Multi-hit Weapons...yes or no?

Now that we know for sure that auto attack will be implemented, multi-hit weapons become a possibility in XIV. Do you endorse these? Say nay? Tell why!

as long as they are not as hard to get as Relic weapons used to be in ffxi... im fine with it, and still they should come with efford.
Would be a nice addition. But it all depends HOW the system is gonna look like in the end. So its hard to say.

Well, they DO have a "Number of attacks" stat that isn't exactly neccesary ingame, or needs to be visible, so maybe.

I say yes, absolutely :).

It adds a whole new value to 'speed' in fighting without relying on classic MMO 'haste', which just increases individual hits over time.

Bring back those old multi hit systems used in FFI and III!

Yes, a million times over. I was actually thinking of starting a topic on this myself.

And like Anty said, make them difficult to obtain, but not relic difficult. Leave that for the ultimate weapons :p

I agree, and have no doubt that there will be multi hit weapons as there is already a mechanic in the game to allow this which is shown on Pugilist weapons

Heeeeeell yeah.

YES! Because multi hit weapons with auto attack is just fun to watch, never got tired of it in XI.

Well, as soon as the damage and TP generated from it is divided by the number of hits (just like PGL attacks...A LNC hits 1 hit of 90, PGL hits 2 of 45 or 3 of 30 with flurry)...in the end i think multi-hit weapons should be only good for a more constant TP gain...not the stupidity it was in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Well, as soon as the damage and TP generated from it is divided by the number of hits (just like PGL attacks...A LNC hits 1 hit of 90, PGL hits 2 of 45 or 3 of 30 with flurry)...in the end i think multi-hit weapons should be only good for a more constant TP gain...not the stupidity it was in FFXI.

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You're kidding, right?

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Well, as soon as the damage and TP generated from it is divided by the number of hits (just like PGL attacks...A LNC hits 1 hit of 90, PGL hits 2 of 45 or 3 of 30 with flurry)...in the end i think multi-hit weapons should be only good for a more constant TP gain...not the stupidity it was in FFXI.

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The fast tp gain was the whole reason multi-hit weapons were so sought after in XI. Plus it was a lot of fun. I loved farming kuftal tunnel with mandau/k club or ridill. My WS's were a bit weaker when offhanding the club because the dmg rating on the offhand was still calculated into the WS formula, but overall my damage output was higher. And again, it was a TON of fun.

Though I'd have to agree with you in a way. XIV will be faster paced than XI. We're already spamming WSs rather quickly with the current system we have now. Who knows how the AA system will work. Perhaps if they implement multi-hit weapons again, we'll use them to get full tp for WS's that use all of our tp and just spam those. So technically it would still work the same way, but we'll only really use them for certain WSs.

Multihit weapons are a developmental headache. The game ends up being more impotent when they have to be accounted for than if they never existed, just as the stat system has to cover players boosting their str to 200 and make str worthless, so would a system have to cover players attacking multiple times or stacking players that can attack multiple times.

Better to just design a good solid system and not try to epeen it up with fad and OMGBBQ features just for the elite and fanservice.

Weapons shouldn't have differing numbers of hits. Materia should offer all weapons that feature.

BIG YES! Very much needed. Thanks for this thread :D

Yes from me.

I agree, and having items like the M.Kris that aren't hard to obtain, nor easy to as well. Relics, I had my share of obtaining multiples of them, and they made me sick to my stomach obtaining each one. Wouldn't want them to be THAT hard.

Well you can't change eq in FF14, and TP gain is already faster, and the TP system is different as well (you don't need 100% tp, you use tp)

Multi hit is fine, and perhaps even strategic depending on how it's balance.

Though as the game is now, introducing more balance problems is a big no-no. You don't want to start singing if you're already juggling and dancing.

I would definitely like to see many "types" of multi-hit weapons implemented for all kinds of different classes/jobs. And I agree, don't make them as difficult to obtain as relics in XI (or Kraken Club, for that matter). I'm thinking more along the lines of obtaining the Mercurial Kris, or the Soboro Sukehiro; if you put in at least moderate time and effort you can obtain one. I am also in favor of an "Ultima Set" that would be much harder to obtain, I mean, this is a game we plan on playing for some years. It's nice to have long term goals.

Only on the condition that they're actually balanced and not instant musts for anyone dual wielding. Otherwise, no.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Only on the condition that they're actually balanced and not instant musts for anyone dual wielding. Otherwise, no.

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This would be a primary point. If they reach to a point of adding multi-hit weapons, they MUST be primary weapon only, not working off-hand.

Multi-hit weapons and gear with haste effects were IMO the 2 worst additions to FFXI ever. They were so bad that they generate nerf to certain jobs when using it in certain situations (like KC DRK having souleater nerfed ot the haste cap).

I'd rather having balanced content that can be used properly at all situations. Specially because we have different basic actions here...just imagine a multihit weapon being comboed with stuff like Full Thrust, that already generates enhanced TP gain or to actions like Nature Fury...nature fury with multi hit would become pretty much a shotgun if it start doing multiple hits to anyone in is damage cone...

And then people weould say "make it multihit only if used with the starting basic attack, just like ARCs already do with multishot". And that's it...when you say this you will be confirming that its unbalanced because you're restricting it to a specific situation (of course multishot is unbalanced...or else it wouldn't deal more damage than barrage, that is supposed to be ARC's best WS...it shouldn't tho...maybe after attribute balancing WS's will start receiving MOD effect from attributes so they can remove this restriction from multishot/trifurcate).

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Originally Posted by Lienn

This would be a primary point. If they reach to a point of adding multi-hit weapons, they MUST be primary weapon only, not working off-hand.

Multi-hit weapons and gear with haste effects were IMO the 2 worst additions to FFXI ever. They were so bad that they generate nerf to certain jobs when using it in certain situations (like KC DRK having souleater nerfed ot the haste cap).

I'd rather having balanced content that can be used properly at all situations. Specially because we have different basic actions here...just imagine a multihit weapon being comboed with stuff like Full Thrust, that already generates enhanced TP gain or to actions like Nature Fury...nature fury with multi hit would become pretty much a shotgun if it start doing multiple hits to anyone in is damage cone...

And then people weould say "make it multihit only if used with the starting basic attack, just like ARCs already do with multishot". And that's it...when you say this you will be confirming that its unbalanced because you're restricting it to a specific situation (of course multishot is unbalanced...or else it wouldn't deal more damage than barrage, that is supposed to be ARC's best WS...it shouldn't tho...maybe after attribute balancing WS's will start receiving MOD effect from attributes so they can remove this restriction from multishot/trifurcate).

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DRK was still completely OP when it came to that fact, and the only reason they nerfed SE is because it made AV too easy for a high-tier shell who had multiple Haste capped KC DRKs, they also added a few immunities to him on that factor as well.

Exactly. But balanced features does not need nerf. Haste (spell) never needed nerf...souleater neither...it was the reckless addition of certain equipments, including the infamous KC and haste gear, that brought this issue up.

Its what i was talking in my first post here...if they add multihit weaps in as an option for very evasive mobs (instead of doing one swing og 100 you do 2 of 50, 3 of 33, etc so you would have a much better chance of getting some TP of that mob per attack) it would be perfectly rational and balanced since here TP is gain is based on damage dealt so in the end all options would generate the very same TP (i don't like this TP system tho...i'd rather having an fixed TP gain based on basic action used...like having one that deal more damage or has secundary effect generating less TP, basic attack having a balanced amount of TP generated for the standard dps and actions that generate improved TP dealing less damage).

But its that thing...we are all assuming an auto-attack similar to FFXI. Depending of the attack speed of this AA the addition of multi-hit weapons would become pointless TP-wise.

I agree that a weapon like the KC was ridiculous and did make some aspects un-enjoyable because it made SE nerf certain features, but weapons like the M.Kris or the Joy Toy were not OP, they added an extra attack that helped warriors before they would get a ridill or THFs with their multiple hit attacks they already had, and THF's were not OP, nor were Jugg/Ridill WARs, KC's, however, were.

K.Club was only OP when used with SE+BW, and I suppose on Rangers as well to an extent. Outside of that, KC was a toy more than anything. It was never used on any challenging content nor in EXP/Merit PTs (Minus Rangers) because you were essentially gimping yourself because of its extremely low dmg rating. Not to mention that most melee classes had terrible club skill resulting in less than adequate accuracy on anything over Even Match.

Even when used in the situations where it was actually better than other options, it was still only marginally better. Anyone who owned one will tell you this. The main reasons people wanted them was for novelty, fun, nothing else to their spend gil on, or for KC DRK zergs.

If SE implemented another KC-like weapon in the game without something like Souleater, then the balance wouldn't be an issue and I would welcome its addition with open arms.

Edit: The same can be said for M. kris. Joytoy and Ridill were the only 2 that were actually worth getting if you wanted to increase your damage output in normal, party based situations. And after the 2 hand weapon buff, Ridill was no longer that great, leaving only Joytoy worth getting.

Soul Eater aside, the rest were just for fun.

Yes please ;)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the Rune Chopper DRK builds that lead to haste caps? I don't remember any caps before that.

Rune chopper was cheap and available to just about everyone, and the gear builds were very similar. The difference was, K club maxed out at about 270ish a hit (I was Mithra with 8/8 HP merits so HP wasn't as high as Galka) while Rune chopper could easily top 400+ per hit, making it much more powerful than K club zerg. Not to mention the extra haste you got just from having Rune Chopper equipped.

Note: I quit when the cap was still 75 so the above info is definitely not still true.

Man, I have some fond memories camping Charybdis. I must've tanked him 25-30 times on my Ninja helping different people obtain their Joyeuse. Met a lot of great people in the process. We need goals and challenges like these to bring us together!

On another note, I really don't think the Kraken Club was too Op'd. It was really only the one situation with DRK's and SE (occasionally BW). Other than that, it's what MeowyWowie said, "they are just a toy."

EDIT: I've seen some wicked WHM burn parties in KRT with K clubs as well. Very cool stuff.

Weren't multi-hit weapons a possibility (and moreso a probability) even before auto-attack? Take a look at any weapon in-game and note the "Number of attacks: 1" line on it. They wouldn't have that there if that number wasn't intended to be a variable.

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Originally Posted by Archadius

Weren't multi-hit weapons a possibility (and moreso a probability) even before auto-attack? Take a look at any weapon in-game and note the "Number of attacks: 1" line on it. They wouldn't have that there if that number wasn't intended to be a variable.

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I noticed this also, but did not see it working AT ALL with the attack rate being so high for nearly every (if not all) class(es). With auto-attack now in place, it really opens up what you can do with something like multi-hit weapons. Even if this auto-attack is faster than XI's, it will at least give a constant rate of attack for multi-hits to be based off of.

Checked in with the King of Battle himself, Matsui. He said that once the future battle-related edits take place, he believes there will be a need for specialized weapons, so at that time he will be looking into it while he discusses ideas again.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Checked in with the King of Battle himself, Matsui. He said that once the future battle-related edits take place, he believes there will be a need for specialized weapons, so at that time he will be looking into it while he discusses ideas again.

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Well, hopefully he learned with FFXI mistakes (since Matsui was from FFXI battle team too) and will try his best to keep balance of new weapons. Would be nice seeing stuff that aren't considered "a must" to certain classes...or we might end as FFXI, where the player staying or not in a PT was based on his gear and not skill.

i dont really care about multi hit weapons like past maybe 2-3 hits a kracken club no thanks but they most definitely need to add DUAL WIELD!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Well, hopefully he learned with FFXI mistakes (since Matsui was from FFXI battle team too) and will try his best to keep balance of new weapons. Would be nice seeing stuff that aren't considered "a must" to certain classes...or we might end as FFXI, where the player staying or not in a PT was based on his gear and not skill.

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What ffxi did u guys play?
I keep seeing this crap about ppl like making a big deal of someones gear not being as good as yours and being looked down on for it.
I never had that happened to me nor did any of my ls mates every talk down to someone that didnt have all the leet gear,Even if there were ppl like that wow just ignor them and enjoy the game exp for yourself.
Also no matter what the game you may find these elitist that ppl talk about.
Dont be so fluffy soft about it, when you see an elitist prick just remember its a game and dont take it too seriously, but I would hate to see something awesome not get put in and the reason was because some ppl that may not have the time to get these items will be emo about it and grab the pill bottle.
If their smart they will implament as many of the good things about xi as they can to this failed game and maybe its survivability will be 1/2 of what xi's is jeebus.
Soooo many soft hearted overly emotional ppl play mmorpg's lol thoes of u like that... man dont ever step into a mmofps like say black-ops lmao you'd probably cry yourself to sleep after some of the stuff you get in a match on steam @.@

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the Rune Chopper DRK builds that lead to haste caps? I don't remember any caps before that.

Rune chopper was cheap and available to just about everyone, and the gear builds were very similar. The difference was, K club maxed out at about 270ish a hit (I was Mithra with 8/8 HP merits so HP wasn't as high as Galka) while Rune chopper could easily top 400+ per hit, making it much more powerful than K club zerg. Not to mention the extra haste you got just from having Rune Chopper equipped.

Note: I quit when the cap was still 75 so the above info is definitely not still true.

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Actually Rune CHopper was used before a DRK received Bahamuts Zaghnal, BZ was just barely under KC in all actuality when it came to amount of DMG put out before SE wore off.

And when people bitch about multi-hit weapons, they apparently never played in end game, they were extremely powerful against non HNM mobs, but who really cared about OPness in parties? If you want to complain about that, then complain about SAMs.

DRKs may have had an edge with KC with SE, but, see how long you live when you go all out and you hit the hate cap faster than the tanks.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Checked in with the King of Battle himself, Matsui. He said that once the future battle-related edits take place, he believes there will be a need for specialized weapons, so at that time he will be looking into it while he discusses ideas again.

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Thank you, Bay! I'm really looking forward to it!

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Originally Posted by Gath

Actually Rune CHopper was used before a DRK received Bahamuts Zaghnal, BZ was just barely under KC in all actuality when it came to amount of DMG put out before SE wore off.

And when people bitch about multi-hit weapons, they apparently never played in end game, they were extremely powerful against non HNM mobs, but who really cared about OPness in parties? If you want to complain about that, then complain about SAMs.

DRKs may have had an edge with KC with SE, but, see how long you live when you go all out and you hit the hate cap faster than the tanks.

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Rune chopper, before haste cap was implemented, was the best zerg weapon in the game. BZ was just another KC substitute and was actually surpassed in dmg by M. Kris When it came to DRK zergs.

What made the Rune chopper build so powerful was the 9% haste that came with it. For those who don't know how haste worked in FFXI, 50% haste was not 50% increase in speed, it was actually double. 0% haste was normal attack speed, while 100% haste (though unobtainable) would have been 0 delay, essentially infinite attack speed.

If my memory serves me correctly, a RC DRK could cap their haste at 83.7% (I think that was the magical number, it's been a while since I played), which turned Rune Chopper's delay of 504 into about 81. Coupled with Triple-attack and Double-attack gear, it hit only slightly slower than K. Club, but the extra buff to dmg per hit made it much more powerful. Either way, I know it was in the 80s, and this is what ultimately lead to SE implementing a haste cap (67% or something?)

After the haste cap, KC again became the most powerful zerg weapon. The haste cap only existed to nerf RC DRKs and didn't affect any other job from what I can remember, maybe RDM but I don't know, I don't play mages.

The rest of your post I absolutely agree with. Multi hit weapons were mainly just for fun and never meant for use in regular party based content.

As for the Soul Eater nerf, it was only nerfed for 1 mob in the entire game, Absolute Virtue. This was the only nerf we actually saw because of multi-hit weapons, and for 95% of the population, did not affect them at all. DRK zergs were still used for Kirin, KV, SL, etc.

Anyone claiming that multi-hit weapons were a "must have" is incorrect. Yea, they were a nice bonus if you owned them, but never have I seen anyone refer to them as "must have" weapons. You weren't looked at as being gimp if you never owned one. If anyone ever told you this, they were obviously just elitist snobs that thought they were better than you because they owned one, and as such, should be completely ignored. I owned just about every multi-hit weapon in the game at one point or another, and never did I look down on anyone who didn't. My advice would be to not let people like this get to you, as they're clearly just douche bags and their opinions should have no merit.

Yes please....

and yes please for OMFGWTFRELICS!

a good MMO needs relic stuff...epic gear... something you need to spill your blood to get it.

In ffxi i had no relic because of the gret effort you needed to get one.... but when i saw ppl with the first relic i was like O_O.... its like when you see a ferrari outrun you on a highway...."good feelings"

If they add relic in FFXIV ill try get one... if it will be to hard to get one, then np.... ill be happy anyway with my stuff.

meritocracy is a even method.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Thank you, Bay! I'm really looking forward to it!



Rune chopper, before haste cap was implemented, was the best zerg weapon in the game. BZ was just another KC substitute and was actually surpassed in dmg by M. Kris When it came to DRK zergs.

What made the Rune chopper build so powerful was the 9% haste that came with it. For those who don't know how haste worked in FFXI, 50% haste was not 50% increase in speed, it was actually double. 0% haste was normal attack speed, while 100% haste (though unobtainable) would have been 0 delay, essentially infinite attack speed.

If my memory serves me correctly, a RC DRK could cap their haste at 83.7% (I think that was the magical number, it's been a while since I played), which turned Rune Chopper's delay of 504 into about 81. Coupled with Triple-attack and Double-attack gear, it hit only slightly slower than K. Club, but the extra buff to dmg per hit made it much more powerful. Either way, I know it was in the 80s, and this is what ultimately lead to SE implementing a haste cap (67% or something?)

After the haste cap, KC again became the most powerful zerg weapon. The haste cap only existed to nerf RC DRKs and didn't affect any other job from what I can remember, maybe RDM but I don't know, I don't play mages.

The rest of your post I absolutely agree with. Multi hit weapons were mainly just for fun and never meant for use in regular party based content.

As for the Soul Eater nerf, it was only nerfed for 1 mob in the entire game, Absolute Virtue. This was the only nerf we actually saw because of multi-hit weapons, and for 95% of the population, did not affect them at all. DRK zergs were still used for Kirin, KV, SL, etc.

Anyone claiming that multi-hit weapons were a "must have" is incorrect. Yea, they were a nice bonus if you owned them, but never have I seen anyone refer to them as "must have" weapons. You weren't looked at as being gimp if you never owned one. If anyone ever told you this, they were obviously just elitist snobs that thought they were better than you because they owned one, and as such, should be completely ignored. I owned just about every multi-hit weapon in the game at one point or another, and never did I look down on anyone who didn't. My advice would be to not let people like this get to you, as they're clearly just douche bags and their opinions should have no merit.

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Yeah, I know RC was up there, but I was mostly talking about post haste cap. I know that SE was nerfed against the one mob, but SE always had pride in having one "almost" unstoppable badass, if not more. PW and AV are the most renown for ass-kickery.

Well they weren't so much a problem, as endgame wise, it was very hard to achieve and SE nor I would think it's any problem for a small population to get "demi god" status, much like relic weapons.

It's only after the years dragged on and on, did it become a problem. One thing that was problematic with FF11, is 75 gone on too long.

It was balance, but at same time unbalancing, because people couldn't let go of established path to glories. If they had raise to 99 a good 2yrs earlier, we wouldn't have this discussion, because everything will get naturally "superseded" and balanced out like other MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Gath

Yeah, I know RC was up there, but I was mostly talking about post haste cap. I know that SE was nerfed against the one mob, but SE always had pride in having one "almost" unstoppable badass, if not more. PW and AV are the most renown for ass-kickery.

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I wasn't really disagreeing with you. Just trying to clarify that haste cap and SE were not nerfed because of multi-hit weapons as some have suggested. 1 weapon and 1 mob was the root cause.

I know, I was just explaining my intended time period, I didn't get my KC until after the haste cap.
Though, my Mandau was really awesome, I didn't care about the KC, though my endgame LS only wanted my KC DRK.

I hope there will be multi hit weapons since I don't think we'd have a slot on the info telling how many hits the weapon does if we weren't gonna get em right? I'm a mage so it'd be cool to see it implemented for DoM classes, but I would at least love to see this for DoW classes