monk optimisation

ok,so im currently in like,half ilvl90 gear other half in DL with relic+1

since next patch food buff wont be remouved on death anymore i was wondering what would be the best food for monk.i see 2 option.crit+vit+accuracy or determination+vit+crit.second one seem better for overall dmg buff but since it dont have any accuracy and using most of the allagan set will make you lack of accuracy,i guess first one will actualy be better.what you think?

i also want some opinion about rotation.i did many test last night on dummy and without any food/party buff/potion i seem to parse only about 300 dps with ffxiv-app.there was 2 other monk that showed up and they had similar gear,mabey a bit better,and i asked them if i could parse them and they was also doing about 300 dps.on the forum i keep seeing some monk saying they do 350-400 dps on dummy so im wondering wth is wrong...they are lying?im doing something wrong?

i really want to master that class and get the maximum out of it so if some monk who parse higther then 300 can share their experience with me,i would really appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by Zakard

*SNIP*

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Better gear -> higher dps

I don't think 300 is terrible if you're still in 1/2 Darklight, but there's probably some room for improvement.

General rules:
Always maintain buffs: GLx3, Dragon Kick, Twin Snake
Always maintain dots: Touch of Death, Demolish, Fracture (drop fracture if you have TP issues)
If you can use Bootshine and True Strike without losing any buffs or dots, do it.

well im not actualy half dl....i have 7part ilvl90 and 4 DL.
for the rotation i offcourse keep my buff/debuff up and dot.
for bootshine and true strike....testing on dummy it seem worste then flank only.a guildmate have the same result as me,flank only end up better (im at 499 skillspeed so twinsnake isnt a probleme)

i also tried to parse using no dot and.....it seem to parse higther....i dont know if ffxiv-app really have probleme with DOT atm but those test doesnt seem right.

so far the rotation im testing look like that:
TOD/perfect balance/twinsnake/demo/snapx2/dragon kickx2/BfB and twinsnake/infernal release with demo/fracture/TOD/steel peack/dragon/twin/snap+howling fist etc.

before that i was using perfect balance for burst dmg purpose.reaching GL3,BfB+infernal release up,followed by my 3 dot and then perfect balance with snap x5.after few test it seem opening with perfect balance is better...

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Originally Posted by Mitski

Better gear -> higher dps

I don't think 300 is terrible if you're still in 1/2 Darklight, but there's probably some room for improvement.

General rules:
Always maintain buffs: GLx3, Dragon Kick, Twin Snake
Always maintain dots: Touch of Death, Demolish, Fracture (drop fracture if you have TP issues)
If you can use Bootshine and True Strike without losing any buffs or dots, do it.

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i was under the impression you only put up dots when buffs are up otherwise you dont bother.

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Originally Posted by Zakard

*SNIP*

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Mixed rotation is mathematically better, and my parses seem to agree. I use Log Rep 2.0 instead of ffxiv-app; maybe that's the difference?

Edit: Mixed rotation with True Strike also saves you TP.

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Originally Posted by Lyndoggy_Dog

i was under the impression you only put up dots when buffs are up otherwise you dont bother.

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The dots are our highest potency abilities.

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Originally Posted by Lyndoggy_Dog

i was under the impression you only put up dots when buffs are up otherwise you dont bother.

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How are you defining buffs? If you just mean GL3, then yes that's the general rule. You don't apply Fracture or Touch of Death until GL3, and only use Demolish if it's the first cycle and you're not building GL3 with PB.

If you mean you don't use dots unless you have IR or BfB up, that's not true. As Mitski said, they are our highest potency attacks. They are all 200+ potency attacks for a class that has none otherwise. The only comparable potency attack we have access to otherwise is Mercy Stroke.
So yea, they're very strong.

Parsers are junk in this game atm. Two people running the exact same program will get wildly different numbers. Dots are the most powerful attacks we have and they can't be tracked properly. And yes people lie a lot about their dps or they spike their damage up and pretend that is how my they do on average.

Food = Deviled eggs in not ACC cap and Buttons if you are. They should be HQ.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Parsers are junk in this game atm. Two people running the exact same program will get wildly different numbers. Dots are the most powerful attacks we have and they can't be tracked properly. And yes people lie a lot about their dps or they spike their damage up and pretend that is how my they do on average.

Food = Deviled eggs in not ACC cap and Buttons if you are. They should be HQ.

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ok thanks a lot.i usualy dont rely to much on dps since in grp if someone cast a buff the dps get fucked up.me and my guildmate always rely on overall dmg done and so far i seem to be often at the top.there a full ilvl90 monk in my premade and he also use ffxiv-app but there is something pretty weird about the parser.....on mine i usualy out dmg him but on is parser,the data is inversed,im doing lower and he do higther.he said he was using a older version of it so might be a bug but still.....feel kind of strange to out dps him (not always) since he is more geared and he seem to know what he is doing also.that why im not sure if its not mine that is buged.....

overall i seem to do quit fine in overall dmg done compared to other class but when i tried my DPS on dummy last night i was a bit desapointed about it....parser fault i hope lol

Maybe a silly question, but why not get dots going while you are building up GL3 stacks?

If I am not using PB to build my GL3 I tend to open with them because by the time I have GL3 up they need to be reapplied anyway.
Is there some mechanic about them I am missing which makes it absolutely necesarry to only apply them when I have GL3 up?

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Originally Posted by Shirai

Maybe a silly question, but why not get dots going while you are building up GL3 stacks?
<nip> only apply them when I have GL3 up?

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Dots have a high cost. If you know you will not miss technique points at the end of the fight (like every fight when you have downtime : Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, ADS), you can use fracture at the beginning of the fight. If you know you will get starved before the end of the fight(like caducee), your points should be spared, and used only when you have GL3 running.
Touch of death is a little different. The 30s duration is way longer than the time you need to build up your GL3. You should use it at the beginning of a fight only to be sure that damages will not tick while the boss is outside of the map (primal), or if the mob die too soon (coil 4 knights)

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Originally Posted by Shirai

Maybe a silly question, but why not get dots going while you are building up GL3 stacks?

If I am not using PB to build my GL3 I tend to open with them because by the time I have GL3 up they need to be reapplied anyway.
Is there some mechanic about them I am missing which makes it absolutely necesarry to only apply them when I have GL3 up?

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To add a little to what Wahou said - yes, ToD's 30 second duration is too long. It will be up for more than 10 seconds after you get to GL3.

The most important reason is that Fracture and Touch of Death do not move your cycle forward. This means, spending 4-5 seconds applying them is that much longer you will take to get up to GL3. Don't forget that our auto-attacks, which holds the majority of our damage, are affected by GL3 in both damage and frequency.
Coupled with the fact that they don't really do that much without GL at all, this is why you shouldn't start with them.
Hitting GL3 is our absolute highest priority (other than like...living).

As I said in my earlier post, the major exception to this is Demolish which is in the stance cycle. If you use it in the first cycle, it's more damage than you would've done with Snap punch. So in this case, it is a straight dps gain and gives you a GL stack. However, using it on the second or third cycle is not recommended as you will delay applying a GL3 demolish more than you should have to.
So ideally, you can use Demolish on the first cycle and when you reapply, you should have GL3 already.

Alright, very clear! Thanks!

What they said... that is exactly why I don't use DoTs early on (except Demolish).

I guess I have been doing it all wrong.

On the start of boss fight I'd start with:

IR/BFB>PB>Dk>Spx3{at this stage I have GL3 up}Dm>Frac>ToD>Hf>Steal Peak( all moves under IR AND BFB). That's how I start, plz rate. So from my understanding at above post, that it will b better to IR BFB DK SNAKE DM(gl1) instead of building gl3 up first at start?

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Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

I guess I have been doing it all wrong.

On the start of boss fight I'd start with:

IR/BFB>PB>Dk>Spx3{at this stage I have GL3 up}Dm>Frac>ToD>Hf>Steal Peak( all moves under IR AND BFB). That's how I start, plz rate. So from my understanding at above post, that it will b better to IR BFB DK SNAKE DM(gl1) instead of building gl3 up first at start?

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Your starting is fine, actually. Though HF and Steel Peak should be spaced out since they are off the GCD and should be placed between other abilities.
Same for IR/BfB actually.

My preferred starting PB starting:
PB --> Twin > SP x3 > DK > DK (IR) > Twin (BfB) > Demolish (Steel Peak) > Touch of Death (Howling Fist) > Fracture
Dragon Kick > Twin > Snap Punch

The brackets mean I used those abilities during the GCD of the one before.
This rotation also has Twin snakes buff up for the dots and only loses the Dragon kick debuff during the dots which don't benefit from it anyway.

Your rotation will have a cycle where you don't have Dragon Kick because after your rotation above, you will dragon kick again right? But you will not be in a stance because directly after PB, you will have have no stance.
It's good to always try to keep up your buffs and to have them all running together too. Our damage is multiplicative after all.

I guess I have been doing it all wrong.

On the start of boss fight I'd start with:

IR/BFB>PB>Dk>Spx3{at this stage I have GL3 up}Dm>Frac>ToD>Hf>Steal Peak( all moves under IR AND BFB). That's how I start, plz rate. So from my understanding at above post, that it will b better to IR BFB DK SNAKE DM(gl1) instead of building gl3 up first at start?

What's an ideal way to start boss?

For perfect balance I read different opinions on the use of it. It can be used at the beginning to stack up to GLIII, or use it once u have GLIII to spam snap punch. If possible can someone clarify which one is better option to do?

Personally I hold PB for high damage spike requirements. It probably works out higher to use PB at start on a dummy, but in real boss fights where you are fighting multiple targets and losing contact with boss etc, I found that you really only get to use that start mechanic maybe once and then you can end up losing all your stacks 5 secs later anyway because you have to dodge an aoe or fight mechanics. Therefore I find it more useful to save it for when you have a boost CD ready and know you'll have ample time to spam it on the mob. Garuda, Titan, ADS are all examples of this kind of fight.

I also use IR and BfB separately to boost damage through my entire rotation. I used to stack them but I think its more efficient this way. I haven't had an opportunity to test with a parser, but mathematically it should provide more advantage as monk has a more accumulative damage effect.

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Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

What's an ideal way to start boss?

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Did you just ignore me? D=
I answered you directly above!

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Originally Posted by AegisXI

For perfect balance I read different opinions on the use of it. It can be used at the beginning to stack up to GLIII, or use it once u have GLIII to spam snap punch. If possible can someone clarify which one is better option to do?

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It's a good question. I can't give you a straight answer myself.
I used to really favor using it as a dps CD but I'm on the other side of the fence now.
The reason? Spamming Snap Punch too much will wipe your buffs (other than GL3 of course) and you may end up doing less dps in the long run because of it.
Using Dragon Kick after PB will not give you the debuff (or refresh it if it's already on) and Twin's buff will run out if you don't include it in your PB rotation.
Twin - SP x3 - DK can work as a dps cd AND keep all your buffs running, but you compromised two GCDs for the buff and it looks less attractive as a CD.

On the other hand, using it as a starter saves at least 15 seconds of less than GL3 dps. That's pretty significant and I believe it's a bigger dps increase than using PB for burst.

However, it's not always better. The primal fights are a great example of where using PB to build GL3 seems pointless since they wipe your stacks fairly frequently when they jump away. In these cases, I believe using it as a burst CD is, in fact, better.

This is my burst rotation:
Dragon Kick (IR) ---> Twin Snakes (Blood for Blood) ---> Demolish (Steel Peak) ---> Touch of Death (Howling Fist) ---> Fracture
Dragon Kick ---> Twin Snakes ---> SP (Perfect Balance) ---> SP --> Twin --> SP --> Dragon Kick --> SP

Good for Titan's heart or Garuda after she summons the twins or whenever for Ifrit.

PB is like the most complicated thing the MNK has to optimize. People really undervalue the buffs because they are automatic in the standard rotation.
For PB, you have to be aware of it though. A Snap Punch without either DK or Twin's buff does around the damage of Twin Snakes while without just Dragon kick, it's around Dragon Kick's damage.
Not to mention, after a SP x 5 PB rotation, you will not have DK for a full cycle afterwards and you won't have Twin's buff for the DK or next Twin.

So those are things to keep in mind when deciding how to use it.

Srt about that ally my I replay back to my message but it was sent late.

That's something I need to try. But here's the thing. From what I read here before that using DK after PB applies te buff and rebuff. So why use it last on the PB phase? I like the idea of spreading howling and peak. I can see the use of IR and BfB separately since IR is useless with boot shine .

PB can also be saved for a burst AOE situation, (phase 4 of turn 4 is the only time for this that i can think of)

so, pop PB after twin snake and Rockbreaker x 5

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Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

From what I read here before that using DK after PB applies te buff and rebuff. So why use it last on the PB phase?

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I'm 100% sure what you read about DK applying the buff after PB is wrong. Can't see to find where that was said either.
After PB, you are stance-less and your DK doesn't apply the debuff. This is easy to test.
So yea, that's why.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I'm 100% sure what you read about DK applying the buff after PB is wrong. Can't see to find where that was said either.
After PB, you are stance-less and your DK doesn't apply the debuff. This is easy to test.
So yea, that's why.

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Are you sure it does not work? I will have to go test because Arm of the destroyer work in PB and you're stance-less.

I just tested it PB let all debuff and buff work in all forms so if you PB do ts,snap,snap.DK.DM

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Originally Posted by raikage

I just tested it PB let all debuff and buff work in all forms so if you PB do ts,snap,snap.DK.DM

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I said AFTER PB though.

EDIT:
To be clear, in PB you basically are in all the stances. *After* PB you have no stance (just like the start of any fight).
We were discussing the Dragon Kick directly after PB fades, which does not refresh the debuff.
This means that you need to include Dragon Kick in your PB rotation or you will lose the debuff before you can refresh it again.

yes buff/debuff apply when you use PB but when the PB end,the next attack wont have any stances that why most use PB-twin-demo-snapx2-dragon kick (pb go down) and dragon kick again to start the stance again.

so yea there many way to use PB but there probably no *optimal one*.it depend of the situation.a long fight without to much risk to lose GL,using it as opener.primal fight with hight risk to lose GL,using it as burst.need hight dmg aoe like in T4,PB with spamming rock breaker.

opener:TOD-PB-twinsnake-demo-snapx2-dragon kickx2

burst:after reaching GL3,dragon (BfB) -twin (ir)-demo-fract-TOD-PB-spamming snap but this will make you lose twinsnake and DK so before PB end you could refreash both.

aoe burst:dragon kick-twin-bfb+IR-rockbreaker-howling fist-PB-spamm rock breaker.

that the way i see it.my burst rotation might need some work since i was using snapx5 before but yea....losing my twinsnake and DK so....need to test few thing,something like snapx3-twin-dk mabey

yeah i didnt mean to say after PB wears off. The discussion s here n the lodestone i just dont remember where to b exact, but ive been fallowing a lot of topic discussion about the mnk job and one ofr the particular discussion is the the talk about DK buff/debuff after PB(not after like wearing off, i mean when u press that PB botton, i guess i just stop saying after.)that u keep the buff. Iget the idea of doing DK last so that next DK will have the buff and debuff, but why not start PB>DK(buff/debuff will get activated)>SNAKE(buff)>SPx3>DM?

AS far as AOE Burst rotation that have 4+trash i do at the start:

IR/BFB>PB>Spam Rock Breaker>HF>AoD>Snake>RB, if not all dead i just spam AoD>Snake>RB.
On 3 to 4 trash i just do AoD>Snake>RB till its just 2 trash then back to basic DK>SNAKE>SNAP plz rate my AOE burst.