2.0 WAR tanking in end game content. Is it worth it?

I queue up for Titan HM using the Duty Finder and was ready to have a fun and exciting challenge since it was my first Titan HM run. Being someone who enjoys playing WAR and wanting to challenge myself (knowing full well the difficulties a 2.0 WAR has in Titan HM) I asked politely if I could try MT for the first attempt. The first response that I got was "Ok, bye". Wow, really? I know that some people might have had bad experiences with WAR MT but... really? Not wanting to start an argument I just accepted it and let the other tank (PLD) MT. We were doing pretty well I might say and got up to the heart stage. I messed up and got hit by a landslide and flew right off. We failed to kill the heart in time and wiped. Everyone seemed a bit annoyed but I was ready to try again with a positive attitude.Unfortunately I was belittled for failing to dodge a landslide(this is somewhat fair as it was my fault for getting hit) and was blamed for the failure of the heart stage. Lets be honest here, I highly doubt a WAR can provide the necessary DPS needed to kill the heart as it was about 1/4th left before Titan romped us. But that's beside the point. What happened was that the person who acted like a jerk instantly left prompting everyone else to leave. As you probably figured out, this left a bad taste in mouth which prompts the question; Is everyone who DF end game content like this? Is it because I'm a WAR?

Have any of you other WARs experienced something similiar to this?

While I'm not a WAR, I have seen such behavior many times in PUG and Duty Finder groups.

I think it is partially because of being a WAR and the class currently being underpowered as a tank so a lot of people will be jerks and treat WAR's like second class citizens. This is why the changes proposed in patch 2.1 are coming, to bring WAR's equal to PLD and stop the preferential treatment that has been going on. Whether the changes will do this correctly is obviously a heated debate at the moment.

However I think the main factor is that often time people in PUG's and DF groups can just straight up be immature, rude and jerks. Often tossing blame around and rage quitting for little to no reason and in my experience the problems tend to be a result of their own incompetencies.

If you like playing WAR I would say keep at it. Jerks will be jerks and with the incoming changes, hopefully the disparity between tanking classes will be properly addressed.

Yes its because you are a WAR.
This said people on the DF shouldnt expect to win and everyone should be allowed to get some experience on the fight.
You need to gear yourself well (full darklight would be ideal) and find/make a party that is willing to take a WAR.
One experienced healer would help a lot.

Generally the landslide won't be on you unless the dps screwed up and put it on you.

Erm, under normal circumstances the Tanking tank will never get Landslided unless some one was standing where you were and in that case they are likely to get hit by Rock Buster afterwards. DF in Japan the tanks always check each other out, then decide, no fuss no drama only kills. Thus far Titan on DF with Japanese is at around 70-80% clear rate.

I queue as Paladin and Warrior alternately and sometimes, a weaker tank comes in and wants to MT most of the folks won't go against it, since I can DPS and when he does drop I can pick it up.

Hence if you want to play with a more mature crowd, go with the Japanese, but just make sure you are at least "fit" for the role... Don't go coming in trying to tank with full AF1 gear and GC 44s.

Another option is, if you haven't already, find a group of people that you jive with and join their FC.
A good FC with mature players that you get along with is a huge boon when doing high level content.

So maybe try finding groups for things via shout instead of DF, it may take longer but if you keep your eyes open you can usually find a group looking for something you may want to do.
Eventually you'll run into some people that you work well with and when you do ask them about their FC and whether or not they would consider letting you join.

Anyways, best of luck to you and I hope you find a good group of people to play with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FallenWings

I queue up for Titan HM using the Duty Finder
Have any of you other WARs experienced something similiar to this?

---

Your problem is the duty finder.

Expect antisocial kiddies.

Intelligent sarcasm is your weapon.

Youtube your best moments.

When I was going in DF for my WAR relic (fun times) I had a few priceless moments.

The most priceless one was pairing up with a 3.9k HP PLD, full AF guess he was a STR build. Think I was sitting at just over 7k hp at the time (Full DL + Garuda's Scream) ....see if you guys can guess who the healers wanted as MT?

After we wiped because the poor guy couldn't even hold aggro I politely asked if I was ok to MT now but the healers had a already left :p

WAR will be the go to Tank in 2.1, so just stick it out.

On a side note. You REALLY REALLY need to replace your chest piece. Really x3 if you want to tank Titan.

I realize the DL chest looks abysmal, I couldn't stand it, but tanking Titan will be the hardest hitting boss you've ever tanked and you will want to be ready.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garnatian

WAR will be the go to Tank in 2.0, so just stick it out.

---

Don't believe this liar. Paladin will still be king. Warrior won't be a terrible mistake though.

PS 2.1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garnatian

WAR will be the go to Tank in 2.0, so just stick it out.

---

I think you mean 2.1...

I also have to disagree with your prediction. While Warrior will be in a MUCH better place than they are currently in 2.0, the new 2.1 warrior won't replace paladin across the board. Despite Warriors rework they will still lack the raw mitigation of a paladin with all their cool-downs. Warriors, I believe, will be far more viable than they are now and probably the more desirable tank on farmed content or encounters where the tanks life isn't in constant jeopardy.

Paladins still have far more on demand mitigation and Hallowed. Holmgang currently is resisted by all meaningful bosses and SE has yet to mention that changing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zoomie

Holmgang currently is resisted by all meaningful bosses and SE has yet to mention that changing.

---

Holmgang still applies to you even if the boss resists it, meaning you'll still get the 1 HP thing for the 6s.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Holmgang still applies to you even if the boss resists it, meaning you'll still get the 1 HP thing for the 6s.

---

Holmgang really shouldn't be auto resisted by many of the bosses except during very particular scripted instances where the boss moves to a location for a special attack or something such as when Hydra moves to the center to do its super AoE attack, I could see Holmgang being abused and breaking fights for instances like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zoomie

I also have to disagree with your prediction. While Warrior will be in a MUCH better place than they are currently in 2.0, the new 2.1 warrior won't replace paladin across the board.

---

No, they won't.

Their mitigation will only be slightly behind PLD. They have a way better version of Rampart (Inner Beast), a better version of Sentinel (Vengeance) and (we'll have to wait and see) an ability on par with Block (Storm's Path) this on top of their increased Healing Received and HP buffer make them the much better Tank.

If it weren't for the fact that BRDs are getting nerfed, I wouldn't recommend taking a PLD in 2.1 if these changes go through.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garnatian

No, they won't.

Their mitigation will only be slightly behind PLD. They have a way better version of Rampart (Inner Beast), a better version of Sentinel (Vengeance) and (we'll have to wait and see) an ability on par with Block (Storm's Path) this on top of their increased Healing Received and HP buffer make them the much better Tank.

If it weren't for the fact that BRDs are getting nerfed, I wouldn't recommend taking a PLD in 2.1 if these changes go through.

---

Shield Oath vs Defiance
Shield Oath is straight up better. If we convert Shield Oath into it's actual effect in terms of eHP and eHealing, we get +25% to both. Defiance is +25% eHP and only +20% eHealing. Defiance is beter than it was, but it still isn't as good as Shield Oath.

Rampart vs Inner Beast:
Both 20%. Rampart is up for longer, Inner Beast is usable more often. If you time it correctly, Inner Beast should be usable for most large spikes. As long as you time it correctly and you both have something to hit and actually hit it. We will have to test once it is released, but I wouldn't be surprised if it works like most other buffs currently, if the mob has a stoneskin or is invulnerable and you don't do any damage, you likely wont get the damage reduction. Meanwhile Rampart is just a button you click and you get your buff, and it doesn't really matter if you time it slightly wrong because it lasts for 20 seconds.

No real advantage here, both abilities good, with pros and cons. I'd say this one is balanced, with the advantage going either way depending on the situation.

Sentinel vs Vengeance:
40% for 10 seconds every 3 minutes versus 30% for 15 seconds every 2 minutes. Vengeance is going to be less reduction, for longer, more often. Neither of these abilities is going to be up for all the spikes, or even half of them. Again, depending on how you use them, the advantage could go either way. Sentinel will reduce the larger hits by 33% more than Vengeance, but Vengeance will be able to be used more often. But Inner Beast will be available for pretty much all large hits. I honestly don't see Vengeance being used for a single large spike, as IB is already available for that. instead I see Vengeance being used to fill the gap between 2 Inner Beasts to reduce something else, either extra damage incoming from mobs that will be dead by the end of the duration or for example on the Dreadnaughts where you need prolonged good mitigation rather than large amounts of mitigation for one hit. Neither of these abilities are on short enough cooldowns that you're going to use them as they come up,and they are both very good effects. They are bordering close on the Too Awesome to Use threshold.

Again, different uses and the advantage could go either way. I'm inclined to say Vengeance is slightly better, but the difference is more in their use than their power. Sentinel for that one big attack that you wont have rampart for but don't want to use Hallowed and Vengeance to fill in the gaps of Inner Beasts. Both are good and I honestly don't know which one I would pick if given the choice.

Comparing Block to Storm's Path is silly. Storm's Path should be compared to Rage of Halone's STR debuff, but we can't really compare it until we have numbers. I expect it to be 2-3% and not in my wildest fever dreams could I see it ever being higher than 5% without being on such a short timer that you have to use nothing but this combo to keep it up.

I do like the fact that you completely ignored the Hallowed vs Holmgang comparison. Probably because Hallowed is just straight up better than Holmgang in every way except recast. Funny how things that don't help an argument have a convenient habit of being ignored.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paikis

Rampart vs Inner Beast:
Both 20%. Rampart is up for longer, Inner Beast is usable more often. If you time it correctly, Inner Beast should be usable for most large spikes. As long as you time it correctly and you both have something to hit and actually hit it. We will have to test once it is released, but I wouldn't be surprised if it works like most other buffs currently, if the mob has a stoneskin or is invulnerable and you don't do any damage, you likely wont get the damage reduction. Meanwhile Rampart is just a button you click and you get your buff, and it doesn't really matter if you time it slightly wrong because it lasts for 20 seconds.

---

Under the assumption of continuous, non-distinct damage:

1. Rampart adds approx 4.4% mitigation.
2. Inner Beast adds approx. 6.7% mitigation.

So Inner Beast beats Rampart by a big margin outside of psychological and mechanical considerations.

The psychological aspect simply refers to a persons compulsion to save CDs until almost absolute necessity, at the potential loss of average mitigation

The mechanical aspect refers to abilities, such as Mountain Buster and Death Sentence that give time different damage weights. This gives abilities with shorter durations/CDs a massive advantage as if 60% of the total damage only occurs in isolated times of 3-6s, then increasing mitigation outside of those intervals is inefficient and the average mitigation of the ability drops pretty drastically. Inner Beast absolutely destroys Rampart in this regard as you are free to use Inner Beast almost off CD and if absolutely necessary you are capable of falling on Infuriate for an instant Inner Beast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paikis

Sentinel vs Vengeance:
40% for 10 seconds every 3 minutes versus 30% for 15 seconds every 2 minutes. Vengeance is going to be less reduction, for longer, more often. Neither of these abilities is going to be up for all the spikes, or even half of them. Again, depending on how you use them, the advantage could go either way. Sentinel will reduce the larger hits by 33% more than Vengeance, but Vengeance will be able to be used more often. But Inner Beast will be available for pretty much all large hits. I honestly don't see Vengeance being used for a single large spike, as IB is already available for that. instead I see Vengeance being used to fill the gap between 2 Inner Beasts to reduce something else, either extra damage incoming from mobs that will be dead by the end of the duration or for example on the Dreadnaughts where you need prolonged good mitigation rather than large amounts of mitigation for one hit. Neither of these abilities are on short enough cooldowns that you're going to use them as they come up,and they are both very good effects. They are bordering close on the Too Awesome to Use threshold.

---

Under the assumption of continuous, non-distinct damage:

1. Sentinel adds approx 2.2% mitigation.
2. Vengeance adds approx. 3.8% mitigation.

Same scenario as Rampart vs. Inner Beast. Better overall mitigation without considering psychological and mechanical issues and when you take them into consideration, Vengeance is much better than Sentinel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paikis

I do like the fact that you completely ignored the Hallowed vs Holmgang comparison. Probably because Hallowed is just straight up better than Holmgang in every way except recast. Funny how things that don't help an argument have a convenient habit of being ignored.

---

I didn't mention it because Holmgang's worth is difficult to quantify. There are 2 scenarios to compare against with those 2 abilities:

1. You've just taken a large proportional hit and without immediate heals, you stand a chance of dying. (Following a Mountain Buster/Death Sentence).
2. You're taking massive continuous damage. (Caduceus /ADS)

In scenario 1. Holmgang is better. More likely to happen multiple times in a single encounters which makes the shorter cooldown more beneficial, also the reducing damage doesn't serve too much purpose as the damage outside the bounds of the ability is relatively small and fairly easy to heal.

In scenario 2. Hallowed is better. This is harder to quantify, but I would personally give it to Hallowed. This situation will usually not occur multiple times in an encounter and mostly happens towards the end , meaning CD has little worth. So the benefit here comes down to duration and damage mitigated as it provides a buffer for DPS to do whatever needs to be done (Kill Caduceus, Tank Swap ADS).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paikis

Comparing Block to Storm's Path is silly. Storm's Path should be compared to Rage of Halone's STR debuff, but we can't really compare it until we have numbers. I expect it to be 2-3% and not in my wildest fever dreams could I see it ever being higher than 5% without being on such a short timer that you have to use nothing but this combo to keep it up.

---

You cannot compare Storm's Path to either as it has the potential to be better than both simply because not all damage relies on STR and not all damage can be blocked. We cannot really discuss whether or not it is better because we have no idea how Storm's Path damage reduction is going to work as of yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garnatian

if 60% of the total damage only occurs in isolated times of 3-6s, then increasing mitigation outside of those intervals is inefficient and the average mitigation of the ability drops pretty drastically. Inner Beast absolutely destroys Rampart in this regard as you are free to use Inner Beast almost off CD and if absolutely necessary you are capable of falling on Infuriate for an instant Inner Beast.

<snip>

Better overall mitigation without considering psychological and mechanical issues and when you take them into consideration, Vengeance is much better than Sentinel.

---

Please read the above quotes and then decide which of them you want to go with.

Either inner Beast is better because you can reduce the large spikes more, or Vengeance is better because it has a higher average mitigation. You can not have your cake and eat it too.

You put a lot of words into your post, and I even agree with some of it, but you basically just said:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Garnatian

When you ignore all the advantages of the Paladin's cooldowns and all the disadvantages of the Warrior's, the Warrior's buttons are better

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paikis

Please read the above quotes and then decide which of them you want to go with.

Either inner Beast is better because you can reduce the large spikes more, or Vengeance is better because it has a higher average mitigation. You can not have your cake and eat it too.

You put a lot of words into your post, and I even agree with some of it, but you basically just said:

---

All the information as to why Inner Beast/Vengeance are much better than both Rampart/Sentinel is there and explained. If you don't understand, try and read it again or just move on.

Given those differences aren't as large as they could have been, there is no clear cut reason to bring only Warrior over Paladin in 2.1. Paladin still requires less heals and still take hits better. Just Warrior isn't a liability in the hands of the unskilled (and sometimes of skilled).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

Given those differences aren't as large as they could have been, there is no clear cut reason to bring only Warrior over Paladin in 2.1. Paladin still requires less heals and still take hits better. Just Warrior isn't a liability in the hands of the unskilled (and sometimes of skilled).

---

I wouldn't be so confident with that opinion. As it stands there's a 5% difference in effective Healing, when you take into account the WARs superior mitigation abilities and his small self heals, I wouldn't be surprised if WAR requires less Healing. Though we'll have to wait to see what they do with Storm's Path.

It seems to me that in 2.1 the actual tank differences will be negligible. Yes, the way it's looking Paladins will require less healing over an entire fight, but Warriors will have more control over their mitigation in small increments. Paladins will be easier to use because their CD's last longer and are (slightly) more fire and forget, Warriors will need to work a (tiny) bit harder in order to time IB with incoming damage. In return, Warriors can maximize their mitigation when they need to rather then roll on blanket CD's.

It's like driving a manual vs. driving an automatic. They both do about the same thing, but the former allows more room for maximizing efficiency while at the same time being more unforgiving in regards to human error.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FallenWings

I queue up for Titan HM using the Duty Finder and was ready to have a fun and exciting challenge since it was my first Titan HM run. Being someone who enjoys playing WAR and wanting to challenge myself (knowing full well the difficulties a 2.0 WAR has in Titan HM) I asked politely if I could try MT for the first attempt. The first response that I got was "Ok, bye". Wow, really? ... ... Is it because I'm a WAR?

---

The answer to this is both yes and no.

"wanting to challenge myself" - you must realize, it's not just yourself you are challenging.
You are challenging the healers, and by extension everyone else in the group. (ESPECIALLY if you're under-geared)

So while this would be totally fine if you were with a group of friends, it's seen as rude in DF.
You have to realize that it's likely that most of the people in DF have attempted Titan(HM) HUNDREDS of times by now.
They don't want to be challenged. They just want to get it over with.
That doesn't justify their behavior when they act like a^%holes, but hopefully it explains WHY they sometimes act like a^%holes.

If you were in full Darklight with Garuda's Axe AND already had experience with the fight... then there would be much less reason for them to scoff when you asked to MT.

The WAR bias is strong. I sat there and watched this shout group looking for a tank for quite some time while I was crafting. After a while, I figure.. hell why not help some folks out since I have done this fight more times then I can count. I swapped gear, put on defiance. Then I join the group... I get told instantly by the guy in the zone, looking at my relic and 8k HP that "WAR cant tank titan, and they were not going to carry me, re-role pally". I was then kicked from the group.

I am not sure where the bias came from, but it is absolutely there. It will get better... and there are very few good WAR's in myth/allegan that we should be in demand unless the FoTM'ers roll war because we become unbalanced.

Just stick it out, as a warrior I've recieved alot of flak and was denied the previlage of tanking groups on more than one occasion. But guess what, I'm now on T5 as a warrior and can tank wp speed runs better than plds if I have a good healer with me. Accomplishing all of that as a warrior instead of a facerolling pld feels alot more rewarding and it earns people's respect and praise. So learn your class now while we're "underpowered" and once 2.1 comes around you will be one of the best tanks around and ignore the ignorant asses like the ones i mentioned in my first sentence.