I totally understand why coil has locks that save progress weekly and why these need to carry over to people that join others. However, the specifics are in dire need of improvement:
1. We have no choice but to take the leader's word of where his progress is. If he lies or remembers incorrectly, we end up missing out on everything before that with no warning. At the least, give users a prompt asking them to confirm they want to advance their own progress up to where the leader is (with a good description of where he is like the boss name).
2. Beyond that, it's a pain for the leader to figure out what people in their group are doing wrong. The cryptic errors are almost comic. SOMEONE doesn't have access to coil? Well, tell me who it is! SOMEONE is farther? Well, who is it? And how far are they?
Granted, one could argue that if you don't trust your party and can't properly communicate these things you shouldn't be there in the first place. But that's no excuse for bad UI. =)
Need to Fix Coil Group Progress Issues
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11-22-2013, 02:40 PMEveKNeed to Fix Coil Group Progress Issues
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11-22-2013, 03:00 PMThorauku
There's this issue that the entrance for coil keeps on saying that one or more party members are over in certain turn let's say T1.
It happens mostly during peak hours after reset where Wineport is too crowded with coil runners. -
11-22-2013, 05:38 PMCryvil
#1 can be fixed easily by advancing someone's coil progress only when they've actually completed a turn. I missed out on 1-4 last week because I practiced T5 a bit. I reasoned that there would be no reason whatsoever to advance coil progress simply on entry and that they wouldn't make such a weird design decision that would open the game to griefing..was I ever wrong. And indeed, the sad part is that the way it stands now, it makes it very easy for people to be griefed. Someone on T5 looking for laughs can advertise as being on T1 and then screw countless people out of doing coil for the week. I wonder how much this would have to happen before the devs decided to actually fix it...
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11-22-2013, 06:54 PMispano
The lockouts actually work like Heroic Raid Lockouts in WoW(Or how they did in Patch 4.something) You got locked as soon as you entered a Heroic Raid. Though it DID warn you and give you the option to decline, which is what we need.
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11-23-2013, 03:20 AMFifthDarkrumThis was happening on our server this past week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryvil
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11-23-2013, 04:26 AMGuhndahb
EveK's suggestions exactly as she made them would work perfectly and need to be implemented as soon as possible. Error messages need to specify what the problem is and with whom. And a simple Yes/No dialog needs to pop up if a person will be advancing their Coil past their current point when the duty is registered by the party leader.
Something more sophisticated would be better long term, so people don't have to all gather in Wineport just to find out something is wrong and then potentially have to start all over again. Ultimately, I think the Coil needs to be adjusted to make better use of the duty-finder. Requiring groups to pre-form is very sensible for the Coil. But I think allowing groups to form and then apply to the Duty Finder like most people do with Titan HM would be a big improvement. It just needs to handle the complexity of the Coil's presently unique progression system and have protections for the same issues we are having here. -
11-23-2013, 04:43 AMSylvannaomg never thought of doing that... thanks for the idea heheheQuote:
Originally Posted by Cryvil
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12-03-2013, 03:40 PMyoshi71089A million times this. I tried practicing Turn 4 last week, knowing we wouldn't beat it, and not having beaten Turn 1 that week. Then when I joined a T1 group later, found out I was preventing the group from going in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryvil
Why would I be locked to a certain Turn I hadn't even beaten yet? This is a VERY odd design decision. It makes ZERO sense. -
12-05-2013, 02:07 AMVodomirNo, it's not and it DOES make perfect sense. This is actually the standard way to handle raid locks in most of the major MMORPGs out there. A raid does not exist as a series of independent instances. In most games it's usually one big instanced area where the players progressively make their way from lock to lock. So in order to reach boss number 4 you will have to clear all three bosses before (thus giving you the locks for those 4 bosses). The difference with the coil is that the coil is not one separate big space, but it's cut down into 5 wings (turns) that still build up on each other in a form of linear progression. You will still have to clear bosses 1-3 if you want to go against boss number 4. Just imagine a regular dungeon like AK and you join a party in progress that is stuck on the last boss. Now after beating the final boss, would you expect to be able to go back and find bosses 1 and 2 alive, just because you were not there when those bosses were killed? For sure not. And the same applies to a raid, just on a larger scale.Quote:
Originally Posted by yoshi71089
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12-09-2013, 05:30 PMyoshi71089Ah, you misunderstand me. I mean to say if I attempted Turn 4, but did not beat it, I shouldn't be locked out of Turns 1 through 3. I should, however, be locked out if I DID complete Turn 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vodomir
Even in a lock to lock raid, if I join in a party on, say lock 4/6, but then we don't beat the raid and the group falls apart, I can go back at a later time and attempt the raid at lock 0/6 (assuming no locks were broken).
Progression shouldn't be counted unless you actually beat the turn. -
12-10-2013, 04:39 AMCrazypluto
They need to make it so you can pick what turn you want to do, I cant tell you how many times my static has got to turn 4/5 and then people have to go and we never finish them for the week. This really sucks for classes like bard and monk that need most of the gear from turn 4/5.
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12-10-2013, 09:57 AMVodomirYou don't seem to get the concept behind a linear raid progression. You can only enter Turn 4, if Turn 1-3 have been beaten before within the same lock cycle. So whenever you enter Turn 4, Turns 1-3 have already been cleared - there's no way to go back during this lock cycle. Just be aware of what locks you have and what locks will be inherited by entring the coil with a given raid group. If you haven't run Coil this week and want to run Turn 1-3, then simply don't join a group for Turn 4. It's not like rocket science. There's no such concept as breaking locks or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by yoshi71089
No they don't need to change it like that. Why would they? It's a linear raid and you are supposed to beat all of the previous turns in order to work on a later one. IF they changed it the way you suggest it, it wouldn't be a raid anymore, as you can do all of the turns in any order you see fit - this would basically turn the raid into 5 independet instances without any kind of progression between them. You are not supposed to start with Turn 4 or 5 and then later on clear Turns 1-3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazypluto
That's like saying "They need to nerf turns 4 and 5, as my FC cannot beat it, which sucks for bards and monks, as they get most of their gear from the latter turns." You either need to speed up your clear times for turns 1-3 so you manage to clear turn 4 and 5 on the same day or just add an additional raid day.
No one needs to change anything, just because a few people don't get their gear. -
12-10-2013, 08:06 PMMegidoDo you have an actual argument on why we should not get something likeQuote:
Originally Posted by Vodomir
- This Dungeon has already been started. Please leave the instance or be saved after 60 seconds.
- Saving players after boss get downed.
Which many MMO's use?
Or is it just 'meh no need i dont really care about other people'. Surely there is some need or this thread wouldnt exist, no?
Just to be clear this does not affect me in the slightest, but it does bother me reading about people losing out on gear (and fun not to mention paying a sub for the content!) for no good reason. -
12-10-2013, 11:39 PMVodomirActually the progress IS saved after a boss gets downed. You merely inherit the raid leader's locks once you enter the dungeon. Lets say you don't have any locks and join a group for Turn 4. The moment you set foot into Turn 4 you inherit the locks from the raid leader (locks for turns 1-3 in this specific example). The lock for turn 4 itself will first be set AFTER killing the boss. This is the way any MMO out there handles it. And I already stated the reasoning behind this numerous times. The raid is build in a linear fashion, so you will have to down the turns in the given order. This implies that turns 1-3 have already been cleared (maybe not by you, but at least by the raid leader), there's no going back to clear them again, as being in Turn 4 means bosses 1-3 are already dead. It's like joining a party in progress in a regular dungeon. If you join the group for the last boss and don't beat it, you can't just warp back to the dungeon's entrance and all of a sudden the previous bosses are up and alive again. Locks save your progress and having a lock that grants access to a higher turn automatically implies that the group has already progressed past the previous turns. It works like this in any major MMO out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megido
I'm all for your first bullet however. There should be a way to see which locks will be inherited BEFORE you enter the dungeon and you should not automatically be teleported into the dungeon once the Raid Leader steps in. The players should see some kind of confirmation dialog stating that they are about to join a raid that has already progressed beyond whatever locks the player may have themselves. Or if such a dialog won't be introduced, players should be provided with a tool so check which locks the raid leader has prior to entering the dungeon themselves (as locks are inherited the moment you enter the dungeon). By all means the players should be allowed to decide for themselves when they want to enter the dungeon. This forced teleport is just crap.
I guess the need is from people who either haven't played MMOs before or who don't get the concept behind raid locks and linear raid progression. I guess the confusion probably stems from the coil being split into separate turns rather then having all of them in the same instanced space (as most other MMOs out there do). If it was one space, people would physically have to walk through the areas that have already been cleared and see that no trash or bosses are alive in the previous turns. Having the coil split into five separate turns probably invokes the impression that those turns work independently, which simply is not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megido
No one loses out on their gear. You can't blame the game or the system if people are not able to down all of the turns within whatever timeframes they allocate for raiding. If a raid only invests 1 hour per week on raiding, this is hardly the game's fault. And to be honest, a raid that has all of the turns on farm can probably clear all five turns in less than 1 hour (I think there was already a thread on groups clearing the coil in such times). If someone loses out on gear from the later turns it's either because they just can't beat besaid turns or because they take a break after turn 3 and never come back during the lock cycle (which is entirely in their own responsibility). It's not like the game took something away from them or like the game locks them out from the loot. If people want the loot from turn 4 and 5, they just have to kill those turns. No rocket science involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megido