Let's talk cross class and break the game. PGL>MNK? Also, endgame craft prices

You heard me. You've been in a party that has had 2 melee in it before. Let's forget DRG for a second and say it's 2 monks.

The immediate problem with Monks is that Dragon Kick does not stack, so you effectively lose dps by having more than one monk in the party. To rectify this, having the second monk go Pugilist instead and bring [Raging Strikes] and [Blood for Blood] will see a huge damage boost. Dragon Kick should still be proccing from the other monk, but now you have a PGL that has a 50% damage boost during a 20 second timeperiod. Fifty. percent.

By going PGL you lose Shoulder Tackle and Howling Fist, but you can also support the party more. Along with casting Mantra to assist healers you could cast Virus if a summoner/blackmage is not present in the party.

To replace the loss of shoulder tackle simply cast [Venomous Strike] for a ranged attack on the way to your new target, don't worry about the stun as the second monk's Shoulder Tackle should have that covered. There is not much that can replace howling fist as an off GCD ability though from what I can tell, however, I feel that a 20% damage boost for 20 seconds that has the same recharge as perfect balance is more useful than howling fist which has a very long recharge to begin with.

Come on, look at your class, and see how you could mix it up with cross class.
http://xivdb.com/?skilltree/Pugilist <-- replace the Pugilist with the name of your class (not job)

I also would like to look into breaking the pentameld system a bit and play with different builds, but the problem with doing that is that a full set of endgame crafted gear costs MILLIONS OF GIL. So if I wanted to see how a PGL healer could fare, I would need to be richer than Tom Hanks to try it out! What a shame.

How about you, have you thought of any good uses for classes (not jobs) and other ways to play with the game's builds a bit.

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The immediate problem with Monks is that Dragon Kick does not stack

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Aye, it is a problem but it's not one that can be rectified without raising the buff/debuff limit- Summoners each apply their own DoT debuffs, this means with multiple summoners the debuff limit is hit very quickly. In some fates it can be nearly impossible to land debuffs on the enemy because of the limit. So while they could very easily fix the problem by having each monk apply its own debuffs, it would end up aggrivating an already annoying problem.

sounds good actually but in a scenario where you have multiple adds to deal with how would the loss of DK help the PUG?

Fists of Fire is MNK exclusive. 20% damage increase from raging strikes is only up for 20 seconds out of 180 seconds, or 1/9 of the time for a 20% increase, while FOF is up 100% of the time for a 5% increase. Stack that with the additional losses of main stat and being unable to equip your relic/+1 (some people have Allagan, most don't), and it's just generally a bad idea. You also lose your only gap closer dropping your MNK crystal. On top of all this, you also lose any AoE capability that you had from Rockbreaker, but that's a minor loss to suffer.

Generally a bad idea.

Why not just have an agreement with the other monk. One has the DK up at all times and bootshine in between, the other bootshines all the times? With pgl you lose your relic if you have it and you lose the stat bonus from monk soul crystal.

I don't get the issue. If both MNKs are doing their rotation right, Dragon Kick will always be up, whether the 1st or 2nd MNK is applying it.

Lol a non-stacking dragon kick debuff somehow managed to nerf damage? WHAT?

Also the Soul Shard from PUG to MNK gives you a few bonus attributes, which is always welcomed.

Its just a downside that the only useful stuff you can take from other classes as cross-skills are buffs (or 95% of them)

Classes are just pointless outside of niche solo play (and I probably wouldn't make an exception for that, seeing as solo content is generally easy).

In 1.0 you could cross a lot of skills, so you could go tanky pgl kinda, but in 2.0 the lack of available cross skills make classes feel like inferior versions of jobs, instead of a jack of all trades.

I really would like them to make most skills available on classes.

Run PGL and take my relic off? Yeah no.

If you have 1 monk doing dragon kick full time, surely the other monk/s can use Bootshine for a DPS increase...

Dragon Kick = 150potency
Bootshine = 195potency (130 + guaranteed crit = 50% increase)

So yeah, the other monk gets close to 30% increase in damage for that GCD compared to the other monk who his now Dragon Kick Bitch.

Even then, one of the MNKs has to do it a/w, whether is the only one or not.
If that helps increasing the global damage output I don't see the issue, unless your epeen is going to hurt.

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Originally Posted by Noroi_Kisaragi

the problem with doing that is that a full set of endgame crafted gear costs MILLIONS OF GIL. So if I wanted to see how a PGL healer could fare, I would need to be richer than Tom Hanks to try it out!

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Well considering you want to 5x meld which even if you knew exactly what you wanted stat wise would cost a lot of gil and you will lose materia in the process of attempting which is already a pretty large investment.

Second Pug is a DPS class, just because you found a way to equip healing spells does not mean this is optimal. If you want to try this however you are going to have to circumvent your job, class, role, and gear as there is no gear for Pug that has healing stats applied to them.

With all of that being said I am confused as to why you are surprised about the cost involved here. What you want to do is 100% optional and not how the system was designed, did you really think you could do this on the cheap side?

Tested on the level 50 striking dummy with the help of a friend w/ parser.

My equipment was Ifrit's Claws because relic can't be used on PGL, and because i don't have allagan wep.

PGL DPS was 93, MNK DPS was 83. This was without using any positional advantages, attacking only the front side, and only parsed during the full duration of Blood for Blood.

MNK did 1.5k damage total, whereas PGL did 2k damage total.

PGL setup is
>Straight shot and internal release for crit
>Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes for dmg

PGL beats MNK DPS in burst only. I believe that in Turn 5, Twitania, Burst DPS matters, so therefore, PGL is far more viable than MNK in that specific turn. You lose fists of fire and shoulder tackle, that's it. Shoulder Tackle isnt really THAT Necessary in turn 5, and your overall dps hurts, but it spikes like hell during the burst parts where it matters.

However, to even take advantage of this, you'll need allagan wep OR the ilvl 90 primal wep from 2.1 anyway, so it won't matter for most of you guys.

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Originally Posted by Flionheart

Classes are just pointless outside of niche solo play (and I probably wouldn't make an exception for that, seeing as solo content is generally easy).

In 1.0 you could cross a lot of skills, so you could go tanky pgl kinda, but in 2.0 the lack of available cross skills make classes feel like inferior versions of jobs, instead of a jack of all trades.

I really would like them to make most skills available on classes.

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I know of a group that runs a thaumaturge on coil because it can output insane dps, granted it has allagan weapon and gear but can with all buffs on do 2100 fire III's, just like in 1.0 some classes dominate jobs this is 1 of them.

I would suggest that instead of spending millions of gil, get a crafting job that makes armor for your chosen class to 50, and also perhaps goldsmith for your accessories and make your own spirit bind gear. I say this because you could make some one star gear to spirit bind for your character, then just run something like CM a bunch of times.

Yes it's boring, but you can get alot of materia that way. Also, you get tomes for completing the instance. Using all that, you can either craft your desired two star crafted gear yourself, or have someone do it for you. By using your own tomes to buy the needed potash, animal fats or cokes/etc you don't have to spend money. Yes you would have to buy the mats for the gear you are crafting to spirit bind, but then again, you will have alot of extra materia that you may not want to use that you can sell to replace that gil.

I do this often and it's how I finally got all my crafted accessories.

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Originally Posted by Flionheart

In 1.0 you could cross a lot of skills, so you could go tanky pgl kinda

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We used a pugilist tank very effectively on misers mistress in 1.0 ( for people who didn't play 1.0 the aurum vale was a tougher dungeon back then)
Our LS main tank found it really enjoyable to tank it as pgl and the extra dmg output was noticable.

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PGL beats MNK DPS in burst only. I believe that in Turn 5, Twitania, Burst DPS matters, so therefore,

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Therefore, you have never set foot into coil-5 and hopefully, never will.
Conflagrations appear too often to have all your burst cooldowns ready for them, Dreadknights spawn faster than that too, and there goes your "burst is useful" bubble.
Also, losing stats (and especially VIT, considering you have to eat fireballs) is bad enough for turn 5.

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Originally Posted by Noroi_Kisaragi

PGL beats MNK DPS in burst only. I believe that in Turn 5, Twitania, Burst DPS matters, so therefore, PGL is far more viable than MNK in that specific turn. You lose fists of fire and shoulder tackle, that's it. Shoulder Tackle isnt really THAT Necessary in turn 5, and your overall dps hurts, but it spikes like hell during the burst parts where it matters.

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No, just no.
When it comes to burst especially on Cornflags there is no excuse to not having Shoulder Tackle and Howling fist up which is off GCD and does more than make up for the loss on cross class buffs in short burst phases.

Am I the only person here that keeps up ToD too - I've not seen it mentioned once?

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Originally Posted by Noroi_Kisaragi

You heard me.

To rectify this, having the second monk go Pugilist instead and bring [Raging Strikes] and [Blood for Blood] will see a huge damage boost. Dragon Kick should still be proccing from the other monk, but now you have a PGL that has a 50% damage boost during a 20 s econd timeperiod. Fifty.

To replace the loss of shoulder tackle simply cast [Venomous Strike] for a ranged attack on the way to your new target, don't worry about the stun as the second monk's Shoulder Tackle should have that covered.

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So dumb, how about you learn MNK first before thinking outside the box?

Combining Raging strikes and Blood for Blood is only +40%, where did you get +50%?

Equipping Venomous Strikes(rangeed skill) to a melee job makes it a melee skill.

Also unequiping the MNK soul crystal reduces your stats by a significant amount.

Much easier to rectify the situation by not being a "SIDE ROTATION ONRY BES WERLD, GAIZ" and throw out a bootshine every one in a while to increase dps. Lowering your sustained dps over a long fight is kinda retarded.

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Originally Posted by Noroi_Kisaragi

The immediate problem with Monks is that Dragon Kick does not stack, so you effectively lose dps by having more than one monk in the party.

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Running 2 monks will not decrease the dps of either. Dragon Kick reduces the target's blunt resistance by 10%, and the decreased resistance will boost damage from both monks. At current gear levels, this will actually be a dps increase because the 2nd monk can use a pure Bootshine rotation. At extreme levels of crit, Dragon Kick will surpass Bootshine. In which case, both monks would use Dragon Kick resulting in no change in dps.

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Originally Posted by Noroi_Kisaragi

Pugilist instead and bring [Raging Strikes] and [Blood for Blood] will see a huge damage boost.

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Monk already has access to Blood for Blood, so it essentially comes down to Soulstone (Dex) + Fists of Fire vs Raging Strikes. I'm sure someone else has (or will) post the math on why the Monk abilities are substantially better.

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Originally Posted by Noroi_Kisaragi

To replace the loss of shoulder tackle simply cast [Venomous Strike] for a ranged attack on the way to your new target, don't worry about the stun as the second monk's Shoulder Tackle should have that covered.

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The stun from Shoulder Tackle is irrelevant in current content. The main benefit of Shoulder Tackle is the gap close to maintain GLx3.

Monk is always better.

Can you imagine the carnage if DK buff stacks? Everyone would just shout for all monks. >.< Though I play monk myself, that is imbalance.