Auto attack and possible consequences

For brevity sake I am a bit worried about losing the light strike buff and the very copious hate gain and tp gain from flurry. I wonder if these two aforementioned skills will still be available to us or axed completely.

What are your thoughts? Don't care? Do care? Worried (slightly) too?

AND WILL WE BE REIMBURSED GUILD MARKS?

Oh, but in all seriousness, I have a feeling the attack abilities will remain. They DO serve a purpose after all for just about all classes. Shadowfall I would be especially upset about losing. It's just too useful.

its one of my big worries about the system, there are other issues that i wonder how they will balance.
My guess is maybe they will make them cooldown skills, hopefully with a low cool down. hopefully they will also give tp, but right now, i dont really know.

I really really hope they wont kill the light heavy flurry pummel game mechanics, and similar things from other jobs. because THAT is what truely makes the disciplines unique.

I am hoping that they will change them to the stances that were mentioned before game came out. For example with light strike you automatically go into defensive posture auto attack. Once you gain the ability flurry once you have attacked with heavy strike it will switch to attack posture and start attacking with flurry.

I would like a toggle on off system for auto attack. Press 1 you toggle on basic attack, press 1 again you toggle it off, 2 would be another guild mark attack and 3 could be even another if you have it. Just toggle them on and off when you need to use one over the other.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

I would like a toggle on off system for auto attack. Press 1 you toggle on basic attack, press 1 again you toggle it off, 2 would be another guild mark attack and 3 could be even another if you have it. Just toggle them on and off when you need to use one over the other.

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that would be overly annoying, and almost no point in the auto attack in this case since you need to do flurry after a heavy strike or flurry. you would be constantly moving back and forth between different regular attacks

They've already stated that they are doing away with the manual attacks (non tp attacks)
They are the reason for the change to auto attack, as they cause a great deal of lag

I too hope they will have new abilities to replace the ones we purchased (yoshi has stated he doesn't want to take anything away from players)

I'm also hopeful that we will finally see the stance system because i feel pug has been cheated of it's core tank/dd mechanic

asuran fists, can i have it? yes, please!

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Originally Posted by Akuun

They've already stated that they are doing away with the manual attacks (non tp attacks)
They are the reason for the change to auto attack, as they cause a great deal of lag

I too hope they will have new abilities to replace the ones we purchased (yoshi has stated he doesn't want to take anything away from players)


I'm also hopeful that we will finally see the stance system because i feel pug has been cheated of it's core tank/dd mechanic

asuran fists, can i have it? yes, please!

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Id prefer active techniques for going from defensive to offensive, hit buff and wait style never really entertained me much, but its possible to have some entertaining implementations of stances

The two stances idea sounds nice, effectively replacing light strike and heavy strike. I'm guessing that abilities like Flurry will become passive and Pummel might switch to a TP buff with a short duration.

Defensive stance: increased evasion, increased counter chance (passive counter that will work like FFXI), increased enmity, bonus damage to "evasion counter attacks" like Jarring Strike

Offensive stance: increased accuracy, increased chance for Flurry, decreased enmity, bonus damage to TP attacks other than evasion counter attacks

All in all, I'm not worried - could even be a huge improvement.

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Originally Posted by Hubert

The two stances idea sounds nice, effectively replacing light strike and heavy strike. I'm guessing that abilities like Flurry will become passive and Pummel might switch to a TP buff with a short duration.

Defensive stance: increased evasion, increased counter chance (passive counter that will work like FFXI), increased enmity, bonus damage to "evasion counter attacks" like Jarring Strike

Offensive stance: increased accuracy, increased chance for Flurry, decreased enmity, bonus damage to TP attacks other than evasion counter attacks

All in all, I'm not worried - could even be a huge improvement.

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this is too simple for me, if anything id want it to go into a level of defense/offense thing like the man site has.
what your talking back will lead to a fairly inactive playstyle.
hopefully flurry will stay a skill, maybe you can only do it after certain conditions, or in a certain stance, but i would want to actively control it, defense isnt that important, most of the action in defensive mode comes from trying to tank/use reactive skills, but offensive role shouldnt be so automated.

more combos like heavy>flurry used to be please

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Originally Posted by Physic

this is too simple for me, if anything id want it to go into a level of defense/offense thing like the man site has.
what your talking back will lead to a fairly inactive playstyle.
hopefully flurry will stay a skill, maybe you can only do it after certain conditions, or in a certain stance, but i would want to actively control it, defense isnt that important, most of the action in defensive mode comes from trying to tank/use reactive skills, but offensive role shouldnt be so automated.

more combos like heavy>flurry used to be please

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But what that proposes seems to negate auto attack. since pretty much all I ever use is flurry now.

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Originally Posted by Eruantien

But what that proposes seems to negate auto attack. since pretty much all I ever use is flurry now.

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well i mean they may choose to get rid of flurry, i hope they dont but its a very real possibility, but they can still have things that work off of combos, like, if you land a critical you can use this attack, and follow it with some other attack. Or if you are going with stances, something where you can shift from one stance to another, but only one way, like heavy stance>flurry stance> critical stance, and some skills only available in certain stances, Basically something more involved than only 2 stances. and some reaction or combo skills available or more common from certain stances, much like evades will happen more with defensive stance.

Its my personal opinion of course, but i prefer a more involved battle style, closer to what we have now, than what monk was like in FFXI battle wise. It really was the least interactive class before abyssea, now i dont really know how it plays.

Im not really sure what thier specific goal was with auto attack, so i cant say if this fits their vision, but honestly i would rather have manual flurry than auto attack, also the 2 stance thing will negate the balance you could sometimes get with like light strike> heavy strike> flurry> light strike, you basically go pure offense or pure defense.

From what i remember reading in the blue print, i do not beleive they will be taking away any skills. I pretty sure they are going to rewamp some of the skills due to the addition of auto-attack.

The way i understood it, it should be working that auto-attack has a steady periodic dmg, while the skills has something extra to it. Lets say Heavy strick does 2x dmg, Light Strick gives evasion buff, Flurry gives extra threat but could be used only after heavy strick/flurry.
Stanima gage is going away, so the skills are to be reworked into instant use. But TP and cooldowns are going to stay (to prevent spamming of the big skills).

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Originally Posted by Physic

well i mean they may choose to get rid of flurry, i hope they dont but its a very real possibility, but they can still have things that work off of combos, like, if you land a critical you can use this attack, and follow it with some other attack. Or if you are going with stances, something where you can shift from one stance to another, but only one way, like heavy stance>flurry stance> critical stance, and some skills only available in certain stances, Basically something more involved than only 2 stances. and some reaction or combo skills available or more common from certain stances, much like evades will happen more with defensive stance.

Its my personal opinion of course, but i prefer a more involved battle style, closer to what we have now, than what monk was like in FFXI battle wise. It really was the least interactive class before abyssea, now i dont really know how it plays.

Im not really sure what thier specific goal was with auto attack, so i cant say if this fits their vision, but honestly i would rather have manual flurry than auto attack, also the 2 stance thing will negate the balance you could sometimes get with like light strike> heavy strike> flurry> light strike, you basically go pure offense or pure defense.

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in that case I agree, more reactive skills are needed to keep the battle system fresh. more when you evade, when you miss when you crit type skills

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Originally Posted by AmnRahtep

From what i remember reading in the blue print, i do not beleive they will be taking away any skills. I pretty sure they are going to rewamp some of the skills due to the addition of auto-attack.

The way i understood it, it should be working that auto-attack has a steady periodic dmg, while the skills has something extra to it. Lets say Heavy strick does 2x dmg, Light Strick gives evasion buff, Flurry gives extra threat but could be used only after heavy strick/flurry.
Stanima gage is going away, so the skills are to be reworked into instant use. But TP and cooldowns are going to stay (to prevent spamming of the big skills).

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That kinda goes against the whole reason for them wanting to implement auto-attack.
The manual attacks require a lot more back and forth between client and server, where as auto-attack is like this.
Client: I am engaged with x target.
Server: You attack for x amount.
Server: You attack for x amount.
Server: You attack for x amount.
Server: You attack for x amount.
Client I have disengaged x target.

The current system has client sending attacks for every server result.
It's very inefficient from a bandwidth and processing aspect.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

That kinda goes against the whole reason for them wanting to implement auto-attack.
The manual attacks require a lot more back and forth between client and server, where as auto-attack is like this.
Client: I am engaged with x target.
Server: You attack for x amount.
Server: You attack for x amount.
Server: You attack for x amount.
Server: You attack for x amount.
Client I have disengaged x target.

The current system has client sending attacks for every server result.
It's very inefficient from a bandwidth and processing aspect.

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uhhhh other games have no problem with this, i think they are instituting auto attack more to appease people who dont want to press buttons, or overpress the buttons.
I hear wow, you almost never auto attack, Aion you were almost always using skills non stop, and it was able to be recreated even by private server users. Psu/pso had instant attacks (though this only had like 5 people in an instance in a time so i will let it slide) guild wars, was basically fast paced skill driven.

I just dont think thier server problems are related to auto attack, or if they are, its a problem that other companies have solved.

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Originally Posted by Physic

uhhhh other games have no problem with this, i think they are instituting auto attack more to appease people who dont want to press buttons, or overpress the buttons.
I hear wow, you almost never auto attack, Aion you were almost always using skills non stop, and it was able to be recreated even by private server users. Psu/pso had instant attacks (though this only had like 5 people in an instance in a time so i will let it slide) guild wars, was basically fast paced skill driven.

I just dont think thier server problems are related to auto attack, or if they are, its a problem that other companies have solved.

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WoW has auto attacks, and they go off whether you're performing another action or not, just like ffxi, doac, lineage (1 & 2) and probably 90% of other mmos on the market.
Now lets not forget DDO where you simply click the mouse button as fast as humanly possible to attack as fast as you can
as for games that do these tasks client side it opens things up to third party utilities that seriously disrupt game balance
as for ffxiv the manual attack system offered very little for what it did
if you prefer button mashing cool, i personally don't care for it, and find it to be a hindrance on communication for players not using a chat client

We still don't know what other changes are in store for the updated combat system, all we do know is auto attacks are coming, so till then, it's all just speculation, people fearing the worse, and wishful thinking.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

WoW has auto attacks, and they go off whether you're performing another action or not, just like ffxi, doac, lineage (1 & 2) and probably 90% of other mmos on the market.
Now lets not forget DDO where you simply click the mouse button as fast as humanly possible to attack as fast as you can
as for games that do these tasks client side it opens things up to third party utilities that seriously disrupt game balance
as for ffxiv the manual attack system offered very little for what it did
if you prefer button mashing cool, i personally don't care for it, and find it to be a hindrance on communication for players not using a chat client

We still don't know what other changes are in store for the updated combat system, all we do know is auto attacks are coming, so till then, it's all just speculation, people fearing the worse, and wishful thinking.

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i know they have auto attacks, but people are supposedly inputing skills as fast as we can input autoattacks and skills with the stamina system. I never really played wow, so that is hearsay, but i can tell you in aion, i almost never saw an auto attack unless i went afk. In guild wars while it had an auto attack, i was constantly pressing skills.

I dont so much prefer button mashing as i prefer controlling my charachters actions, for me the manual system was under utilized by many people. For pugilist i would say manual attacking did a lot, this may be because i low man, or solo often, and aim for the most difficult monsters which i get good sp for. But there is a huge difference in control and options between light strike, heavy strike, pummel, and flurry.

I do agree that it makes it hard to communicate in battle with text, but I dont want the game to be built around my typing speed, because to be honest, the better we get at a game, the less we need to talk.

Basically i prefer for the player to be constantly making descions, and having input in the battle, some prefer to sit back, give a broad strategy and interject rarely, i think that this should probably come down to a class selection difference, they should build different classes with different mechanics, that appeal to different types of players. either that or create an optional gambit like system, and a direct control system.

seem like the only ways to appease both player types.


that said, if it comes down to classes have different involvement levels, im saying i think pugilist should be one of the more involved classes. come on its martial arts, it should be a lot about technique, and adapting and reacting to your enemy.

I did a lot of testing on my pug, I tested all 4 attacks on mobs solo, and the conclusion always came up the same for manual attacks, heavy strike, flurry, flurry, flurry, flurry, flurry, victimize or 3x1000tp attacks
the problem with other attacks is the trade off, a little more tp or evasion and defense vs much faster kills
keep in mind my evasion setup with a regular weapon is 198, defense gear showed to be decent for mobs with high accuracy (which is nearly all since we are screwed on dex for now

mashing 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 4 5
that's the core of pug right now, sad but true

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Originally Posted by Physic

i know they have auto attacks, but people are supposedly inputing skills as fast as we can input autoattacks and skills with the stamina system. I never really played wow, so that is hearsay, but i can tell you in aion, i almost never saw an auto attack unless i went afk. In guild wars while it had an auto attack, i was constantly pressing skills.

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These games also depend on nothing but cool down timers, ffxiv has up to 3 conditions just for using an ability
Stamina, cool down, mp or trigger (evasion, block etc), tp (tanaka went way overboard on the combat maths as well)

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I do agree that it makes it hard to communicate in battle with text, but I dont want the game to be built around my typing speed, because to be honest, the better we get at a game, the less we need to talk.

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Communication in a real strategy is key, my LS can down many of the world nm in mins because we are constantly communicating in chat. This is easier when soloing of doing low man, and leves are a joke with no more challenge than deciding who pulls.

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Basically i prefer for the player to be constantly making descions, and having input in the battle, some prefer to sit back, give a broad strategy and interject rarely, i think that this should probably come down to a class selection difference, they should build different classes with different mechanics, that appeal to different types of players. either that or create an optional gambit like system, and a direct control system.

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Button mashing, or lack of it, plays no part in strategy, managing your stamina, mp, tp etc is game basics,
most seem to have trouble just doing that.

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seem like the only ways to appease both player types.

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If the game had started with auto-attacks we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
I doubt we will see an option for manual or auto as it would create a balance issue.

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that said, if it comes down to classes have different involvement levels, im saying i think pugilist should be one of the more involved classes. come on its martial arts, it should be a lot about technique, and adapting and reacting to your enemy.

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I think you're confusing real life with a video game.
Technique and adapting doesn't mean you have to spam attacks to achieve.

Best suggestion I can give you for now is wait for 1.18 then decide if this game is for you, if not then I'm sure you'll find some game that meets your criteria.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

These games also depend on nothing but cool down timers, ffxiv has up to 3 conditions just for using an ability
Stamina, cool down, mp or trigger (evasion, block etc), tp (tanaka went way overboard on the combat maths as well)



Communication in a real strategy is key, my LS can down many of the world nm in mins because we are constantly communicating in chat. This is easier when soloing of doing low man, and leves are a joke with no more challenge than deciding who pulls.



Button mashing, or lack of it, plays no part in strategy, managing your stamina, mp, tp etc is game basics,
most seem to have trouble just doing that.



If the game had started with auto-attacks we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
I doubt we will see an option for manual or auto as it would create a balance issue.



I think you're confusing real life with a video game.
Technique and adapting doesn't mean you have to spam attacks to achieve.

Best suggestion I can give you for now is wait for 1.18 then decide if this game is for you, if not then I'm sure you'll find some game that meets your criteria.

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Im just saying the vision i would want for the future of pug, last time i checked it was still unknown. You feel like your chosen pattern is the best for you, i prefer to mix it up, i think it would be better we both had the option to play how we feel.
I basically think there is the type that prefers to sit back and adjust the strategy of their charachter, and the type that wants to be involved, i prefer to be involved. For my playstyle, i choose when to put up a defensive buff, when to just do a quick attack for tp gain, when to go into the heavy flurry style.

Basically i think player interactivity with battle is entertaining, you may disagree, we'll see, But best suggestion i can give you is wait for 1.18 then decide if pug is for you, if not, im sure you ll find something that meets your criteria.

Thank god for auto attack. I doubt they'll refund guild marks lol

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Originally Posted by Hubert

The two stances idea sounds nice, effectively replacing light strike and heavy strike. I'm guessing that abilities like Flurry will become passive and Pummel might switch to a TP buff with a short duration.

Defensive stance: increased evasion, increased counter chance (passive counter that will work like FFXI), increased enmity, bonus damage to "evasion counter attacks" like Jarring Strike

Offensive stance: increased accuracy, increased chance for Flurry, decreased enmity, bonus damage to TP attacks other than evasion counter attacks

All in all, I'm not worried - could even be a huge improvement.

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I would be very much in favor of this. Might be what they do, aside from this I don't see how they would transition our light strike/heavy/flurry over into the new system. Overall i'm still a bit on the fence about autoattack, I don't think its completely essential to have, but both systems work. The only two big things that bother me about the current system is the latency in attacks and not being able to easily chat in group. Just so long as we never see autoattack > make sandwich > weapon skill > afk > weapon skill again i'll be alright, I doubt we'll see it again, but would loathe it if we did.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

For brevity sake I am a bit worried about losing the light strike buff and the very copious hate gain and tp gain from flurry. I wonder if these two aforementioned skills will still be available to us or axed completely.

What are your thoughts? Don't care? Do care? Worried (slightly) too?

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As a main class archer, I can sympathize with your concerns. Pgl is another class that will be hit hard by adding AA, just by the way it's skills work. I'm hoping that AA is an option, rather than forced, especially since the devs refer to it as a "mode".

too many posts here that i would like to quote, too much time consuming, so i just put in few of my cents here.

i have played lots of games that are on the market in indefenate OBT, or the games that are free to play but to have e-shop for all the nice items you would want and can't get any other way. i have also plaied GW:factions, WoW (all the way from obt), Aion, L1 & 2. and i say that all of them are set up with auto-attack plus instant cust skills/spells. as it was mentioned above, the AAs do not intefear with any of the skills you are using. you engage in battle and they go off on their on regardless you want them or not. in WoW i was playing hunter, i had a set bar of skills i was using in a chain the way i like it and wanted. AA was shooting on its on, good steady dmg, while i keep clicking just my skills when CD is up. and in L1 the strategy was to buy a polymorph scroll of mob that can swing its arm the fastest it possibly can and then you just start clicking on your spell as fast you can click on that mouse.
So the idea of AA + instant casting in no way should be affecting the server load. and if it will. then they would have to go back to basic programming and figure out what they wrote in the program that does not need to be there in the first place.

This idea of using using a skill everytime you want to hit something i saw only for the first time here in FFXIV. it surprised me to be honest, it was something new. it is something you can work with defently. if they really want, they can even keep it this way, but the Stanima bar has go to go. I am all up for keep on hitting skills every time i want to hit the mob, but it still should be converted into instant casting w/CD.

monk stance in ffxi?

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Originally Posted by Eruantien

I am hoping that they will change them to the stances that were mentioned before game came out. For example with light strike you automatically go into defensive posture auto attack. Once you gain the ability flurry once you have attacked with heavy strike it will switch to attack posture and start attacking with flurry.

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BRILLIANT
The only way it should be..