Det, SS, Crit

Has anyone figured out exactly how much of a stat you need to increase what it does? For example, how much crit = 1% chance to crit? I know ss is ~10.5 for .01 seconds (so 131 on gear = ~5% haste) however I am wondering about the other stats. Now I have seen people put weights on them like if you are building your character then crit stat value is like .715 and ss is .22, however that's not something I'm looking for. Instead I am wondering if anyone has actual numbers on how much of x stat actually increases damage or crit.

13.8 crit is +1% and +5 DET is +1 main stat. Well, for BLM anyway, but I'd assume it to be the same for all.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

13.8 crit is +1% and +5 DET is +1 main stat. Well, for BLM anyway, but I'd assume it to be the same for all.

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wait +5 Det is + 1 main stat? are you sure about that? that pretty good.

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Originally Posted by raikage

wait +5 Det is + 1 main stat? are you sure about that? that pretty good.

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Most stat weights I've seen across the classes put it around that ratio, usually a little better (1:0.22, for example). One thing to remember, though, is that Determination also costs a lot as a stat, so you'll never find it in large quantities on a single piece of gear.

Crit usually gets rated slightly worse than Det on a per-point system, but because it's more abundant on gear, it's usually going to have a bigger overall effect on your performance.

Yeah I agree with you Viridiana I need to get more DET muahahahah

The value of main stat to Crit is pretty much the same for all classes (~0.214), but the value of Det varies wildly based on the particular skill it is being applied to. Det for SMN is more along the lines of ~0.134, which when you consider how much of it you get on gear, makes it plainly inferior to Crit.

So, there is no straight forward answer, and it is going to vary from class to class based on skill potency and implementation.

A general statement could be made that Det is worse on low potency skills than it is on higher potency skills, which is why it comes out better for BLM than Crit, on a point for point basis.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

A general statement could be made that Det is worse on low potency skills than it is on higher potency skills,

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That's complete bullshit.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

That's complete bullshit.

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Would you like to suggest why?

Would you like to provide any data or evidence demonstrating that DTR interacts with Potency differently than any other stat in the game?

DTR is only more important to BLM when your damage is lower. As opposed to SMN, BLM knows when they don't need more DTR and can opt for more crit (or SSD).

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

That's complete bullshit.

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Here comes Easymode with his douchey, elitist attitude. Yay!

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Would you like to provide any data or evidence demonstrating that DTR interacts with Potency differently than any other stat in the game?

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I don't have any data to provide, I suppose all my 'learnings' have been anecdotal and are an accumulation of everything I've ever read on the subject.

As I understand it, DTR applies a % modifier to skill damage. So, if for example by gaining 10 DTR, you gain 1% damage to a spell, that 1% would apply in various ways. On a 200 potency spell, 1% damage would equate to 2 potency, increasing the spell from 200 to 202. However, on a low potency spell (like many SMN DoTs) like Bio, which has 40 potency, a 1% increase would be 40.40 potency, which would get truncated down to 40 damage. Not only is the potential damage gain from DTR lower on low potency spells, but the potential for the added DTR to simply have the damage add truncated is higher. On spells with > 100 potency, this is less of an issue.

Now, exactly how much of an increase is applied is more of a mix of the primary stat (INT, etc.), weapon damage and DTR, but at the core of the dynamic, that analysis is why I conclude that DTR is simply less effective as a stat as compared to crit, which will apply a fairly flat modifier to damage, since it is increasing the opportunity to deal 150% damage at a flate rate. (~13.4 crit for 1% increase in chance)

It would Be nice if someone from the DEV Team would step in and let everyone know what the values of attributes are.

It seems like your perspective boils down to truncation of small increments on DOT ticks.

Assumptions:

1. Damage is actually (not just visually) truncated for each ability separately.
2. You only invest in DTR in small increments.
3. Damage is truncated for individual ticks without crossover for "remainder" damage.
4. Damage without the delta DTR is an integer.

The first assumption is 50/50. By "separately", I mean with regards to all DOTs since they are stored as a single piece of data in memory. If Bio is getting +0.4 per tick, and Miasma is getting +0.3 or whatever, and Bio II gets +0.4, then the total would be +1.1. For your scenario of "DTR gets truncated out a lot", each separate spell tick would have to be separately truncated.

Also note that the "visually" part is important. There are already other data values in the game that have been demonstrated to be truncated for the UI but not in reality (specifically spell speed re: the GCD).

In addition, you are assuming your base damage per tick is an integer (re: #4 above). E.g. 40.0000 damage. This is highly unlikely since your WD is like 6x and Int is at >400. Whatever the actual damage formula is, calculating that down to "40" damage per tick is not going to result in a flat integer. It's just as likely that your 40.9 (truncated to 40) dot tick is boosted to a truncated 41 by 10 DTR (again assuming truncation is real and it's truncated per dot per tick).

The second assumption is a significant assumption, since no one makes gear strategy choices based on +/- 10 points, except for ACC since it has very specific thresholds. Generally if you're going to change your gear strategy based on stat valuation, they're going to swing in the 50+ range depending on gear availability.

The third assumption is minor. The fourth is pretty major and already discussed above.

It mainly just suggests that optimizing for DTR is based around optimizing around these damage breakpoints, which nobody really knows where they come and how exactly they are implemented. But that the higher potency your abilities are, the easier it is to hit them, due to the nature of [potentially] truncated damage.

I'm mainly pulling on the work of people who are much better at this sort of thing than I am, and am assuming that the work of Eein (chocobro.com) and the like is fairly accurate. It all points to the weighting for DTR being majorly inferior for SMN vs. the work of someone like Valk, who draws a contrary conclusion, where the major distinction between the two classes is potency.

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Originally Posted by thealphafirm

Here comes Easymode with his douchey, elitist attitude. Yay!

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Its not elitist if he's refuting a point that has absolutely no data. Making a claim which has gone against everything that has already been spoken about and proven and providing ZERO data to back it up is whats dumb.

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

Its not elitist if he's refuting a point that has absolutely no data. Making a claim which has gone against everything that has already been spoken about and proven and providing ZERO data to back it up is whats dumb.

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Everything in your small little world of BLMs. There has already been a lot of work done that comes to completely different conclusion about SMN damage and DTR affect low potency abilities. Just because Valk says that DTR works one specific way for BLM stuff, doesn't make it true, and doesn't mean the same applies to everything, even if it were.

The simple assumption being refuted here is that everything works for same for everyone, as it does for BLMs, which is something that was stated very early on in this thread.

And to say this goes against 'everything that has already been spoken about and proven' in reference to Valk's work is super laughable. But keep it up, your contributions are as always, amusing.

Basically the DTR-DoT discussion on chocobro is inconclusive and he cites that more testing is needed. He stated that a SMN who did specific testing reported gaining +1 damage per tick for 30DTR.

Doesn't seem like much, but a sanity check needs to be done to ascertain what a player should expect from DTR. As follows:

1. For a moment, assume that SE is magic awesome and all stats are equally as strong as each other.
2. Assume 14 CRT for 1% CRT just because.
3. Ignore all baselines because this is super casual.
4. 42 CRT gets your 3% crit, which is an increase in damage of 1.5%.

How much DTR gets you 1.5% damage?

Assuming SE is magic awesome, DTR is itemized on items as roughly 67% of CRT. Therefore, 28 DTR should also result in 1.5% damage.

How much is 1.5% damage of a damage DoT? ...

Borrowing Puro's BLM numbers for a moment, 220p results in roughly 540 damage, so a 35p DoT tick should result in ~86 damage DoT ticks. 1.5% of that is 1.3 damage.


So for deltas of ~30 DTR, players should basically be expecting 1 damage on a tick. For clear results, you're going to have to test with +/- 80 DTR, which is a rather significant investment in resources.

The problem is that even then there's no conclusion on whether the damage is actually truncated or only visually so, and likelihood that the DTR could still push the tick damage over the next integer.

As such, it's still a lot of speculation and superstition at this point -- all centering on when the numbers are being truncated and for what purpose.

I cannot honestly say if I am more or less confused about the role of DTR in terms of item prioritization. Still, I'd think it is a lot less likely that damage is 'rolling over' between DoT ticks, than the possibility that it is. Occam's Razor would suggest that they are simply truncating the decimal during the damage application process, and by that merit alone, DTR is worse on lower potency abilities.

I've also never seen any bulk of work on SMN damage formulas that would conclude that DTR is anything more than half as beneficial as crit is.

But yes, admittedly, it is all speculation and theorycraft at this point, I suppose I'm merely representing the majority of efforts made to try to attempt to explain stat weights as I've been exposed to.

One person is using numbers based on testing, the other says nu-uh and uses speculative numbers. Guess who I'll believe for now.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

One person is using numbers based on testing, the other says nu-uh and uses speculative numbers. Guess who I'll believe for now.

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Using different sets of numbers based on testing, and coming to personal conclusions on each side. Neither of us did the testing we both make reference to, and neither of us can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are right. We're also comparing numbers established in different contexts, which is apples and oranges at best. Believe what you want of course, but you should probably make the effort to research the issue on your own.

Nobody has a definitive answer here, we can both admit that.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Everything in your small little world of BLMs.

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Unlike what you stated earlier, I do play multiple classes and broaden my horizons. Just because I post as a BLM doesn't mean I play specifically as a BLM. So you can attack me personally for now or you can test your theory come back when you have something useful to post to the contrary and stop assuming I use a specific member of this communities work. Ok pumpkin?

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Originally Posted by Ragnirok

Unlike what you stated earlier, I do play multiple classes and broaden my horizons. Just because I post as a BLM doesn't mean I play specifically as a BLM. So you can attack me personally for now or you can test your theory come back when you have something useful to post to the contrary and stop assuming I use a specific member of this communities work. Ok pumpkin?

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You're precious.

Do you have a thread or link that supports DTR is a % modifier?

I can't see % modifier being correct, granted my own SMN's gear is pathetic.

244 DTR => 78-87 Bio tick
266 DTR => 79-88 Bio tick

412 INT (because I leveled ACN for SCH)

isn't determination go into your attack power or healing power? i don't think it gives WAR or PLD more vitality.

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

isn't determination go into your attack power or healing power? i don't think it gives WAR or PLD more vitality.

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Ya it has no bearing on VIT at all. Why do you ask?

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Originally Posted by T0rin

I don't have any data to provide, I suppose all my 'learnings' have been anecdotal see: not math

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Just because Valk says that DTR works one specific way for BLM stuff [more than blm stuff], doesn't make it true, and doesn't mean the same applies to everything, even if it were.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

I cannot honestly say if I am more or less confused about the role of DTR in terms of item prioritization... Occam's Razor would suggest [if only it were simple]

But yes, admittedly, it is all speculation and theorycraft at this point.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Believe what you want of course, but you should probably make the effort to research the issue on your own.
Nobody has a definitive answer here, we can both admit that.

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I have read more math discussions about ffxiv than you can imagine, but I am glad to see you have not abandoned your condescending tone. I'll rephrase? One person is posting numbers and math with reasons and interpretations. You are posting things like seems to, anecdotal, speculation, and that you are confused about the role of DTR in gearing and then trying to math backwards to make the numbers fit your theory. . .

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Do you have a thread or link that supports DTR is a % modifier?

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There is no good consensus on the way DTR actually fits into the damage equation.

In all likelihood it's not a flat % modifier, but that doesn't actually matter, so it wasn't worth discussing in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I have read more math discussions about ffxiv than you can imagine, but I am glad to see you have not abandoned your condescending tone. I'll rephrase? One person is posting numbers and math with reasons and interpretations. You are posting things like seems to, anecdotal, speculation, and that you are confused about the role of DTR in gearing and then trying to math backwards to make the numbers fit your theory. . .

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Not my theories, I was just presenting conclusions of others that I had read. I assume you realize that all of this theorycrafting and 'math' that has actually been done is all one big reverse engineering process. I am not trying to make anything fit 'my' theory, I have no theory. The consensus that I have read seems to indicate that the impact of DTR are low potency skills is less beneficial than higher potency skills, which is what allows critical hit chance as a secondary stat to stand out from determination.

Nobody in this thread has done any conclusive work on the subject, even EasymodeX is regurgitating other people's analysis and his/her interpretations of them.

The simply fact is nobody knows the truth, we all only have anecdotal evidence, speculation and some level of reverse engineered math in order to support a _hypothesis_ about how DTR scales and affects the damage formulas. If it was an actual known thing, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

If anyone has been condescending here, it would be you. I've been fairly open minded about this whole process, and am completely accepting of a reality in which my understanding of how DTR works is completely off base. I am mainly going off of the work of others, and my understanding is the sum of various works on the subject. From all of the test data I've seen and what little testing I have done and seen first hand, it would seem that the benefit of DTR on damage output of low potency DoTs is fairly small. It could be that DTR scales as a percentage off the base potency, it could be that DTR is applied to the whole duration of a DoT, not each individual tick, hence the small boosts to damage ticks.

Either way, I was presenting my understanding of how it functions, and never have I said that my understanding is conclusive. Nothing currently known about damage math is conclusive, because it is all reverse engineered from in-game visual output.

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From all of the test data I've seen and what little testing I have done and seen first hand, it would seem that the benefit of DTR on damage output of low potency DoTs is fairly small.

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This isn't an accurate way of perceiving it. The benefit of any stat on a low potency attack is small compared to a high potency attack because higher potency amplifies the result of the stat change.

That DTR has a "small" effect on low potency DoTs is not surprising in the least. CRT has an equally small effect on low potency DoTs.

The real crux of this is whether or not the damage is actually being truncated per DoT per tick.

Even in the case that it is, DTR still has the same value as it has for all other classes -- except it has more awkward thresholds where you gain "0" value for a few points, then you gain the full accumulated value, etc. As a result it's more annoying to itemize for / deal with, but its general value is not diminished.

The only way a SMN is going to have meaningfully poorer returns from DTR is if other mechanics (such as the pet) result in DTR simply being ineffective or something (e.g. if pets had their own DTR, ignoring yours, which is unlikely).

Well, I'm generalizing, of course. The true cause of the visually noticeable difference in DoT damage is unknown to me. From my understanding, I assume it boils down to to truncated damage, simply on the merit of not having anything better to believe.

I would not be surprised to hear that DTR affects all skills 'equally', in that it applies a % modifier increase to damage dealt, but in the case of DoTs, the increase is spread out over the course of the spell. If that is the case, then not only is truncating an issue between the 'wide' break points between +0 and +1 damage applied to each tick, but the benefit of DTR would be spread over a longer period of time, further adding to the issue of truncated damage.

I guess I have a hard time believing that truncated damage can 'carry over' to the next DoT tick, I think the damage calculations would just be more simple than that.

DTR damage adds being spread over the course of the whole DoT would also explain why it 'seems' that it takes a good deal of DTR in order to increase DoT ticks by +1 damage, as opposed to a 'normal' spell that deals everything upfront. Assuming that is potentially the case, it would be pretty significant evidence for DTR being an inferior damage booster for DoT spells. I of course have no actual proof that this is the case, but it would help line up the reality of how much DTR is necessary to increase DoT damage by +1.

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the benefit of DTR would be spread over a longer period of time, further adding to the issue of truncated damage.

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This is false and completely irrelevant.

You're basically saying DoTs are bad because they deal damage over a long period of time.

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I guess I have a hard time believing that truncated damage can 'carry over' to the next DoT tick, I think the damage calculations would just be more simple than that.

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FF14 seems to have obnoxiously overcomplicated equations in certain ways. That aside, the concept of the DoT "remainders" carrying over is very minor and not a huge impact. It's the least of the 4 assumptions re: DoT tick truncation; there's no reason to get hung up on it.

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DTR damage adds being spread over the course of the whole DoT would also explain why it 'seems' that it takes a good deal of DTR in order to increase DoT ticks by +1 damage,

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The point is that this is no different than Int.

I could say that Int sucks for Summoners because it takes a lot of Int to "barely" add +1 or +2 damage to Summoner DoT ticks. Facepalm.

I think you're mis-interpreting what I'm trying to say.

If you had enough DTR to increase damage by 10%, Ruin would go from 80 potency to 88 potency. You cast ruin, you get 80+8 potency all delivered at once.

But a DoT has a potency value that is delivered on each server 'tick'. So, let's take Bio for instance, which has 40 potency. Perhaps the DTR increase of 10% is delivered over the course of the spell, so 10% of 40 potency over 18 seconds worth of ticks. (6) So, 0.6666666667 potency added per tick, as opposed to 4 (10% of 40) added to each tick.

Might help explain why it seems to take a larger than 'normal' (the amount necessary to see a damage bump on non-DoT skill) amount of DTR to show an increase of +1 on a DoT, and would make the problem of truncating DoTs an even bigger issue.

The thing about truncating, is that it is almost impossible to tell the difference between potentially rolled over truncated damage, and the simple RNG aspect of damage.

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Might help explain why it seems to take a larger than 'normal' (the amount necessary to see a damage bump on non-DoT skill) amount of DTR to show an increase of +1 on a DoT,

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This is completely expected.

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and would make the problem of truncating DoTs an even bigger issue.

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It's significantly less of an issue than you think it is even if it's true.

Well, it seems significant that you could potentially need 30+ DTR to show an increase of +1 damage on a DoT, and any minor optimization of secondary stats would essentially result in no change to DoT damage. There are way too many unknowns to say for sure, but is the damage add from DTR is being spread over the full course of a DoT as opposed to applying fully on each tick, that alone makes DTR pretty weak on DoTs, and especially weak on longer DoTs.

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Well, it seems significant that you could potentially need 30+ DTR to show an increase of +1 damage on a DoT,

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You need random(0..30) DTR to show the first +1 and then +"30"-ish for every +1 after that.

In addition, you have multiple DoTs with different potencies. Each would have a different cutoff for breaching truncation thresholds. As a result you would see incremental increases at smaller intervals of DTR. For example, every 5-15 DTR you'd see one of your DoTs increase in tick damage.

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any minor optimization of secondary stats would essentially result in no change to DoT damage.

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The stat weights you referenced lead to a major optimization of secondary stats away from DTR, on the order of ~60-120 depending on SMN itemization.

That's like 2-6 damage per DoT tick.

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if the damage add from DTR is being spread over the full course of a DoT [...] that alone makes DTR pretty weak on DoTs, and especially weak on longer DoTs.

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Not directly. Only from potential truncation of individual ticks.

Either way the statement is false: it's not "especially weak" on "longer" DoTs. It's possibly more difficult and less reliable to itemize for on DoTs with low potency per tick.

Took me 67 INT to make Bio tick from 65 low end to 78 low end. 20 DTR seemed like nothing happened with Bio.