BARD NERF, does it have to be done by removing abilities???

So Yoshi has confirmed that the nerf will come by way of changing the cross class abilities that can be equipped. I hope this doesn't mean taking blood for blood or internal release away because imo, that would kill the DPS too much. I think we all agree that Bard's problem is that they are capable of attacking too fast and therefore building hate too fast, which leads to hate management issues. Based on this I have thought of a few different ways to possibly fix this issue without removing abilities.

1) Increase animation lock on all abilities that can be used outside the global cooldown.

Abilities like Bloodletter, Misery's end, Flaming Arrow and all buffs like Barrage and Raging Strikes take longer to get out and therefore slows the Bard down, resulting in a decrease in DPS and enmity. Right now, the Bard can be spamming Heavy Shot, have Bloodletter, Straighter Shot and Misery's End proc at the same time and get all three out barely halfway into eachother's animations. If we know that most of the Bard's DPS comes in bursts, then this would effectively slow him down at the most crucial time for hate management; when he's popping all of his cooldowns.

2) Tweak BfB and/or Internal Release when used as a cross class skill

You can change the amount of buff you get or the recast timer. This way, you can achieve the nerf you want without changing the nature of the role.

3) A global reduction in enmity gain across all Bard skills

some people are of the belief that this Bard OPness is an illusion. Having mained it since the first day of 1.0 alpha, I agree with this statement. I often play with other DPS classes in my FC, geared as much or less than me, and although I don't really notice a disparity in DPS, I most definitely notice one in hate generation. Bard simply generates too much hate, which causes them to pull aggro, which makes everyone believe that they're OP. Is this some kind of coding error? Or maybe it's because they attack too fast? (like I mentioned in point 1). If you're of the belief that Bard DPS is an illusion, then this is the way to go.

Anyway I'm at work and have nothing better to do so I thought I would post my thoughts and see what all of you think. Don't flame me too hard :)

To be clear, I don't think we need ANY changes, I like things the way they are.

Honestly its stupid if they touch it, Its also stupid to suggest ways of touching it.

Here, lets look at the obvious:
How often do you get 2 bards in 1 4 man party via Duty Finder? Quite often actually.

*2 bards in 1 party with no DPS limit break. It is proven that they are set right currently & shouldnt be touched.

*2 nerfed bards in a party missing those cross class abilitys & no DPS limit break is going to be iffy at best.
(talking about AK currently, but after they nerf AK as they said it'lll be the new dungeon that will have probliems)

Also turn 4 of coil without those abilitys on bard kinda messes it up a bit.
(In fact by the sounds of what they are doing class wise to bard & blm there turning to make turn 4 + a few other areas harder to do?)

& to top it off they will need to remove the 20% loss of damage from songs to make up for the cross class abilitys nerf.
Which once again they have proven time & time again wont happen. Because Well we all know why!!

Heres some examples of flaws to there actions:
1 hit AOES or damgaing attacks in general that you need to target enemy to see, But they have you targeting ADDS at the same time so you cant see it. Also in healers case your targeting players.
(i know your saying Tank sohuld macro warn but NO, its not there job if it was there would be a macro already set up in the class! + gamepads dont really have the space for them!)

2 tanks 1MT, 1 OT vs 1 boss & 2 adds. Doesnt add up does it. although it works its just not smart!.

healers getting aggro from healing.. instant Regen aggro.. Not a smart or good idea for a mmo.

Warrior VS PLD currently, dragon jump currently, no DPS LB for DPS class ~ healer LB for a class that cant use healing abilitys... What where you thinking.

e.t.c. we can talk about client & server as well, but we already know the points been made.


Also like to point out that an equally geared Summoner gets the same amount of Aggro from enemys as bards!

You can think im being negitive all you want, but im only thinking with my brain & looking at the facts from experiance!

& i'll probably be banned for speaking the truth & pointing out the facts. ITs very Sad when they do that. But some of this stuff needs to be addressed in game.

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Originally Posted by Starplayer

1) Increase animation lock

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I believe you mean add it, not increase it. You can't increase something that doesn't exist. As you said:

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Originally Posted by Starplayer

Bard can be spamming Heavy Shot, have Bloodletter, Straighter Shot and Misery's End proc at the same time and get all three out barely halfway into eachother's animations

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Which just goes to show that there is no lock.

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

I believe you mean add it, not increase it. You can't increase something that doesn't exist. As you said:



Which just goes to show that there is no lock.

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Sorry if I got the terminology wrong. What I meant was to extend the animation so that you can't cut it short with another ability.

Don't nerf me bro.

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Originally Posted by prymortal

Honestly its stupid if they touch it, Its also stupid to suggest ways of touching it.

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I believe it's stupid to change it because I don't think that one is warranted, but I don't believe that making suggestions on the nature of the change is stupid because they're gonna do it anyway. Why not give suggestions to try and ensure that they don't make WRONG changes?

you tell me the stacking of the following buffs isnt to much , raging strikes, internal release, blood for blood, straight shot, hawk's eye, and we can add straighter shot for every now and then a guaranteed crit... no other class cans tack this many buffs on itself and still have the kind of mobility the bard has..

15% dex
20% accuracy
40% dmg increase
3X autoatack
30% crit chance
20% chance for next straight shot to crit

may just be me but i think its to much, if you add on this your CC abilities, and your utility, you're just a power horse afraid to admit it so you dont get hit with the nerf stick.

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Originally Posted by Warthain

you tell me the stacking of the following buffs isnt to much , raging strikes, internal release, blood for blood, straight shot, hawk's eye, and we can add straighter shot for every now and then a guaranteed crit... no other class cans tack this many buffs on itself and still have the kind of mobility the bard has..

15% dex
20% accuracy
40% dmg increase
3X autoatack
30% crit chance
20% chance for next straight shot to crit

may just be me but i think its to much, if you add on this your CC abilities, and your utility, you're just a power horse afraid to admit it so you dont get hit with the nerf stick.

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These abilities only last for 20 seconds, outside of this, it's simply 2 dots with Heavy Shot spam while waiting for the occasional Bloodletter or Straighter Shot proc. And outside of Internal release, the recast timers on these are very high. It's all burst damage, which is why I think they should just be made to attack slower rather than mess with abilities.

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

Stuffz

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Not sure if we are playing the same game because all of bard's moves are animation locked and you certainly can't use any of the above less than 1/2 GCD from each other. Like WTF? Bro, do you even play? All DoW abilities are animation locked. In fact, why do you actually play bard? Try to interrupt anything with silence and you'll notice that the silence doesn't happen until the damage happens, and the damage doesn't happen until the move connects. Or even simpler, use straight shot and notice the damage doesn't appear until you finish the 2-shot animation. You most certainly can't use something like bloodletter (or raging strikes or any off GCD move for that matter) until you are half way done with the GCD. And you certainly have to wait to use another off GCD move while the animation of the first is playing.

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Originally Posted by Warthain

you tell me the stacking of the following buffs isnt to much , raging strikes, internal release, blood for blood, straight shot, hawk's eye, and we can add straighter shot for every now and then a guaranteed crit... no other class cans tack this many buffs on itself and still have the kind of mobility the bard has..

15% dex
20% accuracy
40% dmg increase
3X autoatack
30% crit chance
20% chance for next straight shot to crit

may just be me but i think its to much, if you add on this your CC abilities, and your utility, you're just a power horse afraid to admit it so you dont get hit with the nerf stick.

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Ya? Marauder? All that and more... Add +50% damage buff, +10% damage buff, +10% damage buff, to all of that. Not sure if serious. And oh yeah Marauders weapons (all weapons in fact) have 5 more points in attack damage. >.> Oh yeah and that's a tank. Bard is DPS...

+50% attack power is not 50% more damage, and warriors with defiance up makes them do -25% damage, and i dont see any other buff they can pop to increase their dps, they can however decrease slashing resistance by 10% ... they better have 5 more damage in their weapons has they are already losing 25% of their damage to tank for you.

berserker (+50% attack power) and internal release(20% crit) thats the only buffs available to warriors.

double post ops

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Originally Posted by Warthain

+50% attack power is not 50% more damage, and warriors with defiance up makes them do -25% damage, and i dont see any other buff they can pop to increase their dps, they can however decrease slashing resistance by 10% ... they better have 5 more damage in their weapons has they are already losing 25% of their damage to tank for you.

berserker (+50% attack power) and internal release(20% crit) thats the only buffs available to warriors.

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Reading comprehension is rare these days. WHERE IN THAT POST DID I WRITE WARRIOR?

yeah because you see plenty of marauders running around in endgame doing dps in dungeons maybe ... if we go by your logic, then lets compare bard dps to every non specialized class, because they can get the most buffs out of all classes, but still doing less damage than having the crystal ON... the game isnt being balanced so you can farm mobs with pseudo dps builds, the game is being balanced so you can run endgame content on same level has other classes of the same role. if your going to bring up the "marauder" compare it to the "duelist" since their on the same role, if you want to talk about the bard, then compare it to the dragoon, monk, black mage and the summoner ... you dont go around comparing the lancer pugilist thaumaturge and the arcanist...

but to make you happy ill compare the bard to the "marauder" and tell even if the marauder weapon has 5 more damage, even if they get all the buffs of every dps class, they will still losing a ton of dps compared to the bard, BECAUSE, the job crystal alone bumps up your stats a ton!

In case you didn't notice, not every class boosts an attacking stat when you equip a soul crystal. I'm quite glad I don't see people using marauder and rather have them wonder what I'm doing to do so much damage. Not sure if ignorant or stupid...

because i knew already you were going to say that i took the liberty of going and check the boost the crystal gives, and heres the outcome.

10str <- dps stat boosted can you see it now ?
10dex
20vit
20int
10mind
10piety


you were saying ? not sure if ignorant or just plain stupid... but nope just a bard, afraid of the nerf hammer so much you have to compare a dps class to a tank class, not even that, a pseudo tank/dps class(marauder) whatever you want to call it. ill just leave it at that and quit this pointless discussion , because regardless of what you people qq, you are getting nerfed, and with reason... so ill just shout MY MARAUDER GOT THA UBBA DPS and byebye..

taking away cross class cooldowns ( beside the tp regenerating one) is 100x better than giving cast time to some abilities.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

In case you didn't notice, not every class boosts an attacking stat when you equip a soul crystal. I'm quite glad I don't see people using marauder and rather have them wonder what I'm doing to do so much damage. Not sure if ignorant or stupid...

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Are you serious? Please tell me you're kidding

You do know BfB is only a 5% DPS increase, right?

And, no.

The issue has always been their ease of use, mobility, utility, combined with their burst DPS and overall DPS. It has nothing to do with enmity.

They were seen as top DPS prior because all buffs generate enmity, and they use more than other jobs. It's a flat amount, so when everyone was less-geared it was more apparent.

Now it's known they're not top DPS, but something is still wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Now it's known they're not top DPS, but something is still wrong.

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"Bard is not top DPS, so we should nerf it further from the top"

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Originally Posted by ThanMazus

"Bard is not top DPS, so we should nerf it further from the top"

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The DPS was never the sole problem. It was a factor.

RE:

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Originally Posted by Kevee

The issue has always been their ease of use, mobility, utility, combined with their burst DPS and overall DPS. It has nothing to do with enmity.

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Originally Posted by ThanMazus

"Bard is not top DPS, so we should nerf it further from the top"

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it isn't top dps, but it deal way too much for all the perks it have, like craptons of buffs and the ability to deal damage while moving. It have far too little downsides, it's only natural to receive the nerf bat

If anything should change on BRD, then it's only the neccesitty of having at least one in your group. Increase MP regen on WHM(possibly by lowering Shroud of Saints CD). Give DRG/SMN a Silence ability. Problem solved. DMG on BRD is fine...people just complained about it cause it's the easiest class to play and achieve high DPS. But they are not at the top so a nerf is just stupid.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

it isn't top dps, but it deal way too much for all the perks it have, like craptons of buffs and the ability to deal damage while moving. It have far too little downsides, it's only natural to receive the nerf bat

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How do you determine "way too much damage" when it isn't the top? What measurement above third place is "way too much" for second place? Doesn't that mean top DPS is even more obscene compared to the DPS behind it if Bards are so much better than the DPS behind them?

Bard is only strong due to mobility, nothing else. When mobility is taken out of the equation, they're by far not the highest DPS, probably 3rd below Monk and Black Mage (imo, im not sure about smn/lnc that well)

In my opinion, a nerf is not needed, and some nerfs will completely kill the class
- Remove invigorate, class dead
- Remove Internal Release, DPS be probably lower than a pld lol be broken

Blood for Blood I can get by with being removed, its good but its not going to kill the class. Since its just like having another Raging Strikes.

I expect something along the lines of:
- Internal Release down to 10% when subclassed
- Straight Shot's additional affect only gives the 10% when the skill is on Crit Hit state (right now you can have constant 10% up)

These only two I can think of that could reduce the overall DPS, but not completely kill it. Your Crit would go down from ~45 to ~35 overall and the straight shot benefit would be more RNG.

They could be going back to how Bard was in the Beta and have it come off of Conjurer. So its back to being more of a support DPS class.

Personally I think they should have left it that way originally , instead of giving into fan demand for a mostly DPS archer. And if they wanted to give into fan demand they should have pushed Bard back until the 2nd jobs were released for the other classes and had the Archer initial job be Ranger or something.

Also they are re-balancing cross-class skills for all jobs not just Bard. I hope they make Esuna and both Sleep spells cross-class.

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Originally Posted by Highlanderx

They could be going back to how Bard was in the Beta and have it come off of Conjurer. So its back to being more of a support DPS class.

Personally I think they should have left it that way originally , instead of giving into fan demand for a mostly DPS archer. And if they wanted to give into fan demand they should have pushed Bard back until the 2nd jobs were released for the other classes and had the Archer initial job be Ranger or something.

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If the job system was entirely brand new, that would have worked. But remember, the job system was branched off from 1.0, and as BRD was already established there, they can't remove it from the job selections.

As long as we get access to Conjurer skills again then I don't really mind.

No, I don't want to level a CNJ. No thank you.

140-150 potency attacks though except the dots though which take 18 seconds to fully deal total damage. Blood letters was said to be parsed like 4th of overall damage.

But w/e happens, happens. Invested too much already on bard lol

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Originally Posted by Escadora

No, I don't want to level a CNJ. No thank you.

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And I didn't want to level as a Pugilist but I still had to. Don't be lazy.

BRDS currently bring too much and have too much going for them. They have more steroids then any other class, and can attack on the move. I'd be happy if they removed LNC cross class skills, added something else supporty, made a few abilities non usable while moving, but upped the potency of their abilities to compensate. A common argument is, ''but all our stuff is so weak!1'' Erm, it doesn't matter if it's weak or not if you can use it whenever you want, wading through AoE or not. Add steroids and songs, and BRDS currently have too much going for them. I hope they balance the class honestly, and not just by taking cross class skills away (it's coming) but by upping potency if they take steroids away/lock movement for certain skills.

balance is required