Turn 1 boss guide, raiding simplified - tank PoV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2lHN-_jwU

I have but one suggestion...

You stress the split and tank pickup as a point of potential failure, while I do agree with that I feel you're putting unneeded pressure on your OT.

As the MT of the first phase (pre split) you never lose aggro on YOUR snake post split, it carries over your threat. Meaning you could simply walk away with yours the instant the second snake spawns. Allowing your OT to grab aggro and build threat without having to move his snake. This will also remove the need for you, the MT, to avoid tailswipe as you'll be long gone by the time he thinks about using it.

Just my 2gil!

From everything i've read and seen it should be the MT that moves once split not the OT. Since your agro is secure and you're no longer building agro but now maintaining that you should let the OT tank in place and the MT run to new location.

But i've only healed Coil, not quite Tank ready.

OT shouldn't be moving snake, MT should. off-tank is going to have an unnecessarily hard time pulling the second snake to the other side of the map because healers are going to be constantly spamming.

by the time caduceus splits the main tank's hate is high enough to the point where you could not attack caduceus for half a minute to a minute and still hold hate.

I think he gets the point. Lets all read previous posts prior to adding to the "OT shouldn't MOVE" sentiment, lol.

meh if you have a good ot all thats required is provoke shield lob flash circle while running and tank. mt can move but really doesnt matter

If your OT is any good, he is the one who should be moving. Everyone who isn't the OT and one of the healers completely ignores the split and keeps hammering the initial snake. No lost DPS. Then once snake1 is down to 5%ish everyone swaps to the second snake and kills it, then melee LB the first. Done.

Having your MT move requires you to lower DPS while it is being moved (unless you've got 4 ranged DPS in which case go for it).

Im OT and always move the clone. Tomahawk is enough to grab hate, provoke + tomahawk just never fails. I need to tell my boss we are doing it wrong :P

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Originally Posted by Paikis

If your OT is any good, he is the one who should be moving. Everyone who isn't the OT and one of the healers completely ignores the split and keeps hammering the initial snake. No lost DPS. Then once snake1 is down to 5%ish everyone swaps to the second snake and kills it, then melee LB the first. Done.

Having your MT move requires you to lower DPS while it is being moved (unless you've got 4 ranged DPS in which case go for it).

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^inclined to agree with this...

as the OT in turn 1, I never had any issue picking up my snake, provoke + shield lob and just ran to the opposite corner..

as the MT in turn 1, I've never noticed our OT to have issues either

I am almost sure the split doesnt share enmity with the original, its better to just tomahawk and save provoke for the unexpected... you might lose hate to a fairy or something >.<

I drag away the split as the OT all the time. It's easy as hell to do w/o ever having to fear Healers pull of aggro from you. Caduceus has an animation before he splits, simply use your first 2 enmity combo moves and save the last for when it splits, TAB, hit it and run. Tomahawk/Shield Lob while you are running and there is nothing to fear.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

I drag away the split as the OT all the time. It's easy as hell to do w/o ever having to fear Healers pull of aggro from you. Caduceus has an animation before he splits, simply use your first 2 enmity combo moves and save the last for when it splits, TAB, hit it and run. Tomahawk/Shield Lob while you are running and there is nothing to fear.

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I just wait for the animation and then use Flash as soon as I see a second Caduceus on my list of enemies. Then I run to the back of the room while spamming tomahawk. Easiest thing in the world.

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Originally Posted by Maqaqa

I am almost sure the split doesnt share enmity with the original, its better to just tomahawk and save provoke for the unexpected... you might lose hate to a fairy or something >.<

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I am 100% certain that the split spawns with 0 hate on everything.

The 2nd Caduceus that spawns off the first is a "fresh" spawn.
It has absolutely no enmity on it that the first one had.

So if you need an immediately peel, you can spam flash/overpower so instantly grab it and pull it away.
You should not lose threat either since the DPS has to be getting into position anyway for slimes.


Edit: It really won't matter who moves, because in that fight, tank enmity generation is easy to maintain.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

I just wait for the animation and then use Flash as soon as I see a second Caduceus on my list of enemies. Then I run to the back of the room while spamming tomahawk. Easiest thing in the world.

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I simply use RoH cause it's more enmity than Flash(when used in Combo).

To the other discussion. The split spawns with fresh enmity. Why would anyone even think it has shared enmity with the main snake? xD Cure enmity is shared between enemies engaged yeah, but that's it.

I see a lot of posts saying the OT can pull and move the spilt fine, which I completely agree with, but I don't that that's an argument against the main tank simply dragging his snake across as being easier.

Being the off tank gaining hate and kiting the spilt mob is more difficult than the MT simply running across. While we can get into a subjective disagreement about how much harder, (honestly not too much, especially after you get the hang of it) it still is slightly more difficult.

And while we can get into a "look how good of an OT I am" discussion, for someone new to the encounter reading a "raiding simplified" guide, it really should have the main tank moving the mob. For new groups this will make the difference in a wipe or successful split.

So basically, both ways are viable.

Tomahawk + Flash = enough to move the split away (would save provoke, but you could use it too). Another tomahawk as you're bringing it away.

MT moving can be fine too, though I do agree with the slight dmg loss when having 1 or 2 melee dps

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

(would save provoke, but you could use it too).

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Provoking a brand new target will do literally nothing. Provoking a target that you already have hate on will do literally nothing.

Provoke seems to be greatly misunderstood in this game.

Awesome discussion, good points from everyone

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Provoking a brand new target will do literally nothing. Provoking a target that you already have hate on will do literally nothing.

Provoke seems to be greatly misunderstood in this game.

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You are right and I completely agree, however, there is many times a large heal (healing up a tank from hoodswipe, normal damage, someone derped and split heals so Cure II is needed, etc.) that makes an instant provoke worth it. Its best to feel it out, but a crit Cure II (regen prob up as well) will put a simple Tomahawk/Shield Lob to shame. Its best to feel things out, if I see the tank get low and big cures coming I do a provoke > Halone (or BB) > run and Toma/Lob and always has secured hate easily. In fact even without the Halone/BB if you Provoke over the large cure and Toma/Lob it'll secure hate 90% of the time. You can even jump and throw a 2nd to feel comfortable.

Either way OT should drag the add. As people have said earlier, keeping DD going on established threat is better then holding back for OT to pick up. Also comes into effect with existing CDs up, and melee being nearly incapable of hitting things while they move (trololol SE). I usually MT this fight now, our OT never has a problem, and our first down of T1 was me OTing doing this without issue. Honestly it was my first day doing it as well.. so ya.. There is a difference between "beginners guide" and "for bads guide". Its simply more efficient to have the OT move theirs.

*Edit* Also I'm not saying MT moving is for bads, just that the reasoning for doing it is expecting people to be bads. If you are a skilled group, try OT moving for efficiencies sake if nothing else.

I think having the MT move the original snake is a good idea in newer groups, or good for newer tanks, totally agree. However my group has been doing coil since launch basically, and we just burn down cad without popping slimes, and our OT drags him accross the room. If your OT has slower than average reaction time, is under geared, or new to the instance, then yes, its easier for the MT to move. If you're OT is comfortable with the instance, a decent player, he should have 0 issues moving the snake, as long as he tells the DPS on his party to chill the hell out until he gets it to camp.

I usually OT this and what we do is have dps switch to my add first while MT is moving. No threat issues possible this way, and very minimal DPS loss, they can usually go crazy a couple of GCDs after the add spawns.. generally they clear the area to avoid getting cleaved when MT is moving anyway so the dps loss is really negligible

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Provoking a brand new target will do literally nothing. Provoking a target that you already have hate on will do literally nothing.

Provoke seems to be greatly misunderstood in this game.

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Maybe you misunderstood what I said.

Tomahawk/flash or whatever enmity move you use, should be enough. You can use provoke too should you get into trouble. Sometimes one of the healers heal someone with a large heal, resulting in the tank losing it. So you could use provoke there so you're +1 one and then use another enmity skill.

So your comment is better addressed to the ones saying 'provoke and then Tomahawk', which is useless unless the clone is on somebody else the moment it splits..

Thnx for the lesson though..