The Inner Beast change is not a buff, it isn't even a neutral change. This is a flat out nerf on all content that isn't Twintania, and even for Twintania it is either somewhat neutral or still bad depending on crits and Berserk usage.
Now that that's out of the way, let me explain why this is true.
In the current game, Inner Beast heals me for about 2100 in a raid with no crit and not using Berserk. However, I am going from memory here and I don't have a screenshot of this. Getting one would prove bothersome, so i went and punched a dummy all by my lonesome and got an average of around 1500 healed. For this thread, I will use this number (500/1500) as it is about what I used to get with only 2 pieces of i90 and gryphonskin.
The changed Inner Beast will heal you for 100% of the amount damaged (500) and then apply a damage reduction of 20% for 6 seconds. So anytime the 20% damage reduction reduces damage by more than 200% of the damage done by Inner Beast (1000), the changed spell is going to be better. Which means any time you take 5000 damage or more over that 6 second period, a winner is you!
Looks great, there are several encounters where you will take 5000 damage in 6 seconds, even Titan will hit you that hard with Mountain buster followed by Rock Buster or an auto-attack! But here is where it starts to fall apart.
First, lets look at that 100% heal that Inner Beast still has, and think about when we're using the ability and what the likely outcome is. You want to use this ability a second or two before the big hit you're trying to counter. If this DR buff behaves like other buffs, it's not going to be instant and you'll want to have it active for a second or two before the ability you're trying to reduce. As such, you are likely to only reduce the attack you're trying for and anything immediately following, it simply doesn't last long enough to get the next attacks and since most large hits come with a wind-up, you are unlikely to get anything before it either. So, you've used Inner Beast a second before the big hit, and you've received your 500pt heal. If you're not at full health at this point, then your healers are struggling and it might be useful. However, you should already be at full health and with the way spike damage in this game works, if you're not at full health, you're probably going to die. So quite often, this heal is going to be completely wasted as overhealing. Now, if we ignore this heal, then you now have to be taking 7500 damage within that 6 seconds. Still doable. Death Sentence hits about this hard if it is completely ignored (i.e no Virus, no Eye for an Eye) and then there's usually a plumet or auto-attack afterwards. Of course almost nothing else in the game hits anywhere near that hard, but it could still be useful!
Next, let's factor in Berserk. Berserk can't be used for all Inner Beasts, but it can be used for some and when it is used it is 100% reliable. Berserk puts my solo Inner Beast up to 700ish (about a 40% increase) which would give me a 2100 heal. We now have 2100hp that needs to be made up by the 20%DR. This means I have to take 10500 damage from the big spike and whatever follows. We're now past anything that the game can throw at us except an un-de-buffed Death Sentence followed by a Plummet. For this to happen, your healers and mages have to be terrible, and whoever is driving the luck bus has to hate you. This does happen, but it is rare.
Next let's factor in a crit and then the absolute best case for the current setup, a crit while Berserk is active. Crits are entirely random, you cannot rely on them, you cannot trigger them, they are completely random and you should not balance around them. Having said that, they do happen and I will account for them. My solo Inner Beast hit for 500. A crit would bring that up to 750, so we're already past the point of even the Berserk situation above, we now need 11250 damage to break even. Now let's look at crit+berserk. We're now looking at 1050 damage done, 3150 damage healed and you now need 15450 damage done to you in 6 seconds to break even. This is impossible in the current game except for one-shot mechanics that you would still die to anyway.
Even if you pretend, and your example is full of terrible healers who don't have you at full before your big hit comes and so the Inner Beast heal gets used fully, and you're playing drunk and forget to ever use Maim or Storm's Eye, you still get 400 damage and a 1200 heal. Which means you need to be reducing a 4000 damage hit... about Titan level. Using just Maim and Storm's Eye, this is a side-grade against Twintania and a nerf against everything else in the game. Factor in Berserk and only extremely bad luck with the largest hit in the game followed by Plummet and an autoattack can compare. If it crits... then there is nothing in the game that causes close to enough damage.
You can now start telling me why I'm wrong.
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12-14-2013, 05:08 AMPaikisThe 2.1 Inner Beast change: He's not the Mesiah! He's a very naughty boy!
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12-14-2013, 05:09 AMPaikis
Reserved because I can.
There is one good thing about the changed Inner Beast that I like. It gives us more effective hitpoints. So a hit that would outright kill us previously may now be survivable. -
12-14-2013, 05:40 AMwhiskeybravo
So you're basically saying we would need to take 8000-15000 damage in 6 seconds to make the new IB as effective as it is now? Wish I had more time to play around with war.
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12-14-2013, 05:56 AMKletian
I think you are discounting when tanking multiple mobs can add up many small hits to larger numbers. I also think saying "If it doesn't prevent as much as it heals, it's not as good" is a fair premise. Like Paikis says, the DR will let you survive something you wouldn't have otherwise because you'd be dead before the old inner beast would heal you. Overhealing is common in the world of MMOs, self healing will likely lead to more overhealing (you need it, they start casting, you instant heal to not need it) while DR would play out (you need it, they start casting, you survive from the DR long enough for the casts to go off.)
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12-14-2013, 06:20 AMmajokaner
hey man- you probably forgot it still heals for 100% of the damage dealt so:
its actually "only" 7000 damage, not pointing everything out, figure for yourself.Quote:
Inner Beast up to 700ish (about a 40% increase) which would give me a 2100 heal. We now have 2100hp that needs to be made up by the 20%DR. This means I have to take 10500
while i think the DR change is okay, looking back at the changes yoshi told us about in that other thread warrior would've been OP with 300% heal staying as it is -
12-14-2013, 06:25 AMExstal
Hm, I can't find anything wrong with this. Damn. You win this time, Paikis.
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12-14-2013, 06:25 AMPaikisThe only time this is going to be possible is when tanking turn 4. I haven't parsed the incoming damage on this turn, but you are still looking at going from full health to dead in 6 seconds before this change will be a net gain. That simple isn't something that is happening for me. Maybe for other people with lower levels of gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kletian
I see this a lot. but here's the thing. You use Inner Beast immediately after a large hit when there is a lot of healing to be done and hopefully before the follow up attack that is going to (maybe) kill you. Because IB is (almost) instant you are able to time it much more accurately than your healers and so your IB should always be the first heal that will keep you alive, then your healers (who have a 2.5s cast time on their heals) top you up (hopefully to full). If there is enough healing landing between your Inner Beast and those 2 heals that you're generating Overhealing, then your healers don't need the healing bonus from Wrath stacks anyway and you haven't lost anything meaningful. You also may have kept yourself alive long enough for their heals to land if that follow up attack was going to kill you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kletian
Nah, it was accounted for here:Quote:
Originally Posted by majokaner
If we're going to take worst-case scenario for one Inner Beast, we should use worst case scenarios for the other. Yes, you will sometimes get some healing out of the new Inner Beast, but more often than not, you're going to be at full health with a Stoneskin or Adloquium before the big telegraphed easily predictable attack comes in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
I'd actually like nothing better than for someone to come along and tell me I'm wrong. I don't like changes that make my class weaker. While the rest of the changes are pretty good, this change in particular I'm really not happy with. I don't consider this to be a win for me. It's a loss and I'd love someone to come and show me that I'm wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exstal
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12-14-2013, 06:29 AMLeironRaid only increases stats by about 3% though, it shouldn't make a difference of 200 for your inner beast hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
Take a pic, just get 7 people together so you cang et the stats you need. -
12-14-2013, 06:33 AMPaikisIt shouldn't, and it may be that I'm remembering wrong... which is why I've used 500/1500 as the numbers for this thread. The bigger the actual hit is, the worse this change is for Inner Beast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
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12-14-2013, 06:39 AMLeironHmm.. I think i get around 20 or so strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
should be about 75 IB damage increase. Ill check it later and give you th enumbers. -
12-14-2013, 07:03 AMGreatScott
You're forgetting one huge aspect of the Inner Beast buff.
It no longer consumes the heal bonus from wrath. -
12-14-2013, 07:05 AMKitruI can. He's using unrealistically high IB heal numbers and wrong information for everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exstal
I'm wielding Bravura +1 with a majority of my gear i90 (I just have gloves, helm, earrings, and 1 ring to go) and my Inner Beast heals me for 1.3k without Berserk/crit. He's talking about getting healed for 2.1k in a full group *without* crit or Berserk and is saying that 1.5k is "average" (I kind of have to laugh that the average he claims to get in raid is 40% higher than what he's getting when he "testing" on a dummy; that right there should tell you that something is wrong). My BB with Maim, Storm's Eye, Unchained, crit, *and* Berserk hits for ~850. Get rid of Berserk and the crit (Inner Beast ignores Defiance so we leave the Unchained numbers) and you get a 280 potency attack hitting for 404, which, when you buff that up to 300 potency, equates to a 433 hit, or 1.3k heal without either of those. He's inflating the heal on IB; based upon my numbers/experiences, he's inflating it by about 15%.
Now, on to the rest of everything.
He claims that big hits always come with a wind up so that the 100% heal on new IB will be wasted. Except that the wind up on most of them is less than a GCD and they always drop 1-2 auto-attacks on you right before. On Titan, who is pretty much the weakest of the burst damage dealers, hits for roughly 2.1k before Mountain Buster (600 auto-attack, 1500 Rock Buster). Caduceus 3-4 stack hits for ~2k before Tail Swipe. Twintania does the same. Pretty much *every* incidence of burst damage is prefaced by a big enough hit that, if you don't get a heal during the wind up (or an absorb shield), you're going to go down. So, unless you get lucky and dodge those attacks, you're going to get the full value of that 100% heal that's staying on there.
As to the assumption that only "several" fights hit you for 5k in 6 seconds, every single fight that *is* a tank check hits you for *harder* than that in 6 seconds. A buffed Dreadnought hits that hard regularly; Caduceus with more than 2 stacks hits harder than that with Tail Swipe; Twintania hits *way* harder than that with Death Sentence alone; Titan hits harder than that with Rock Buster>auto>Mountain Buster and even more when you factor in the Tumult that follows half of the Mountain Busters. 5k is a laughably low estimate of damage taken in a 6 second burst damage time frame is concerned. Most of the time, a 5k hit is the damage from a single attack, which means that, to get only 5k, you have to ignore the other 5 seconds of the boss wailing on you. Pretty much the only fight in Coil where it's a reduction in effectiveness compared to current IB is turn 2, which isn't anything approaching a gear check; it's a mechanics check. The only way that you're not going to see the number of fights where the new Inner Beast is *better* as less than a majority of fights is if you count content that you're laughably overgearing: talking IB in Ifrit HM, Garuda HM, AK, and WP when you've got i90 gear is simply insipid. AK, WP, and Ifrit are all built to be run in entry level 50 gear and Garuda is designed for WP/AK grade gear.
4 fights where new IB is better than old IB might not seem like much, but when you realize that there are only 5 relevant endgame fights, you realize that it's a helluva lot more than he makes it out to be.
His math only makes sense if you trust his fundamentally flawed baseline assumptions and are ignorant of the content. He's inflating the value of Inner Beast by 15% and is laughably ignorant about how much damage tanks actually take in 6 seconds because he only looks at a single attack dealing damage, rather than the 2-3 auto-attacks that are also going to be thrown at you either before or after (remember, you don't have to use it "immediately* before the big hit with the remaining time only working on followup damage; on Titan, you could use it while Titan is dropping Landslide because Rock Buster, the auto-attack, and Mountain Buster are all going to land within 6 seconds of Landslide and that's well in excess of the amount of damage needed to make new IB better).
His math might be right, but the numbers are wrong enough that his conclusions are painfully wrong. -
12-14-2013, 07:07 AMaxemtitanium
Inner Beast healing can overheal and be wasted. 20% DR cannot. /thread
Also, new Inner Beast gives constant 20% bonus healing compared to 15% at 5 stacks of Wrath only. New IB > old IB. -
12-14-2013, 07:16 AMmythicroseEither you or Gamemako had a very similar argument against this thread's originator about the new inner beast in that 48+ page thread if I remember correctly. Gamemako even made an analysis thread of the new change with graphs showing the new inner beast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Edit : Noticed you and Paikis arguing virtually the same thing in yet another (current) thread. -
12-14-2013, 07:23 AMPuresinTHIS right here, ladies and gentlemen.Quote:
Originally Posted by axemtitanium
Sure, in MANY situations, I've been down to sub 1k hp and hit berserk and IB and healed for 3k+, but as that was happening, I also got hit by 2 lustrates and a Cure2. If I never used IB, I would have been healed to full. I used IB, lost my 15% healing buff, got healed to full anyway, and wasted that 3k heal.
What I've learned from playing war all this time is this: You are a tank not a healer; TRUST your healers to do their job. Fact of the matter is this, healers are not going to wat and see you to heal yourself if you dip low. They will react because it is their job to heal.
Also, my "average" IB heals me for 1300-1500 (non-crit, maim, no berserker, maybe slashing buff). I am baffled as to how people average 3k+ IBs. -
12-14-2013, 07:54 AMVortok
Current IB only lets you heal up after you already survived the big hit for which WAR doesn't currently have a bunch of options that aren't a party member doing something they could also do for a PLD - Foresight might be in the top 5 options, which is laughable (getting a little help in the patch in this department, though). Your healers can generally ensure you live after you survive after the big hit if they're at all competent. Which just makes the ability look shiny but rarely actually has any impact (to be fair, sometimes it does make a difference). Especially because there's often a lot of low damage after that burst making it pretty easy for healers to top you off again before the next burst (most cases). IB basically tries to do the same thing as your healers, who's entire purpose is to output green numbers - they're much better equipped for that task and on hard content will probably be spam healing (aka overhealing, aka making the IB heal even less relevant).
You didn't touch on how future proof IB is (because nobody but the devs knows how future content will look - particularly how the tanking situation will look in 24 mans if we don't get the "3 groups that split up a lot" that CT will apparently have) and instead only looked at content we have available right now. A little short sighted, if I can be blunt.
If we get a fight in the future that's based around one MT + ~6 healers in the party, you can bet the boss is going to be hitting like a truck at all times. The heal of IB in that situation (if it comes up - future content speculation and all that) will be far less relevant. The more healers assigned to a tank, the less useful a tank's self healing will be and vice versa.
You also seem to be comparing how much your personal IB heals for compared to the damage output of content you severely outgear. It would be more fair to compare how much both versions of IB would do for someone that's at the gear level of a fight rather than the gear of a tank that vastly outgears it. If we take Titan as an example, full DL (hop ring) + Vit allocation puts a WAR close to/over 7k depending on weapon. That's already overgeared for Titan HM, though. I've had 6k WARs (or slightly under) that I've healed on Titan. There's just less margin for error, like any case of being at gear level vs being overgeared. If you were to find some numbers for that, then while you're at it you could also determine how close to max health a WAR has to be for each version of IB to not instantly faceplant when the attack hits (aka, which version is more forgiving).
And the only major/common complaint I'm seeing is based on the heal going from 300 to 100%. They could easily tweak it and put it at 150% or some other number that makes sense based upon further analysis/data/whatnot (like considering it being used before instead of after, thus more likely to overheal, etc.) while still making it a lot more future proof than the current version. It's obviously meant to be a sidegrade from the current version, so if they feel it underperforms they can easily make a small adjustment like to the heal%. Campaign for that. Self heal is of more use on smaller content (where the incoming damage is low enough for the 20% to not be as useful) while the % DR will scale with high damage output content (where the heal is less relevant) making IB more useful everywhere. -
12-14-2013, 07:57 AMDhexYeah it's getting as tired as... STR is best! ...and DEX is best! Spend you Wrath this way! No spend it that way!Quote:
Originally Posted by mythicrose
Honestly I feel like Paikis and other people in this forum need to realize play-style and stat builds don't matter to your role... they matter to the healer. They're the ones baby sitting you, and covering your ass regardless of what you're doing. So go play WHM with a WAR, or ask your Healer to tell you which method is working better for them next time you test anything rather that fluffing your ego and assuming your method is the best method. Synergy with the other Jobs is what matters. -
12-14-2013, 08:00 AMPaikisI really wish you people (and you specifically) would stop trying to tell me what I can and cannot do. Just like last time you said I couldn't do something and that it was impossible, here's proof. No buffs, no party, 502/1506 Inner Beast. You can clearly see Maim and Storm's Eye and no other buffs, as well as the gear and stats I used to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Just because YOU cannot do something does not mean it cannot be done.
No, I'm not. See above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
I question whether you've actually done any of the fights you're talking about. I regularly tank Caduceus with 2 stacks and he simply does not hit that hard. I don't even bother using cooldowns until 4 stacks on the split, and on our first kill I tanked him until 7 stacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Are you perhaps trying to tank BC with Hoplite armour? Are you doing it as a Marauder instead and using Blood for Blood, because he just doesn't hit that hard.
Who is talking about those fights? Certainly not me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
It's almost like Kitru didn't even read the first paragraph of the thread where I state that I use Gryphonskin. There was no eye-ball it math in this thread as you suggested. I have only used numbers that I have a screenshot to back up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vortok
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12-14-2013, 08:10 AMVortokIt's well known that Paikis is a huge advocate of Gryphonskin. Your lodestone has you wearing different accessories, though no idea if you swap back and forth. The extra STR could explain the slight difference in his 'average' amount, though it still appears there was a lot of 'eyeball it' math going around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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12-14-2013, 08:29 AMHanabira
Still missing the fact about overcures. very rarely have i done a large IB cure that didnt mostly waste a healers large cures. even in the biggest near death moments, before i get the buffs up to get a strong cure, ive already been bene'd. IB isnt worth much other than padding to ease the frequency of cures a healer has to throw out in low to moderate pressure moments. I would prefer the damage resistance and the smaller cure as a method of doing that than a bigger self cure that will probably get 2/3 of it overcured anyway.
Plus, we shouldnt by basing the design of a skill around stats that a minority of players will have. to make the use of IB he does, he has to have 5 of the highest grade accessories, HQd with 4 or 5 high end materia in it. you have to go WAY out of your way for that. -
12-14-2013, 08:31 AMLeironYou really should stop making this statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
Anyone can replicate your results provided they have the exact same gear.
So its clear that Kitru is considering a different accessory kit from you. -
12-14-2013, 08:34 AMExstalYou've never known fear in a video game until you've had to do this right here.Quote:
I've had 6k WARs (or slightly under) that I've healed on Titan.
I'll try it with less STR. But without Storm's Eye debuff (because that can't be up reliably).Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
http://i.imgur.com/XnmvL6B.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/n0HBron.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VonCDjk.jpg -
12-14-2013, 08:43 AMPaikisIf anyone can do it (and they can) then why am I always met with incredulity and charges of fabricating numbers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
There's a screenshot that's been linked thrice now in this thread showing that I've done it. In case you can't make it out, my gear is as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Exstal
Warrior's Burgeonet (helm)
Warrior's Cuirass
Warrior's Gauntlets
Hero's Belt of Fending
Heavy Allagan Cuisses (legs)
Warrior's Jackboots
Full Gryphonskin with these melds:
Neck: Vit IV, Crit III, Parry III, Parry III, Vit II
Ears: Vit IV, Crit III, Parry III, Parry III, Vit II
Wrists: Parry III, Parry III, Vit III, Vit III, Vit II
Ring1: Vit IV, DET IV, Parry III, Parry III, Vit II
Ring2: Parry III, Parry III, Vit III, Vit III, Vit II -
12-14-2013, 08:49 AMLeiron
... Paikis switch out those legs.
Oh god.. -
12-14-2013, 08:52 AMKitruI'll tell you what is mathematically possible and probable. There is, quite literally, *no way* that you're getting 2.1k from an Inner Beast with only Maim and Storm's Eye. You can say it all you want, but it's mathematically impossible for you to do it. The very fact that you think it's even "plausible* means that none of your numbers can be trusted because you, quite obviously, have a monumentally skewed (and quite possibly inaccurate) perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
I didn't say 2 stack Caduceus. I said Cad with more than 2 stacks. When he gets to 3+ stacks, he starts hitting on the level I'm talking about, which is exactly the kind of situation with high damage that gets talked about.Quote:
I question whether you've actually done any of the fights you're talking about. I regularly tank Caduceus with 2 stacks and he simply does not hit that hard.
Which means that you were kiting him so that you weren't getting hit (which means nothing, because I've seen a BRD "tank" Cad up to 8 stacks by kiting). At 7 stacks, a single Tail Swipe is going to kill you even from full.Quote:
on our first kill I tanked him until 7 stacks.
You *must* be talking about those fights because you're acting as if the situations in which the amount of damage that you need to take in order to make the new IB better are in the minority. The only way that *that* is happening is if you're bringing up those fights. If you only look at coil, 75% of the boss fights will hit you hard enough that IB is better in its new incarnation.Quote:
Who is talking about those fights? Certainly not me.
I did. The fact that you somehow claimed that the average difference performance of IB in raid was 40% higher than you tested immediately made me doubt any number that you provide because there is *no* way you're spontaneously doing 40% more damage just because you're in a group.Quote:
It's almost like Kitru didn't even read the first paragraph of the thread where I state that I use Gryphonskin.
The issue is, as previously mentioned, that you're using an unrealistic gear loadout that is specifically *designed* to maximize damage and the performance of the current Inner Beast at the cost of traditional tank stats. For anyone *not* using overmelded Gryphonskin (i.e. people using tank gear that the devs actually expected to be tank gear), the new Inner Beast is going to be a huge upgrade. For anyone using the overmelded Gryphonskin, they're still going to get better performance out of the new Inner Beast (because you take a lot more damage in those 6 second windows than you're acting like), but not as much. -
12-14-2013, 08:52 AMPaikisYeah, they're hideous. But I don't have the tomes for myth legs and this is one of the only pieces of tank loot we've had drop. I might spend my next 825 on the Warrior's Breeches... but they are exactly the same STATS and 3 weeks of tomes for a cosmetic change seems... I think I'd rather have a second +1 relic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
Please note the screenshot of me hitting 1500 linked a few times in this thread. Please also note the bold and underlined part of the original post where I tell you that I ONLY used the number in that screenshot because I couldn't be sure I wasn't remembering a crit/berserk usage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
No, I wasn't kiting, I was taking Hood Swing to the face and what the hell kind of tank is going to get hit by a tail swipe? You're tanking, why are you behind the mob? Yes, my healers are good and mad props to them, but it takes a combined effort to tank anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
I didn't specifically state I was only considering Coil fights, but I was. Twintania and possibly turn 4 are the only palces you're going to find damage that high. If Caduceus is getting enough stacks to where he is hitting that hard, then your DPS are terrible or you need to start feeding him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
This gear loadout is what I have used on our first kill of everything in coil. Everything. It is not unrealistic, it just isn't "stack as many HP as you can and ignore everything else." It isn't what you do, but it is completely viable and not unrealistic at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
I would suggest that they (and you) try it before they give up and label it as 'bad'. It really is better for any fight where you aren't going to be one-shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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12-14-2013, 08:55 AMGiantbaneNice UGGsQuote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
/snicker -
12-14-2013, 08:59 AMEinheri
The 2.1 changes to IB being a "nerf" should not be news to any one. Here is my post from when yoshi-p revealed the change:
Currently inner beast heals for about 1500 on average (end game tanks) with the ability to crit and take advantage damage buffs the high end heals can be huge. Don't forget infuriate can allow for back to back IB heals. So you can easily mitigate for over 3k damage currently(not consistently).
The new IB provides 20% reduction over 6 secs. So a boss doing 1k dps, say a table flip and two reg attacks for 6k you will mitigate only 1200 damage. Add in the reduced heal for about 500 and you get 1700 damage mitigated. What makes this "buff" great is that is scales with content the warriors big problem currently vs a paladin. So if the boss does 1500dps your mitigation would be around 2300.
The new IB scales with content. Its why warriors are currently considered inferior to paladins after a point in content. Just think of 2.2 with turn 6 of BC you will maybe hit IB for 600 instead of 500 a 20% increase in your output. The boss may however be doing 2k dps. So old IB will be good for 1800 average and the new will be worth 3000 in mitigation. -
12-14-2013, 09:07 AMDhexI agree with everything you've said - basically it's fixing a core mechanic problem with Warrior - a mechanic problem less than obvious to some players who have overcome the problem by creating il70 accessories with better itemization than the standard Fending accessories; and have completed il90 weapons & gear sets - they insist Inner Beast is better "the way it is" without considering people still in lower tier gear or that future content will be more difficult/challenging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einheri
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12-14-2013, 09:16 AMLeironIve yet to get anything from Coil during the month I was running it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
We'd go to t4 and I wouldnt find anything
No Ring, no shield, no chest piece, no legs, nothing at all
=( -
12-14-2013, 09:38 AMXenobius
Paikis is arguing over spherical cows in vacuum. Again.
1) All that "old IB potentially mitigates more damage with it's heal than the new one" works with one condition: There will be few to none incoming heals from the moment you take your big hit till the moment you pop IB. Which is the case... Once in a blue moon or what? Because in every other case, when the tank is expected to get hit hard, healers make sure he's as close to being topped off as it gets. HoTs, heal pre-casting, you name it. And in this case, most of that old IB will become overhealing and get wasted.
2) Old IB has near-zero synergy with shields. Stone skin, Adloqium/Succor - they work wonders on Warrior due to high HP pool and that healing bonus. New IB will work nicely with all that, old one just won't. Again, "if" we're using direct heal spamming only (another cow in vacuum) old one looks not as bad. Switch to real in-game situations and there you go - that "nerf" doesn't look so nerfy now. -
12-14-2013, 10:05 AMNalou
Why don't you just pop the 2.1 IB when it's up ?
Defensive skills are supposed to be Vengeance (straight damage reduction), Thrill of Battle (damage is dealt to a virtual Hp pool) and Holmgang (can't die !!!).
These 3 skills can be up almost every 30 seconds.
Maybe for this one rare boss (like the hardest boss of the game) you can save your Inner Beast for the few times the others 3 aren't up, and spam it the rest of the time. -
12-14-2013, 02:25 PMVmageyou ignored the best part about the new inner beastQuote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
in 2.1, it won't reduce your healing received for the next 20-30 seconds... more than enough to make it better than the current iteration.
it could have the healing component completely removed and it'd still be better than what we've got now :s -
12-14-2013, 04:44 PMValholThe Neverending Story.What a long, untrue, silly post about make believe numbers. Because.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
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12-14-2013, 05:15 PMTeleniel
Old Inner Beast: 300% heal. you have to not be at full, and not cause a cure to be over-curing for this to be useful. This also removes your wraith stacks so cures hit for less potency.
New Inner Beast: 100% heal, 20% dmg reduction for 6 seconds. Good for telegraphed attacks, and group pulls. This scales with incoming damage rather than being stat dependent.
The utility changes
Old: "I just took a shitload let's make me harder to heal, for a medium self heal!", let's be honest with the healing reduction you're saving about one cure I / Physic spell here... two at the most and likely not saving your life.
New: "20% DR for 6 seconds, and if I'm not topped off a small self heal!", sure it isn't going to net you back as much HP, but with the move of healing bonus to defiance (albiet reduced), this is a worthwhile use of your wraith stacks and will net about 2-3% less damage taken over time (with rough account for uptime 1/3 = 7%~ max average reduction and you may be holding charges for telegraphed attacks or not able to use the GCD right away)
I'm ok with this change, it's not a boost to the ability, but it gives the ability more utility in a broader range of content. -
12-14-2013, 07:43 PMMegidoFor one, there will eventually be harder hitting content than TT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exstal
Second, why is he wearing griphonskin while main tanking TT?
Third, the self healing isnt that great, it comes down to maybe a single heal from a healer. And even then it relies on Berserk or a Crit. DR will always be useful.
Topping yourself off or healing some back after a big burst attack is simply not as advantageous as simply reducing its damage. Have fun totally topping yourself off that one time while TT one shots you with a queued cleave and death sentence.
Dont forget the 5% increased healing recieved we will also be getting. Im ok with losing a little healing on IB for that. -
12-16-2013, 04:55 PMDlewis1986THE BOOTS WITH THE FUUUUURRRRRQuote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
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12-16-2013, 05:34 PMTaneshimaPopura
Lets make this really simple... at 8,000 HP in defiance precasting IB already makes you have 9,600HP for the duration which already beats the old model. I'm also assuming I totally wasted the 100% DMG heal and ignoring potential heal received during the duration of 6 seconds. (A simple napkin math)
If you want a Life drain tank, it always has to be tied to 2 things. Your Max HP% or % of damage received (Which is pretty much a weaker version of mitigation). And why SE cannot implement this is due to the fact that like the coming 2.1 patch balance needs to be done between PvE and PvP.
Not to mention the difference is only 1500-500=1000 heal, which is really... worth 1 Physick/Cure 1. 850*1.2= 1,020