The dragoon wants to be there because he's an awesome DPS, not because he's 'the token dragoon who we need to bring along because otherwise we don't build limit fast enough'.

That's all theoretical of course.

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It is indeed, and I addressed it when I said that everyone [I'll rephrase] should be doing similar enough damage after this stuff that it will not be tokenism to bring one of everything. People do not get hung up (edit: on DPS) to avoid tokenism, just to be clear; that is a fallacy. People get hung up on it cuz it makes them feel good to be the big dog. Nothing to do about that, it's in human nature. There are exceptions to that, you may well be one, but be sure the main reason is to feel superior.

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Originally Posted by Sylari

People get hung up on it because otherwise it leads to tokenism. People tend to like to contribute in a big way. The dragoon wants to be there because he's an awesome DPS, not because he's 'the token dragoon who we need to bring along because otherwise we don't build limit fast enough'.

That's all theoretical of course.

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Before these changes melee was relegated to being the token class brought just to use the melee LB.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Say mnk is 5-10% better than drg, but the LB builds fairly slower with two monks, having one of each leads to the same damage for the party. I'm okay with that. Too many people get hung up on personal DPS.

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... You might well be ok with that, but you shouldn't be! This is a terrible change, as a fair number of fights are designed to lean heavily on LB as a core part of the group's strategy -- Ifrit and Garuda and potentially Titan depending on group composition, as well as portions of coil and dungeons where it might be a big part of how you want to approach the fight, even if it's not critical to success. I'm assuming you've seen the 2.1 trailer -- i doubt that the tactical use of limit breaks will be less essential on Ifrit extreme than hard.

This change doesn't eliminate the problem of groups playing favorites with flavor of the month classes -- it either exacerbates it, or at best, just complicates it. In the case that a class is really broken by changes (hi SMNs!) this means that they'll now be an albatross in otherwise-viable groups on fights where limit is a concern. How awful!

to the OP: looking at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tibft...ature=youtu.be

from the last blizzard III he does to the first mana tic it doesn't seem to take 3s. just have to wait 2 more days to see the whole impact

fyi; 2 flare aint impossible even if they change mp regen for umbral, flare > convert > flare

This didn't happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tibft_mrmqA

1:02 Yoshi enters Umbral Ice
1:02 Yoshi casts Thunder 2 (approx 2.85 cast time depending on gear)
1:04 With 0.83 left on Thunder 2 cast, Yoshi gets a mana regen tick, so for this rotation there was 2s between Ice Form and Mana.

He gets a second mana tick towards the end of Fire 3 as normal.

1:28 Yoshi transposes into Ice for Jump
1:31 Mana Regen tick

2:05 Blizzard 3 into Ice
2:07 Mana tick

To fix double flare, I don't know what they did, but it isn't what you've posted.

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Originally Posted by Sylari

My concern with this change is that it punishes casual players who are more interested in playing what they want than group stacking and that if it's significant enough to really matter it seems like it'd be more of a bandaid to class balance than.

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I kinda view it the opposite way. Most casual players aren't going to care too much about how fast the LB builds. At worst they'll stand around in an early phase to build the LB bar (like how many did for Titan to LB the heart if dps couldn't burn the heart without a LB anyway). The hardcore players will care much more about how fast the LB builds because they'll be paying attention to not only when they can use it the first time, but also their subsequent uses of it later in the fight. They're the ones you had to worry about class stacking and benching other jobs anyway. I feel that casual players are also more likely to get more gear before doing a fight and thus outgear it, so more room to play with.


I seem to recall them mention class stacking impacting how fast the LB builds awhile ago - around when they talked about content up through Ifrit HM being balanced without cross-class abilities in mind. Maybe they were referring to the upcoming change, or maybe it was already in and the patch is just making the difference more pronounced if you class stack.

To clarify, there was always a LB penalty for class stacking. They are just making is worse than before. How much worse? we will have to wait and see. But it was indeed always there. Our T5 group has no class doubles in it right now, and we were running with a pug friend who was rather shocked that we were getting LB3 right at the end of P2 instead of it "just barely" making it up in time for the end of P3, which is like 2 minutes sooner than he was used to. Class stacking was a huge hit before, and now I expect it to be even worse to the point where you will barely have a LB2 up by the time you need it for P3 of T5.

To the issue of the timing of umbral and astral ticks/buff/whatever, the video has been pulled from youtube, however if what you are suggesting is true then this is good news :)

The additional LB penalty for stacking classes was completely unnecessary, coming from someone who has 8 different classes in our Coil group.

Its a fix, not a nerf. Double dipping was never intended.
Nerfs are changes to things that WERE intended but devs changed their mind. A Fix is a change to something that was never intended, to make it work how it IS intended.

Yeah, its a bit of a nitpick. But I see these 2 terms being used interchangeably way too often on these forums.

I got to see the video but I had reached my daily post cap and couldn't reply.

The mana ticks were definitely not 3 seconds.
Please stop spreading this from the OP's casual observation. Anyone like SongJoohee who looked at the video carefully could've seen this.

They did seem to fix the double quick cast, however.
I kept repeating the part of the video where Yoshi transitioned to AF3. What I found was that there was no buff during the casting of UI3 and then he was granted AF3 after the cast.
This could mean:
A) Casting the Fire III removes the UI3 and finishing the cast gives you AF3. (This could mean interrupting the cast will make you lose the buff)
B) It was a natural delay between the buffs which means that starting the cast of Fire III will change your buffs. (This seems abuse-able and unlikely)
C) Something I haven't thought of.

Please don't use either options as something definitive. We will see on Tuesday what the situation is.
Knowing the buff disappeared during the cast is still something. I paused the video during his casting (with the cast bar halfway) and there was no buff but it had not run out of time cause he had just casted it (he skipped thunder to burn the gaol).

The mana ticks were one server time as they always are. Each differed in speed and only one was even close to 3 seconds.

What concerns me is IF they really did "fix" the double quick cast, for one very simple reason.
I am a Highlander. I have THE lowest racial piety of all classes. I have 3629 MP (239 PIE) with no additional points in PIE, or PIE on any of my gear.
As it stands, I need an extra 12 PIE to be able to do the 5 Fire 1 rotation -> B3 -> T2 -> F3.

My answer to this issue is the double F3 rotation, which lets me do equal, if not slightly greater dps using my bare minimum mana pool.

Now, if they would be so kind as to reduce the mana cost of F1 to 310, so it costs 620 in AF3, and then reduce the cost of of each of the Thunder spells by 5 for example, then ANY race would be able to perform the "ideal" BLM rotation without needing to spend additional points in PIE at the cost of damage.
As it stands, if they "fix" things, I am going to be kinda gimped as a BLM simply because I chose to be a Highlander.

Now the other option, as I am sure someone will boldly mention is to use Thunder 1 instead of Thunder 2... Again, lowering my dps BECAUSE I chose a particular race... When they said that your race would NOT affect your endgame potential.

Not invisible. They've already said they were going to fix the double flares

All throughout the BLM quests we are reminded how we are sacrificing our souls in order to deal the most destructive power of any class. So my question is, is that still going to be the case? Or have they nerfed us that we're no better than a DRG? Actually worse because DRG has no cast time and can move while dps'ing.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

A) Casting the Fire III removes the UI3 and finishing the cast gives you AF3. (This could mean interrupting the cast will make you lose the buff)

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Wouldn't this mean we have to pay higher mana cost for F3 and B3 while switching between stances with those spells? That could very easily end up costing BLMs one Fire cast per cycle, or always having to wait for mana tick to use Thunder or something. I hope I'm over-thinking this.