New BLM, rotations questions and advice

I hit BLM 50 today and grinded my way through with fates, so I got very little experience with my rotations (Except on bosses in fates) but I have been practicing on dummies all day.

For single rotation what I do is:

Thunder 2 > Fire 3 > Fire, Fire, Fire, Fire > Blizzard 3 > repeat

I use firestarter procs and thundercloud procs as necessary.

Now for AoE, which I am having difficulty with, this is what I've been going with so far

Blizz 3 > Fire 3 > Flare > Convert/Swift > Flare > Transpose > Blizz 2 x2

I am not really sure what to do after the blizz 2 or even if it's optimum, any help would be appreciated. And yeah, I've read the rotation guide but was just wondering if this was any good.

AE:
B3 --> mana tick --> say monosyllabic word --> Flare --> Flare --> Transpose --> B2 --> B2 --> repeat from mana tick.

Until they patch it anyway.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

AE:
B3 --> mana tick --> say monosyllabic word --> Flare --> Flare --> Transpose --> B2 --> B2 --> repeat from mana tick.

Until they patch it anyway.

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Doesn't astral fire stacks affect flare? wouldn't it be better to get astral fire before using flare?

Ppl wh suggest using flare glitch under umbral 3 clearly does not parse dps. Those flares for me hits for 450 while normal astral 3 flares hits for 1200.

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Originally Posted by TimeDilation

Ppl wh suggest using flare glitch under umbral 3 clearly does not parse dps. Those flares for me hits for 450 while normal astral 3 flares hits for 1200.

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It hits for 450. What does your fire III hit for?
Even if it's more, Flare hits multiple targets for that damage and this is about AoE usage. It doesn't drain your mana under Umbral Ice so you'll get another Flare doing the Astral damage right after.
So yea, your flare hits 3 targets for 1350 and then you get a 1200 x 3 flare right after. It only replaces Fire III to convert your stacks but has higher base potency and an aoe effect.

If you choose to use a glitch is up to your own discretion, but the dps is better.

I was playing around with this last night in a couple of WP's.

It seems for me what worked the best was F3------->F2---->F2----->F2(stop at just under 1k mana)---->Flare

Now this portion is more or less dependent on your cooldowns, if you have convert, convert and Flare again, then Transpose.

If you don't have CD's ready then I would suggest Transposing to get some mana back. Personally I like to have my Flares have a full stack of AF3 so I usually use B3 right after Transpose and then Refresh on the above.

Another pointer I heard in another thread which I thought was smart and worth mentionning.

If your last fire happens to trigger firestarter. go B3 -> T2 -> transpose -> THEN firestarter F3 , that way you get a modifier in damage for the starting F3 in the chain. But only if you finished your rotation with a pending firestarter proc.

although, I'm not sure this will let you benefit from the subsequent quick fire1 .. maybe someone can confirm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

AE:
B3 --> mana tick --> say monosyllabic word --> Flare --> Flare --> Transpose --> B2 --> B2 --> repeat from mana tick.

Until they patch it anyway.

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I tried doing it this way and few times I got the tick and few times I didn't, is there a way to know when to cast flare?

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

It hits for 450. What does your fire III hit for?
Even if it's more, Flare hits multiple targets for that damage and this is about AoE usage. It doesn't drain your mana under Umbral Ice so you'll get another Flare doing the Astral damage right after.
So yea, your flare hits 3 targets for 1350 and then you get a 1200 x 3 flare right after. It only replaces Fire III to convert your stacks but has higher base potency and an aoe effect.

If you choose to use a glitch is up to your own discretion, but the dps is better.

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Fire 2 deals more damage than the glitched flares. Please parse your dps first than spreading this myth that glitching chain flares does the most aoe dps. It doesnt.

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Originally Posted by TimeDilation

Fire 2 deals more damage than the glitched flares. Please parse your dps first than spreading this myth that glitching chain flares does the most aoe dps. It doesnt.

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You're still comparing the wrong spells....
Also, only the Flare that converts your Umbral stacks to Fire is a glitch because it doesn't drain your mana. Quick casting a second spell is not a glitch. I hope you're not under that impression since you're even talking about Fire II.
Fire III(instead of Flare) --> Flare is still better dps than Fire II.

Don't get used to the double flare bug they already confirmed it as a bug and it will be getting fixed.

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Originally Posted by Taerra

Another pointer I heard in another thread which I thought was smart and worth mentionning.

If your last fire happens to trigger firestarter. go B3 -> T2 -> transpose -> THEN firestarter F3 , that way you get a modifier in damage for the starting F3 in the chain. But only if you finished your rotation with a pending firestarter proc.

although, I'm not sure this will let you benefit from the subsequent quick fire1 .. maybe someone can confirm

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Pretty sure in this case when you use the firestarter proc you enter the full GCD with the animation as well you might not be able to chain it properly, I will test tonight but I think it won't fall under the fast fire 1.

We have a Blm in just full DL/Relic+1 who can out hate a full valor/allagan/relic+1 PLD with non-glitch flare rotatons on Turn 4. It's pretty amazing for AoE dps.

So disregarding the Glitch. What is the best form of AOE dps now? Using Fire II or not? And what after transpose? Nothing? Blizz III? Blizz IIX2?

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Originally Posted by Zeronic

So disregarding the Glitch. What is the best form of AOE dps now? Using Fire II or not? And what after transpose? Nothing? Blizz III? Blizz IIX2?

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I prefer the one listed in the 20+ page BLM Rotation thread

Fire III > Flare > Transpose > Blizz II > Blizz II > repeat

Once you get the timing right Fire III and Flare will both be half cast and you'll get the tick of mana as soon as your gcd is up to cast 2 Blizz II's. Only downside is you're in melee

aoe rotation, fire 3 > flare > transpose > b2 x3 > fire 3 > flare > transpose, repeat from transpose. when convert is up, convert > swift cast > flare after flare in rotation. why I do b2 3 times instead of 2 is the casting time decrease lag, I assured to get it for both fire 3 and flare if I do b2 3 times instead of 2, if I do it 2 times I will get the cast time increase for flare but not fire 3 most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Ascalapha

aoe rotation, fire 3 > flare > transpose > b2 x3 > fire 3 > flare > transpose, repeat from transpose. when convert is up, convert > swift cast > flare after flare in rotation. why I do b2 3 times instead of 2 is the casting time decrease lag, I assured to get it for both fire 3 and flare if I do b2 3 times instead of 2, if I do it 2 times I will get the cast time increase for flare but not fire 3 most of the time.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zeronic

So disregarding the Glitch. What is the best form of AOE dps now? Using Fire II or not? And what after transpose? Nothing? Blizz III? Blizz IIX2?

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See for me I actually prefer Fire 3 > Fire 2 (3 or 4 times) > Flare > Convert/Swiftcast> Flare> Transpose > B3 > Blizzard 1 > Repeat
If no Convert available then Flare > Transpose > B3 > B1 > Repeat

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Originally Posted by Sir_Maxwell

I prefer the one listed in the 20+ page BLM Rotation thread

Fire III > Flare > Transpose > Blizz II > Blizz II > repeat

Once you get the timing right Fire III and Flare will both be half cast and you'll get the tick of mana as soon as your gcd is up to cast 2 Blizz II's. Only downside is you're in melee

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THIS, A MILLION TIMES THIS. So many people disagree with this. Although most are off with the timing. I'm glad another one uses this technique as well. -pats on back-

Single Target

ThunderII > Fire III > Fire + Procs until 600ish mana > Blizard III > Thunder II >Fire III > Fire III (speed proc from astral IceIII) > repeat with fire

AOE
Fire III > Raging strikes >Fire II > Fire II > Fire II > Flare > Convert > Swiftcast > Flare > Transpose > Blizzard II > Blizzard II > repeat without double flare

both of these rotations have worked great for me.

950 or so is the limit where you can cast one last Fire and still have enough mana left to cast Thunder immediately after Blizzard 3 from the top of my head.

I'm curious, does the amount of mp you burn on a Flare make a difference in damage?

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Originally Posted by Sadana

I'm curious, does the amount of mp you burn on a Flare make a difference in damage?

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No, remaining MP before casting doesn't impact the damage of Flare. I did a quick and dirty google earlier and found a post stating you need at least 266 MP to cast Flare - useful to know if you're planning to use Ethers.

As for single target rotation from the OP, you could likely fit in another Fire I and then use Thunder instead of Thunder II, but you risk missing the second MP tick due to Thunder being a shorter cast time. Some BLMs meld a small amount of Piety (251 was the magic number, off the top of my head - likely requires SCH party buff) to let them get a 5th Fire and still use Thunder II.

Flare is slightly affected by MP, but it is so little it doesn't matter. Based on multiple parses, as broken as they may be, the best AOE rotation is Fire 3> Fire 2 (x3)> Flare> Convert >Flare >Transpose> Blizzard 2 (x2)> evaluate> repeat. Instead of using Convert a second time if you need the damage, use an ether. IF things are still alive after this, a few things need to be done, check your DPS and/or your party members or repeat the rotation again leaving out the convert>flare part.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taerra

Another pointer I heard in another thread which I thought was smart and worth mentionning.

If your last fire happens to trigger firestarter. go B3 -> T2 -> transpose -> THEN firestarter F3 , that way you get a modifier in damage for the starting F3 in the chain. But only if you finished your rotation with a pending firestarter proc.

although, I'm not sure this will let you benefit from the subsequent quick fire1 .. maybe someone can confirm

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Holy smokes batman. Thats a really good idea.

You wouldn't get a quick Fire 1, because as you said, you're Transposing to take advantage of Astral for your Firestarter. Personally, I prefer just to wait a second on my last Fire to see if I get a proc then cast Fire3 or Bliz3 as able.

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Originally Posted by point09micron

You wouldn't get a quick Fire 1, because as you said, you're Transposing to take advantage of Astral for your Firestarter.

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Quick Fire 1? You finish casting Fire 1 in half of a GCD, but you still have to wait for the rest of the GCD before starting your next cast. That would have no effect on your total damage (just a small burst increase).

You should cast a quick Fire 3 here instead. Fire 3 normally takes 3.5s to cast, but a quick cast will bring it down to 1.75s, which is still lower than the GCD. Therefore, your single-target rotation should start with two quick Fire 3's whenever you have a UI3 buff.

This is known as the double-dip mechanic, because the second Fire 3 gets the advantages of both UI3 (quick cast) and AF3 (+80% damage). This also applies to the "glitched" double Flare.

Sometimes latency can cause you to miss a double-dip, but if you can pull it off then you should.

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Originally Posted by O-Deka-K

Quick Fire 1? You finish casting Fire 1 in half of a GCD, but you still have to wait for the rest of the GCD before starting your next cast. That would have no effect on your total damage (just a small burst increase).

You should cast a quick Fire 3 here instead. Fire 3 normally takes 3.5s to cast, but a quick cast will bring it down to 1.75s, which is still lower than the GCD. Therefore, your single-target rotation should start with two quick Fire 3's whenever you have a UI3 buff.

This is known as the double-dip mechanic, because the second Fire 3 gets the advantages of both UI3 (quick cast) and AF3 (+80% damage). This also applies to the "glitched" double Flare.

Sometimes latency can cause you to miss a double-dip, but if you can pull it off then you should.

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And double dipping is exactly what they were talking about, but as point09micron said, you can't get a double dipped Fire 1 after Transposing to AF and using Firestarter afterwards. It's also not worth it to use a second Fire 3 after the switch from UI3 as far as I know. Discounting situations where you have to burst something down inside ten seconds or so, of course.

The glitch in the double Flare has nothing to do with double dipping itself, but instead with the fact that you can even use two of them in a row without Convert or potions. You could argue that getting a mana tick after using a spell that drains all your mana and puts you in a 0 mana regen state only because the switch is delayed is a clever use of game mechanics, but it doesn't matter if it was never meant to work that way.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

And double dipping is exactly what they were talking about, but as point09micron said, you can't get a double dipped Fire 1 after Transposing to AF and using Firestarter afterwards. It's also not worth it to use a second Fire 3 after the switch from UI3 as far as I know. Discounting situations where you have to burst something down inside ten seconds or so, of course.

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Okay, but why? The only advantage to a double-dipped Fire 1 that I can see is that it uses less mana and gives one more chance of getting a Firestarter proc. The lowered mana usage could also allow for one more Fire 1 at the end of your rotation, but that depends on your mana pool.

I'll have to parse this out to check.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

The glitch in the double Flare has nothing to do with double dipping itself, but instead with the fact that you can even use two of them in a row without Convert or potions.

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My point wasn't that the glitch is caused by double-dipping. I was trying to say that the second Flare also gets the advantages of double-dippping, including the +80% damage buff.

I was doing some initial damage parsing over the weekend, and so far I've found that the best AoE rotations are the "glitched" double-Flare rotation and a Fire 2 rotation that includes Blizzard 2 and Flares (see Dyechamp's post above - I didn't do Raging Strikes for parsing though).

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Originally Posted by O-Deka-K

Okay, but why? The only advantage to a double-dipped Fire 1 that I can see is that it uses less mana and gives one more chance of getting a Firestarter proc. The lowered mana usage could also allow for one more Fire 1 at the end of your rotation, but that depends on your mana pool.

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I was going to do some testing about this, but I noticed I couldn't get a second Hasted Fire 3 off no matter hard I tried. I can get everything else hasted after Fire 3 except another Fire 3 for some strange reason. I even tested Flare - F3 for fun and I got that Fire 3 hasted every single time, as well as rest of the fire spells.

I did do a couple quick tests in the end, with the slow second Fire 3 and everything, and F3 - F1 was 15-25 DPS ahead of F3 - F3 depending on the amount Firestarter procs. You do in fact get to cast an extra Fire, regardless of you race and mana pool as you can just cast Thunder instead of Thunder 2; their DPS is virtually identical, if you cast Fire instead of Fire 3.

If you're talking about getting double fast F3's, I do that all the time. It's a matter of learning the timing - just like double flares. When I feel lazy I juts B3 - F3 - F3. There are two spots i can use thunder, and I always have mp if I need it.

If you're doing a WP SR with a Bard, have them use Ballad during trash mobs.

Your AoE combo in this set up should be: Fire III> Flare > Blizzard III (repeat).

This gives you the most potency per GCD as far as AoEing trash mobs is concerned; more than a BRD singing you Requiem with the old "standard" AoE combo. Your fights will go much faster this way as in the time it takes to get the damage out of 3 Fire II's you just need to cast one Flare.

The breakdown: Fire III gives you Astral Fire III for increased damage. Flare is big damage but uses all MP and you have no MP regeneration in AF. Ballad will give you just enough MP to cast a Blizzard III to get a big chunk of MP. Fire III to set up Flare again and repeat. No need to use transpose after Flare this way (10s recast is quite limiting) and you do more total damage in less casts which means faster mob deaths.

However with this big increase in your damage you'll be getting more hate so be sure to inform your tank of your rotation so they know to spam Flash whenever possible. This won't be an issue for them because of Ballad already being up to increase your damage. If you have a WHM for a healer they can also now cast Holy whenever the tank doesn't need a cure without much need to watch their MP. Monsters die very fast in this method, faster than with Foe Requiem :). Added incentive: After fights Ballad is already up so there's no need to waste 3 seconds casting it in between fights which means faster pulls as well.