Pulling threat as a whm in Coil

Turn 4, its a mess. Does anyone have good suggestions for keeping your tanks up and your threat down in turn 4? Personally I'm not having to much of a hard time with it, but we have a few white mages in our groups that do, and by that I mean they will stop turn 4 in its tracks because they always rip agro.

Problem is I have tried to describe what I do to keep my own agro down (eye for a eye, stoneskin preload with a divine seal/cure 2 when needed followed by a shroud and then regen and carefully spaced cures, rinse and repeat for dreadnaught drops ((please dont flame me if Im doing it wrong, I havent pulled agro yet)) and they say they are doing "something similar". Does anyone have some sure fire tips to help this poor whm out? Thanks! :cool:

Unless they are overhealing by a significant margin its probably a tank issue.

This was covered in another thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rn-4-WHM-Aggro

There's only so much you can do; healers know what abilities they have to reduce aggro and they know that more potent heals = more aggro. I have a comment in that thread above about what I do; preload stoneskin (although I don't always do this now and still never pull aggro), use eye for an eye (again, I almost never do this anymore), and use Virus to reduce the need to heal. Make sure you (or "your friend") are not using aoe heals in phase 2, and stick to Cure 1 unless absolutely necessary. If you're pulling aggro in any phase other than 2 then you probably have bad tanks unless you have to spam heal.

P1: Stoneskin and cure 1. Right before transition ensure tanks have Stoneskin.

P2: Divine Seal with cure 1, use cure 2 as needed. (Avoid shroud usage, if your tanks are doing their job you should
not need it). Once again transition make sure tanks have SS.

P3: Eye for eye, virus, divine seal, cure 1. cure 2 only when needed. Shroud when dread around 50%. Transition tanks with SS.

P4: Divine seal. Cure 1. Put regen to top off dps.
SS tanks for transition. Run to outer edge of map to left of dread spawn area to avoid agro by proximity.

P5: divine seal and cure1. Cure 2 as needed. Use shroud if needed. Transition with SS.

P6: Rotate divine seal, presence, virus, and eye for eye. Pop shroud at this phase if you havent used in phase 5. Remain at side of arena. Dependent on what strat you are using. Use your judgement with MT with two dreads start popping cool downs immediately. If one pop cool downs on OT to help other healer. Top off dps with regens.

Other Tips:
You can regen at start of each phase and if you get caught with it on ask your tank to pay attention and click off if it's on right before transitions.

In some groups when healers are having troubles with this you can switch your focus tank half way through fight this usually solves any hate issues.

Shroud of Saints is a good way to lower aggro.. =)

But more seriously, it has to do with skill selection and timing. Perhaps the WHMs that are having trouble are laying on Regen or Medica 2 that carries over through a phase change. The incoming mobs with the next phase start with blank threat tables, so a ticking regen or two will make you very popular.

All phases ('cept the last) run for a maximum of 60 seconds. If all targets are killed before the 1min mark, the next phase starts 2 seconds after the last enemy dies. Regen and M2 should stop being cast at the 30 second mark. (Regen runs for about 20s, Medica 2's regen ticks run slightly shorter.. 15s?). If you stop casting Regen at the halfway point in a phase you should be okay when the transition comes.

Modify cast times for your group's DPS of course. (Faster DPS? Stop regenning sooner.)

For me, agro is usually only a problem on phase.....4(?) when the next set of Knights/Rooks and spiders drop. This is when OT is taking all the trash, DPS is spliting up spiders and knights(or whatever they all are) and MT is on DN1 and then 2.

My goal is to time shroud so just shortly after they drop I can shroud and drop my agro. Other than that I almost never have a problem. I don't use Medica I or II until the last phase. That will significantly help with agro. You should get 2 maybe 3 shrouds if timed correctly and decent dps, make sure you have clear healing assignments because nothings' going to pull agro like Healer 1 topping off a tank right before your crit-heal2 drops.

Completely depends on your strategy used for this particular fight, as there seem to be a lot of them floating around. However let's break it down into phases. My group runs with a Paladin, Warrior, White Mage, Scholar, Bard, Black Mage, Summoner, and Dragoon (for reference purposes).

Phase 1: Spiders, easily manageable with threat, you can toss out a Regen on the tanks at the very beginning (once they've established aggro) and don't re-apply it afterward. The reason for this is due to the phase change you don't want a Regen to be up so you are pulling aggro.

Phase 2: Herp Derp Robots, I typically stand between the two spawns when they appear so in case I end up getting aggro for whatever reason the tanks can easily pull it back. Usually doesn't happen too often, but if I have to throw out some big heals I can tend to wrack up the aggro pretty fast.

Phase 3: Now this is just because I'm comfortable doing it, but I will throw a Regen on the 2nd tank right before this phase hits, and stand directly between the spiders and the Dreadnaught that spawns. This usually ends up with me getting aggro on 1 or 2 spiders and them coming straight for me and then being absorbed by the Dreadnought very quickly. When this is done I will stack on the Dreadnoughts backside (we position him in the middle), and use Virus on the Dreadnought at about 25-30% health, and will typically use Shroud at this point when my mana reaches 3-3.5K (I have 4.7K total mana).

Phase 4: Spiders And Rooks. Right as the Dreadnought dies I will toss a Stoneskin on the tank who will be taking all the spiders and 1 Rook by himself. This will gain me initial aggro, but I'm in the middle next to the tank so any aggro I pull he can easily get off me. Our Paladin is the one tanking all the spiders and 1 rook. Once aggro is established I jump out of the middle and continue to heal.

Phase 5: Dreadnought + Herp Derp Robots. Our Warrior ends up picking up the first Dreadnought and tanking it by himself while moving it to the south corner, dps focuses down the 2 herp derp roboots and I will typically stand between the tank and where these robots spawn. Aggro typically isn't an issue past the first 5 seconds of spawning.

Phase 6: Dreadnought, Herp Derp, Spiders, Rook. Now this is where things can get a little hectic, however our tanks are already in their appropriate positions. The reason the Warrior went south is to pick up the Herp Derp Robot that spawns down there and tank it along with the Dreadnought he currently has. Our Paladin is just to the west position where he picks up the single Dreadnought and the other Herp Derp Robot, the spiders are then brought over to the Dread and the Rook is tanked and killed by the DPS instead. Usually after initial aggro from the tanks I will start to pump out big heals. However our Paladin pops his Invuln once he has established aggro on the Dread + 2nd Robot. So our heals are focused on the Warrior until it goes off. After invuln is down the Warrior then pops his cooldowns. During this time I may or may not pop shroud depending on how aggro looks and how much I've healed. Then after the first Dread is dead, DPS focuses on the other robot on the Warrior, and the Warrior then picks up the Robot currently on the Paladin, leaving the Paladin with just the Dreadnought to tank.

Hope this helps, again it completely depends on what your group does mostly for Phases 5 and 6. Some choose to kill the Dreadnought in Phase 5, and then focus down the 2 Robots. And Phase 6 has all sorts of strategies. Good luck!

You will need to shroud on the start of phase 6. That spinrook will not leave you alone if you don't.

The biggest tip I can offer has already been covered, ensure that you don't have regen on when a new phase starts as it's a sure fire way to get agro (I actually use it intentionally on a few people to quickly feed the phase 3 bugs to the first clockwork dreadnaught). Medica 1/2 don't really have a place in T4 so shouldn't come into it. Another technique I can offer up is to weave heals between tanks for phase 2 rather than having a healer pick a tank each.

Beyond that, the posts above have most stuff covered, get reading!

Do you have 2 WHM's?

because if you do then have 1 switch to SCH asap

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

The biggest tip I can offer has already been covered, ensure that you don't have regen on when a new phase starts as it's a sure fire way to get agro (I actually use it intentionally on a few people to quickly feed the phase 3 bugs to the first clockwork dreadnaught). Medica 1/2 don't really have a place in T4 so shouldn't come into it. Another technique I can offer up is to weave heals between tanks for phase 2 rather than having a healer pick a tank each.

Beyond that, the posts above have most stuff covered, get reading!

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I use Medica 2 just as P2 ends for the same reason. Makes all the bugs go zoom towards the Dreadnaught for easy snacking, and the tank can hold hate as long as I'm not stupid and spamming Medica afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

Do you have 2 WHM's?

because if you do then have 1 switch to SCH asap

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This isn't necessary. I first downed T4 with 2 WHM's. In order to avoid pulling hate we developed a system where we essentially alternate our heals on the tanks. So I cast regen on the first tank, then the second. Then I cast cure on the first tank and then the second. That way we are essentially halving our threat output for the tanks to deal with. After a few seconds of this heal weaving, the tanks should have solid enough threat to where you don't have to worry about it anymore.

The only other advice I can give is to just wait a second or two before healing when the things drop. I usually watch the tank assignment and see what moves he has done and adjust my healing accordingly.

So, all tanks, including myself, are arrogant, fragile snowflakes. We all want to be at the center of attention, that's why we flash crowds and wear the prettiest of tiara's to go with our shiny clothes. Telling us we aren't doing it right will invariably result in denials and rage.

Your tanks are doing it wrong.

This isn't a gear thing. First time I cleared turn 4 I was in full hdl + dl accessories. Nothing special. It doesn't matter if you have regen up or medica 2 up or anything else when the phase changes, all that matters is where your tanks are positioned and if they are awful or not.

Telling you that alone isn't hepful, so let me break down exactly what your tanks need to be doing. As a note, a single flash on a target is enough spike hate to defeat agro from any ticking heal over time, so all your tank has to do is get that one flash off.

I will go over how we break up the tasks, our strat has our tank who is the best at doing pick-ups (so mt) doing... all the hard pick ups. A little different than how some groups divide the labor.

Starting Spiders: MT body aggros, gathers, cos & flash spam until empty, regen mana until phase ends (will not need to cast flash again, at most once more if there is a heavy gear disparity between tank and one dps).

As this phase ends, MT moves to the set of Herp Derp Bots that will die first. Stands between where they will be (its about 1/4 of the way onto the light pad and on the right edge of it, in this set up we kill the set that spawns on the left if you are looking into the field from the spawn point). OT does the same for his set (about the same position on other light pad).

As soon as the enemies appear in the agro name plates (before they actually appear) MT casts flash twice, cos, ROH (uncombed) on which ever bot has the weaker dps assigned, full combo on second bot (tab targeting between gcd to put spirits on the bot he hit with just ROH), once combo finishes combo the other bot, back and forth. OT just spams flash or what ever he feels like really. No excuse to loose hate here.

MT's Herp and Derp die: if the group needs it, MT can come stab the second set some, but, may as well just move into position for where the first dread will appear. Needs to stand at about 3/4 max of flash range. Again, as soon as the name plate appears, hit flash and start running directly away from the dread towards where the second set of bots was / are. If healers are tucked against the wall between the two sets (standard set up) the spiders will all charge the healers, and by dragging dread across it will intercept them without a single hit being delivered. MT shield lobs/tomahawks as the dread approaches, once lines appear immediately runs to center and just tanks it.

1st dread going down: OT moves to where healers are and just spams flash as the bugs come in. This is a very trivial phase. As the last few bugs die, OT moves to where second dread will appear, and this is the tricky part and probably where people start pulling agro on pops:

MT needs to go to the center, but off set so he is directly between where the knight and soldier will be, again he wants to be at about 3/4 of flash range away from center towards the outer spawn. As soon as name plate appears, flash, run to outter mob, flash. You see, the herp derp bots hesitate for quite a while before they start moving, so even if a regen tick gets quick hate, plenty of time to flash. Flash 2-3 more times as they move into the MT, then repeat the eearlier process of one uncombed roh/butchers'block and cycle. The OT needs to just be ready and watch for the nameplate of the second dread to pop and immediately hit 1-2 flashes and this will also prevent any movement.

Final Set: once again, MT positions between herp derp center and edge, repeats only this time runs back to center to flash and thus pick up the spider (possible to target it and hit it with a lob/axe. Have a bard or blm pull the other spider and rook to center and it will be picked up by the flashing tank who can then kite until you're ready for them.


Tl,DR: its the tank's fault if agro is ever lost in turn 4. The key is simply to be in position before the mobs spawn rather than reacting to where they will be. This works for PS3 users (like me!) as well. Its the tank's job to keep you safe. If they are failing at that, well its time to break their little hearts and tell them they aren't actually the prettiest girl at the dance.

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

Tl,DR: its the tank's fault if agro is ever lost in turn 4. The key is simply to be in position before the mobs spawn rather than reacting to where they will be. This works for PS3 users (like me!) as well. Its the tank's job to keep you safe. If they are failing at that, well its time to break their little hearts and tell them they aren't actually the prettiest girl at the dance.

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Agree with this whole post for the most part, and with this paragraph in particular! :) (I use a slightly different hate-grab on the Phase 2 spawns - Flash Once, CoS, Fast Blade #1 > SW #2 > Savage Blade #1 > RoH #2 - because with only two mobs to grab it's just as reliable and the Knight's Magic Stoneskin reflects Flash back at you for ~800 damage per cast...)

@ the OP: it definitely sounds like a problem with your Tanks if you're pulling Healhate without overcuring ridiculously.

Honestly, I've found that once you get the mob spawn points down, the tanks should never be losing hate during Phases 1-4 unless the DPS are concentrating on breaking one particular Knight/Soldiers Stoneskin ASAP whilst Healspam is requiring you to split aggro generation on both mobs. Realistically though the Main Tank (The one tanking both the Phase 5 and Phase 6 Dread) shouldn't lose aggro at all, even in phases 5-6.

The Off Tank is the only one with "tricky" hate management (Phases 5 and 6) because trying to get snap aggro on multiple spread-out mobs is very annoying - particularly whenever every time you cast flash on a Knight you get damaged. The start of Phase 6 is really the only part of the fight where the positioning of the rest of the party (not the tanks) can make or break the run... Spiders running to the old Dread, Knight/Soldier AoEing Healers, Spinner rook running wild, etc. before the OT can gather them all up. So we've tended to trend towards using this dance - and I've found that killing the Dread first in Phase 5, then immediately feeding the Phase 6 spiders to the "new" Dread to be by far the safest and most reliable method. In extreme situations (whenever you only just about manage to kill the Phase 5 Dread and not break a Knight/Soldier's Stoneskin before P6) it requires only one Hallowed Ground (Off Tank!) - staggering two HGs (Off Tank -> Main Tank) makes it cake.

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Originally Posted by Vladimus

This isn't necessary. I first downed T4 with 2 WHM's. In order to avoid pulling hate we developed a system where we essentially alternate our heals on the tanks. So I cast regen on the first tank, then the second. Then I cast cure on the first tank and then the second. That way we are essentially halving our threat output for the tanks to deal with. After a few seconds of this heal weaving, the tanks should have solid enough threat to where you don't have to worry about it anymore.

The only other advice I can give is to just wait a second or two before healing when the things drop. I usually watch the tank assignment and see what moves he has done and adjust my healing accordingly.

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Agree with this. Two WHM is fine and doable. I cleared this turn my first time healing with a fellow WHM. We did no swap of tank focus and cleared turn 4 with no hate issues.