SQENIX: You have a SERIOUS loot problem in this game

I've played MMOs for over a decade. To date, I've not played one that has the issues with loot that this one does. This is not an exaggeration. This is not a fabrication. These are facts:

- Over the last 6 weeks of clearing turns 1 - 4 every week, and I chose the last six weeks because that's when I "officially" started keeping track of loot, we have received, at minimum, 4 pieces of DRG or MNK loot per group, across all three of our groups.

To put this in perspective, all three of our Coil groups have only one melee. To further put this in perspective, here's some simple math for you:

- 6 weeks x 3 groups = 18 runs through Turns 1, 2, and 4.
- 18 runs through Turns 1, 2, and 4, with 2 drops per Turn = 6 x 18 = 108 pieces of loot.
- A minimum of 4 DRG or MNK loot for each of those 18 runs through Turns 1, 2, and 4 = 72 pieces of DRG or MNK loot.
- 1 melee / group due to your melee-punishing raid design = 1/8 or 12.5% of eligible raiders are DRG or MNK.
- 72 DRG or MNK pieces / 108 total drops = 67% of our drops are DRG or MNK.
- 67% of the loot is for 12.5% of our players.

All three of our melee are decked almost completely out in i90 gear. The ONLY reason they're not is because of lots and lots of duplicate drops (insult to injury) that simply rotted.

You recently, and supposedly, fixed Turn 1 at the very least acknowledging that DRG loot had too high a drop rate. Tonight, the loot my group received was as follows:

Turn 1: DRG, DRG
Turn 2: DRG, Healing accessory
Turn 4: MNK, MNK

What I want to know are answers to the following:

1) Why do you feel it makes sense to drop MNK loot at all when we do not have a MNK in the party? Take a poll. Ask the players if they want loot being dropped for specs that are not present in the raid. You will get an overwhelming majority against it.

2) Why have you, nor has any other MMO, implemented adaptive loot for raid instances? Instead of generating loot for all encounters the moment the instance is created for a group or at the moment an instance is "locked" to a group, why not generate the loot at the time of the boss kill, only for that boss, based on the party makeup? Further, why not take that a step further? You have the entire history of every piece of loot ever obtained by every player right there in your database. Why not assign a significantly higher drop percentage to loot that is needed? Don't tell me this can't be done because it absolutely can. In fact, a decade as a developer and 3 years specifically in the game dev industry says I could probably write the code for you.

You are on the verge of losing players to your loot system and that is a shame. There are several members of my Free Company that are seriously considering leaving the game because they have been unable to achieve ANY sense of gear progression in order to stay competitive in the area of this game they enjoy most: raiding.

Please fix your looting system. Do something inventive. Be resourceful. Lead the MMO industry instead of following in the tired old mechanisms of every MMO gone before you.

The only problem is they make a loot drop 18 items. They should just let it drop ticket and who win the loot will be able to exchange it for their class. This is not tome system you still have to win the loot in the 1st place but it will be fair as everyone will have the same chance for something useful for them.

Funny you say that, because since the 2nd week after release, our group have only seen 1 major piece of DRG armor - hands (accessories & belt we have seen of course, but similar story for all jobs) We have seen bits and pieces for all roles, although we often go 2-3 weeks without seeing a single major slot (head/body/hands/legs/feet).

The biggest problem from I can tell is simply turn 1 - We have seen a very large number of BRD wrists, shields, Casting rings, and Tank chokers.
They said they "fixed" the loot table for turn 1, 2-3 weeks ago, yet every week since this update on both my main and my alt characters - there has only been 1 run where I have not seen the casting ring.

They can't turn it into a ticket system because then Coil becomes as linear as everything else at 50. Personally, I haven't seen a single tank drop but I'm sure if it was a token system there were would be 40+ PLDs standing AFK at Mor Dhona Tuesday-Sunday that look exactly the same.

You will get gear for your own class faster through a token system or system that recognizes classes in the party when items drop and they definitely do not want that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synovius

I've played MMOs for over a decade. To date, I've not played one that has the issues with loot that this one does. This is not an exaggeration. This is not a fabrication.

---

If this was true then you need to go post this exact same thing on the WoW forums.

I heard on the down low that this is just revenge for everyone picking on DRG for a decade in FFXI. loldrg.

I'm a Dragoon and my static just cleared Turns 1-4 for the second time. I've gotten 7 drops... far more than anyone else in the group. It's getting embarrassing for me and is causing some (deserved) resentment in them. As much as I like the loot, I'd rather it got spread around more. I'm afraid they're going to think I'm blessed/cursed or something and replace me.

I also agree it is tough seeing so many DRG and MNK drops ( I have only seen 1 tank item and I lost the lot) but I used to play XI and ran Dynamis runs for months not seeing drops I wanted, so maybe I'm used to it. I can still do everything so far 1-4 without the pieces, but then there are other groups that are praying for the MNK or DRG im sure.

My group has been clearing 1-4 for 8 weeks, this week is our 9th.

Loot
2 casters
2 healer
4 tank
2 monk
The rest of our loot has been either drg or brd gear.

We run with myself as a monk and a drg. The drg is now almost completely i90 while I have 5 pieces, 3 of which are mytho pieces. I actually have more brd allagan gear than I do mnk gear and my brds level 15 lol. Its pretty depressing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synovius

You are on the verge of losing players to your loot system and that is a shame.

---

What SE are doing is pure evil genius; you continue to run those raids over and over again because you aren't getting what you want. As soon as they say, 'here's a way to get everything you need', you get your gear in a week and stop playing. Then, people start complaining about a lack of endgame.

I do agree with you though; the loot system could do with a tweak. However, everybody has different experiences with loot. As a Bard, running the mid-level dungeons, I get bows all the time. It's not unusual for me to get two per raid. I've only ever seen one chest piece though.

Token-based system is the best; there are few ways how to do it.

I don't mind them forcing me to do coil for months so I'm subscribed...
But at least for those MONTHS I'm putting, I want some reward!

So far I tanked coil for 2 months, and all I got is 1 drop, out of 2 that dropped in those 2 months.
that is 8 weeks of raiding, 8 x 3 x 2 = 48 drops doing t1-t4... and only 2/48 are tank drops.


Solution(s):
1- A better system is to have "token" to drop that I can exchange for gear; since a raiding group is entitled 2 drops per turn, ALLOW US to choose those drops ^_^
(downside: no need/greed, there might be bickering in between raids since anyone & everyone can always technically need, but then again this isn't much of a downside DKP is well-established)

2- A smart loot table that produces random yet something that is relevant per group.
(downside: what if you have 2 x WHM or 2 x BRD where they got 1 piece, so that means this piece will not drop again which the 2nd player needs)

3- Tokens that players get by default (no lotting) and special taken that is worth more points that is lotted. (the sum of all points is again, 6 items per 3 turns)
(while internal fighting is possible it is much less now, because at least I know I'll be getting tokens that will allow me say in 2 weeks get an allagan piece! just an example)

I'm sure there are many other creative solutions, simple solutions......

Just do something about it.. the way it is right now simply is not acceptable, given how much SE & Yoshida are preaching about:

--> NEW MMO TREAND, NEW MMO TREAND
--> Adjusting for new generations, Adjusting for new generations, Adjusting for new generations,
--> people don't have much time! people don't have much time! people don't have much time! people don't have much time!

They keep repeating it as design philosophy, so why not apply the same principle here?

PLEASE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rexie

Solution(s):
1- A better system is to have "token" to drop that I can exchange for gear; since a raiding group is entitled 2 drops per turn, ALLOW US to choose those drops ^_^
(downside: no need/greed, there might be bickering in between raids since anyone & everyone can always technically need, but then again this isn't much of a downside DKP is well-established)

2- A smart loot table that produces random yet something that is relevant per group.
(downside: what if you have 2 x WHM or 2 x BRD where they got 1 piece, so that means this piece will not drop again which the 2nd player needs)

3- Tokens that players get by default (no lotting) and special taken that is worth more points that is lotted. (the sum of all points is again, 6 items per 3 turns)
(while internal fighting is possible it is much less now, because at least I know I'll be getting tokens that will allow me say in 2 weeks get an allagan piece! just an example)

---

The token system, I believe, would actually lend itself to strengthening some FCs bonds. Running with a static group means building your group, gearwise, in a fashion that helps the whole of the group. Assuming heads are removed from asses, future content that allows for alliances to enter pre-built will mean FCs building proper teams and gearing them in ways that help the FC as a whole. Could there be some in-fighting, sure, but I think the pros for this outweigh the cons by a fair margin.

Smart loot tables can adjust for the party composition, 2 brds and only 1 has a Turn 1 drop, the rate would still be increased. Only if both of them have that item already would it be nixed from the loot table. Expanding it to take into account total number of items owned by each party member, that DRG w/ 7 allagan drops already could see the drg slots in the table significantly reduced, normalizing the gear per party member. There are a number of ways to implement it so that things become more balanced than pure RNG, how sad is it to watch an Allagan ring of striking hit the floor cause everyone has one ... that's just broken.

So everyone gets 1 "coin" per turn cleared and a 5piece also drops each turn that everyone can try to need, that's the first system only with the potential to need alot more "coins" to get a piece of gear. Reminds me of Dyna.

Nyzul Isle ... how long did that last before people were sick of it, combined random loot and fixed rate currency ...


Edit: 1000 chars ... why? really? I mean is text that data intensive we can't get 2500 or 5000... ???

I agree with you ^^

i was just typing worst case scenario :)

I hope SE listens, and more importantly, responds..

They have a really great idea going with CT, and hopefully they will bring it to coil.

With CT's loot ticket system, you could run coil over and over as many times as you want, and you get loot locked (from all turns) the moment you pick one piece of gear. So now you need to figure out which piece you want and which pieces that drop are worth losing your chance at other pieces in the future. It also allows people to run with their friends after being loot locked, thus extending the play time of each player each week.

You can run the dungeons 50 times in a week for a chance at that last bis for your main class or you can settle for a good upgrade on an alt class that just so happened to drop.

I love the idea and I hope they change coil loot to be like CT as soon as possible and in future turns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zdub303

With CT's loot ticket system, you could run coil over and over as many times as you want, and you get loot locked (from all turns) the moment you pick one piece of gear. So now you need to figure out which piece you want and which pieces that drop are worth losing your chance at other pieces in the future. It also allows people to run with their friends after being loot locked, thus extending the play time of each player each week.

---

This is what I see happening with the proposed CT system
24 people (16 being pugs) running crystal, first boss gets killed x,y,z get loot.... x and z say well I am done cya next week and drop group and system bugs out not replacing them as it does often in 4 mans... yep the other 21 people get screwed.

I like the fact that we can rerun to help our friends as there are certainly times when a group is missing a class and the only person available is already locked out of a turn.

that is assuming they'll allow you to run coil as much as you want for 1 week... and locking you for that week... sure..yeah..they'll do that >_>;;;

I wish they do, it is an excellent idea! at least I know I should be able to get 1 piece of gear!!

So I might have missed it while I was sleeping but did they confirm how the CT loot system works?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altena

Funny you say that, because since the 2nd week after release, our group have only seen 1 major piece of DRG armor--

---

I am with Altena on this one. I hear groups complain that all they get is DRG loot yet all I have seen is an earring. We've mostly received BRD gear with a mixture of tank and healing gear + a small number of casting gear.

Maybe DPS gear drops more cause DPS is more expendable? (obviously i jest to an extent but there is some truth to this statement) I can actually see why SE would have mnk/drg/brd stuff drop more often from a couple of different perspectives. A; in an 8 man party with 2 healers 2 tanks and 4~ dps, there are just more dps to cater too than the other players. B; I know people arent actually likethis but what if all the tanks n healers got the gear they wanted and just stopped doing coil all together, leaving all the poor dps with no one to do the rest of the fighting rolls for them. Creating a system in which healers n tanks get gear last or not as often keeps them coming back and keeps your party flowing smoothly. lastly maybe they give DPS the items first so they can increase DPS and get you through to higher levels of said dungeon faster, seeing as how this game has so many fights that focus specifically on DPS "racing". im just playing the devils advocate though...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanama

I am with Altena on this one. I hear groups complain that all they get is DRG loot yet all I have seen is an earring. We've mostly received BRD gear with a mixture of tank and healing gear + a small number of casting gear.

---

It's arbitrary, really. Random loot is "random". While we get nothing but DRG/MNK loot, you get mostly BRD loot. The issue is with the system at its core. I've no idea why MMO developers simply don't implement adaptive loot wherein you look at the history of gear received by the players whom took down an encounter and drastically increase the percent chance for "needed" items to drop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synovius

It's arbitrary, really. Random loot is "random". While we get nothing but DRG/MNK loot, you get mostly BRD loot. The issue is with the system at its core. I've no idea why MMO developers simply don't implement adaptive loot wherein you look at the history of gear received by the players whom took down an encounter and drastically increase the percent chance for "needed" items to drop.

---

Because they don't want you to finish gearing your character quickly, as people are more likely to leave the game once everything is dead and they have all the gear they want. Also, any system where players can manipulate the probability of something dropping will probably get abused.

If rare loot isn't rare, it uh...won't be rare...I think the ticket idea is boring, I mean, talk about an immersion killer, you slay this epic boss and receive a ticket....its lame.

Adaptive loot....maybe but I still think it should be totally random, sounds like it could be averaged better, but I much prefer the idea of random drops over tickets, and folks are right in saying people complain either way, I think people would complain about nothing to do if they could easily gear themselves, not to mention, isn't it boring if everyone has the same gear?

If you raid for loot, you're done with the game when you have all the loot. Maybe the bosses should drop NOTHING at all, so then playeres would play for the content, experience and human interaction.

In 2003, I recall raiding bosses that literally dropped nothing useful at all. In fact in older mmos gear was much less significant. IMO only since WoW has gear been eleveated to the end all be all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simaril

If you raid for loot, you're done with the game when you have all the loot. Maybe the bosses should drop NOTHING at all, so then playeres would play for the content, experience and human interaction.

In 2003, I recall raiding bosses that literally dropped nothing useful at all. In fact in older mmos gear was much less significant. IMO only since WoW has gear been eleveated to the end all be all.

---

This is an irrelevant argument. While I (nor anyone in my FC that I'm aware except perhaps one person) don't raid for loot, loot is often a requirement in order to progress. Exhibit A: Please let me know how it goes attempting Twintania with 3500 health and only a piece or two of i90. Conclusion: you will have zero chance at getting past the second phase.

So, with that said, are you prepared to say it's all well and good that Free Companies should be arbitrarily held back from progression because, although they are able to consistently and easily kill previous encounters, they cannot get the loot they need to have a chance with the remaining encounters?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sylin

If rare loot isn't rare...

---

Having the same gear is irrelevant. Although there is a "BiS" list for each class, there is nothing that would require everyone to be fully BiS to progress on, say, Twintania. For example, I'm using two pieces, right now, that are not BiS for me. However, they were an improvement over Darklight so I'm using them. I don't need BiS to consistently be over 300 DPS. I do, however, need good gear. With adaptive loot, you will still have the opportunity to gear out how you want - it's just that you won't have to sit through weeks and weeks and weeks of gear rot in order to get there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Menae

Because...

---

So an artificial barrier to progression must exist in order to keep people playing the game? Shouldn't they be striving to keep subscriptions by releasing quality content and interesting features instead of using the loot system as a proverbial ball and chain disallowing departure from the game?

Using a poor loot system to maintain subscriptions is essentially the same idea that most cable companies use to deter folks from canceling/switching their service. They build in arbitrary headaches and wait times by way of phone menus and obscenely long phone times on hold before you can get a hold of a customer service representative to cancel your service. Tell me: do you enjoy that kind of tactic? If not, why would you be okay with it within the confines of an MMO but not otherwise?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synovius

So an artificial barrier to progression must exist in order to keep people playing the game? Shouldn't they be striving to keep subscriptions by releasing quality content and interesting features instead of using the loot system as a proverbial ball and chain disallowing departure from the game?

Using a poor loot system to maintain subscriptions is essentially the same idea that most cable companies use to deter folks from canceling/switching their service. They build in arbitrary headaches and wait times by way of phone menus and obscenely long phone times on hold before you can get a hold of a customer service representative to cancel your service. Tell me: do you enjoy that kind of tactic? If not, why would you be okay with it within the confines of an MMO but not otherwise?

---

Life is not fair. Why should an MMO be? You do not have the right to progress - you have to earn it... with some luck. OR wait until a major patch or expansion comes that makes it easier to progress.

If everyone could follow a clearly defined path to the cutting edge, exclusive end game, it wouldn't be cutting edge and exclusive. I would wager that it 2.1 or expansion will make it more accessible to omre people and there will be some new cutting edge exclusive thing only the few lucky hardcore gamers get to do/see.

I have never seen mnk gear drop in coil. It's rng - some things might drop...something might not. That's how all mmo are iirc.

I just stopped. Not because I didn't get what I wanted... but because Alleg. is ugly and since there are no raids after coil, it's pointless gear.

There's not really any progression. It's just one tier of raiding currently, so I really don't care about getting raid loot... since there are no other raids to use it in to progress.... and there won't be.

You can't really have much progression with only 1 tier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I just stopped. Not because I didn't get what I wanted... but because Alleg. is ugly and since there are no raids after coil, it's pointless gear.

There's not really any progression. It's just one tier of raiding currently, so I really don't care about getting raid loot... since there are no other raids to use it in to progress.... and there won't be.

You can't really have much progression with only 1 tier.

---

Tell that to Twintania who is more difficult than Turn 1, 2, and 4 combined.

Update from Monday night:

Turn 1: BRD / MNK
Turn 2: Healer / MNK
Turn 4: DRG / MNK

Thanks SQenix!

the experience for me of last four runs. Healer, Caster , Healer and caster. No tank, No any physical attacker gears :(

So..lets make a third Tome? Tome of Coilosophy? Make every coil chest drop a couple.

Even if we make only a tiny step to a new piece of gear per boss, its still a step. With the RNG system the chance of gaining an item is always the same per run. You arent really rewarded according to how much time you put in, your 10th run will mean the same as the other guys first run. With new Tomes you would at least have gotten 10 runs worth of something.

Now then if the new Tomes give the same gear as Coil stuff there is the issue of being able to farm t1 and eventually buy t4 gear. So some tracking of what turns you have managed to beat would be nice as well.

P.S just to annoy you guys, three tank items in three runs so far. (downed t4 first day tho).

I have to agree with this thread. Our group is to the point of giving away unneeded gear 50% of the time now.

Over the past 9 weeks of raiding, our primary DRG is almost fully i90, and we have 2 other people in our group with decked out drg and monk alt classes. Meanwhile our caster has 3 drops (in 9 weeks) and our tanks have had 7. There are still healer items we haven't seen either.

To top that off, we have had SMN book drop two times in a row on turn 5, and we don't even have a SMN primary in our group.

an estimated 70-80% of our coil drops have been DRG/MNK items. Our caster almost quit the game 2 weeks ago before he got his FIRST drop after raiding with us for 6 weeks.

The loot system in this game is extremely uneven. When it comes to gear, the game favors melee DPS over all others, and casters seem to get the worst drop rates. When it comes to weapons, its the opposite, with books (SMN, SCH) being the most common, DRG and MONK weapons right behind. This is completely unacceptable, as the rest of a raid group is stunted in progression.

Just did turn 1 and 2 tonight.

T1 = DRG/DRG - Belt/Pants
T2 = DRG/DRG - Choker/Gloves

The belt has dropped in turn 1 every week for the past month.

The coil could drop key-materials that are craft-bound (tradable, resulting item is usable by original looter while tradable at the same time). I put the outline and core ideas here.

Crappy item drop rng doesn't exist in this system (people always get valuable stuff from the run), raiders don't have to pursue crafting either, content gating is much more fine grained and independent from shitty rng.

We have been farming Coil since first possible. Also have killed Twintania as well. Alls I can say is random sucks but deal with it. Our DRG was full ilvl90 like FULL geared and some people only had 1 piece. Now months later. MOST of us are about 2 or 3 pieces from Full Allagan minus weapons cause we just started downing Twintania. Just saw the Allagan healing helm for the first time ever in our last clear. still havnt seen the healing belt or gloves, ever.. not once... not anyones fault.. just random. i remember in Wow Vanillia i raided MC for 8 months not because i had to but because i wanted my warrior shoulders. and I NEVER got them never missed a raid.. they just never dropped. Random is Random and sometimes it sucks. My whole raid has Offclasses as geared as our mains because of same loot dropping every week.. shit happens

The loot system in ARR is very poorly balanced.

Currently:
Turn 6 drops:
-Tank head
-Monk head
-DRG gloves
-Healer gloves
-MNK waist
-BRD waist
-Healer feet
-Caster feet
-BRD feet
-Tank feet
-Caster neck
-Healer earring
-BRD earring
-Melee earring
-Tank bracelets
-Caster ring



-----Take note----

The loot table drops "Tank" gear, and then "Monk" gear.

Typical Pug or static party make up:
Paladin
Warrior
Scholar
White Mage
Dragoon or Monk
Bard
Black Mage
Summoner


If a Monk piece drops with a typical party make up the monk has a 100% chance of obtaining gear.

More dramatically every time no matter what the bard will always receive gear if bard gear does indeed drop, even if its an accessory.

Even in other cases the Off tank could be after strength accessories sharing gear with the melee and bard still always has a 100% (if bard gear drops) chance even if its accessories due to no shared gear.

Turn 6 statistics for obtaining gear: (ROUNDED UP)
Paladin.................................9.5%
Warrior.................................9.5%
Scholar.................................9.5%
White Mage...........................9.5%
Dragoon or Monk....................19% (other melee gear dropping constitutes no progression for a players main class)
Bard....................................19%
Black Mage...........................9.5%
Summoner............................9.5%

Under this system if they simply just throw in Ninja gear into the current drop tables, without adding a chest and keeping with the same 3items/job table:
Paladin.................................8%
Warrior.................................8%
Scholar.................................8%
White Mage...........................8%
Dragoon, Monk, or Ninja........16% (other melee gear dropping constitutes no progression for a players main class)
Bard....................................16%
Black Mage...........................8%
Summoner............................8%



Were the system a "token" system not only in pugs but also in statics people could have a fair chance and a more equal progression.

Head gear Token
Chest piece token
Glove token
(etc)

Chances of obtaining gear per turn with token system: (ROUNDED UP)
Paladin.................................13%
Warrior.................................13%
Scholar.................................13%
White Mage............................13%
Dragoon................................13%
Monk.....................................13%
Ninja.....................................13%
Bard.....................................13%
Black Mage............................13%
Summoner.............................13%

(no matter what drops "aka no wasted gear for main job progression" someone will always be gearing up be it in a pug or a static.)




TLDR (THIS IS THE POINT I"M TRYING TO MAKE FOR PEOPLE WHO CANT COMPREHEND THIS)
With a token system, implemented only for coil, statics could more progressively gear, and pugs each person should have a shot at something.

They addressed this in the live letter. As I recall, it won't be in game for Final Coil, but they are planning on something similar to tokens for 3.0.

From my POV, I am not crazed about end-game stuff like this but I had a few battles trying to get a Sand, and surprise-surprise, they are all Needed by everyone.

I know this is supposed to balance things out, but getting a constant NO reward discouraged me to the point that I am not even going to even bother enlisting for those dungeons before 2.4 (I imagine a lot of other players feeling the same way) all so someone can get their 8th i110 weapon.

Not a bad thing, I just choose to put my game playing time into something actually worth it, like DoH, and in-turn get to miss out on all the end-game dogfighting, so two birds really.