Combat will be what kills this game [end of days! redeem! blah blah!]

This thread has little/nothing to do with red telegraphed areas and the latency issues relating

First, I love the design of the combat. Tera (a "AAA" mmo) and other AA titles did it better with free-targeting, but I like, design-wise, how this combat is done. I like the dancing and dodging.

Combat is one of the things that hooked me.

There are several problems with the combat though.

Off-GCD abilities are not instant, like they should be
The whole point of off-gcd abilities is using them precisely when you need them. The standard mmo model long ago realized that slowing your rotation is stupid. Memorizing fights is also stupid (though the gaming community hasn't caught on to this one). A paladin can solo tank and stun ifrit, if he's memorized the eruption pattern and slows himself a little when he expects an eruption coming. (That's not to imply shield bash is off the GCD, that's just about memorizing patterns).

Perhaps it's a symptom of the client-server communication but only is there a sort of mini-gcd, an Animation-Lock (because SE wants to see all our animations), but abilities also seem to be timed so that the effect is not seen until the damage connects. Warrior's stun, Brutal Swing, does not appear to stun until the axe connects. Is this deliberate or coincidental? I can't say.

We don't care about our animations

The first time I used Rage of Halone, it was neat. I liked it. It reminded me a lot of a stylish Vorpal Blade.

Now? I don't care. I don't want to be unable to use Hallowed Ground, Sentinel, Foresight, etc when I click them because you want me to see RoH for the hundred-thousandth time. If one among us loves his animations so much, he can go solo and watch them.

Combat is so vibrant and pretty in this game that we lose much of the effects in the moment. I'm watching my feet, I'm glancing at threat-list, I'm glancing at party list, party chat, sometimes watching my debuffs, or a focus target.

The inability to stack common sense macros properly
Combat-rezzing, for instance, is about finding the opportune moment to raise your comrade. This is done by trying to prop up the tank as much as possible, targeting your fallen fellow, Swiftcasting, and raising. However, while you're doing this, everyone is taking damage. The small half-second of watching your swiftcast animation before you can click again is just... infuriating. That half second can be the difference between a death that dominos into failure.

Sorry, but it's common sense that we should be able to press a single macro, execute, and move on.

Raising targets and the inability to heal them for...5 seconds afterward

If I raise you, wait til you have some health, and cast a cure on you, the cure lands on me. You get nothing. This is true for 3-5 seconds after you're alive. This leads to wasted mana, and wasted GCDs, and often, a re-death.

The funny thing is that scholar pets can heal these targets almost immediately. I don't consider this a bug, I consider the scholar pets being able to heal properly and healers are the ones that are bugged.

Consumption of abilities and having no effect: Part 1

Sorry, if the white mage uses Benediction on me, and the effect goes off, I should not die from a 200 hit immediately after. This is most evident of some serious latency problems in combat. If the game knows the target was alive when the whm hit it, the target should survive. Something needs to be looked at regarding this.

Famously, abilities don't take effect until the animation completes, which is why paladins can die after they use hallowed ground, even against the most types of damage that HG is immune to.

Consumption of abilities and having no effect: Part 2

It is an "accepted bug", that we're not hearing any feedback on, that abilities are occasionally eaten while having no effect. I stack bloodbath and foresight and Vengeance in a macro on my warrior. I have to triple-press this macro, and frequently enough, one of the effects does not happen. It goes on cooldown, but it does not happen. What the heck is this about? Other things, too, are accepted bugs, and we don't hear anything about what's happening to fix them.

It won't be the death of the game, the lack of content will be.

Though I will say the combat is very sluggish when compared to other MMOs, but it's to be expected and I don't fault the game for it.

You don't care about your animations.

I've got used to the animation-first system and there's nothing inherently wrong about it.

There are people who like turn based combat. There are people who like full action.
There are people who like first person camera. There are people who like third person.

There's nothing wrong with FFXIV's animation-first system. It's a design choice.

Don't use Rage of Halone when you think you'll need a cooldown. You don't have to press it because the button lightened up.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

It won't be the death of the game, the lack of content will be.

Though I will say the combat is very sluggish when compared to other MMOs, but it's to be expected and I don't fault the game for it.

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Combat isn't to bad, I like it. But lack of content is going to be the downfall of this game.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

It won't be the death of the game, the lack of content will be.

Though I will say the combat is very sluggish when compared to other MMOs, but it's to be expected and I don't fault the game for it.

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The problem is that there are other places you can go with similar combat that is better programmed.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

You don't care about your animations.

I've got used to the animation-first system and there's nothing inherently wrong about it.

There are people who like turn based combat. There are people who like full action.
There are people who like first person camera. There are people who like third person.

There's nothing wrong with FFXIV's animation-first system. It's a design choice.

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To use your example, there are those that like both camera systems, but third person camera, in the mmo environment is superior if you want to be remotely situationally aware, which is something any remotely difficult fight requires.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Don't use Rage of Halone when you think you'll need a cooldown. You don't have to press it because the button lightened up.

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RoH was an example and merely that. Every ability has an animation lock.

"Don't use any ability when you think you'll need a cooldown", sounds really really fun. Wait, not fun, the other thing.

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Originally Posted by Arkista

Combat isn't to bad, I like it. But lack of content is going to be the downfall of this game.

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On paper, I like the combat, but it hasn't been programmed very well.

Before someone asks "Well, if you think you could do better.." You know what? I couldn't. I'm not a professional game programmer working for a AAA gaming company either.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Don't use Rage of Halone when you think you'll need a cooldown. You don't have to press it because the button lightened up.

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When it comes to running WP, having two people with Relics so far up my butt, I can't afford to not use the full combo otherwise I'll be losing mobs left, right and centre.

Basically made the same thread:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...is-problematic.

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Originally Posted by Mistoltin

When it comes to running WP, having two people with Relics so far up my butt, I can't afford to not use the full combo otherwise I'll be losing mobs left, right and centre.

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Then tell your DDs to slow down.

If it's a speed run, then I don't get what you're complaining about. You want it to be even easier?

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

It won't be the death of the game, the lack of content will be.

Though I will say the combat is very sluggish when compared to other MMOs, but it's to be expected and I don't fault the game for it.

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yea i think the content is fine. get a job or something

It will look awfully retarded to have animations be cut off halfway and start another one just to be cut off again.
Your character will look like he/she is having an epileptic fit - Immersion much?

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Originally Posted by tymora

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game already does that

my only problem with this ARR and the dev ideology that sluggish unresponsive gameplay makes it challenging, no it doesn't (its dumb)

Someone is about to get facerolled by the boss (down to 100hp) go go benediction...... cmon animations... cm- newp

When I hit my ability I expect them to take effect now, not next week

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Originally Posted by tymora

It will look awfully retarded to have animations be cut off halfway and start another one just to be cut off again.
Your character will look like he/she is having an epileptic fit - Immersion much?

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Bull. A) There's too much going on in combat to really notice such things, and B) Most other games do this, and do you know what they do? They blend the effects, usually.

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

my only problem with this ARR and the dev ideology that sluggish unresponsive gameplay makes it challenging, no it doesn't (its dumb)

Someone is about to get facerolled by the boss (down to 100hp) go go benediction...... cmon animations... cm- newp

When I hit my ability I expect them to take effect now, not next week

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This. Except that, ya know, not being able to rely on abilities to execute when you hit them, land in time, or take effect at all really does make the game more challenging.

"Alright, when the boss splits, both tanks should pop their minimal defensive cooldowns. DPS, take a moment, fold your hands, and pray that the server registers the action and doesn't just put the ability on cooldown."

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Originally Posted by tymora

It will look awfully retarded to have animations be cut off halfway and start another one just to be cut off again.
Your character will look like he/she is having an epileptic fit - Immersion much?

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My character will have an epileptic fit from all the gaudy particle effects in the game.

The Off-GCD abilities not casting right when you press them is something that has bothered me tremendously since I started playing the game. If the button is lit up, pressing it should trigger the ability immediately, not ignore my input and fail silently. Having lit buttons like that just makes it so that the UI is lying to the players, and because of that makes the game feel sluggish and unresponsive. Having buttons that ignore input is horrible UI design and just leads to me mashing the button as fast as I can when I want to use the ability.

To summarize it, you are very displeased with the casting animation that costs unnecessary delay to your non-GCD skills and even unable to heal a player when he is raised.

From a Dragoon perspective,

I agree it gets very disappointing as this majorly applies to Dragoon players who jumps(all jump skills are non-GCD) in the sky and lands in an AOE unable to dodge it on time due to the long casting animation. Leg Sweep stun animation also has an illogical delay for me.

From Raise perspective,

To die again after being raised because of the unnecessary delay for raising as well, yes gets very frustrating, and a 30% penalty implemented after 2nd raise. I guess SE is telling us to also time ourselves with the raise, like don't raise yourself before Titan's Tumult LOLZ.

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We don't care about our animations

Raising targets and the inability to heal them for...5 seconds afterward

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YOU don't care about your animation. I care.
I don't want my character still waving staff, but my target already healed before it's done. That doesn't look right, and downright weird. The current state is fine.

As for raising, it's easy to time: only start casting heal/whatever when you see the character HP bar has some white in it.
And the additional wait-time for raising, nothing wrong with that. It makes players need to have situation awareness about who's raising who at where. Healer should make macro with some <se.#> to alert the target being raised.
Nothing you can't overcome with a bit more awareness and focus.

SE, please don't keep feeding everything on silver-plate to players...

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Originally Posted by SilverRhythm

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From Raise perspective,

To die again after being raised because of the unnecessary delay for raising as well, yes gets very frustrating, and a 30% penalty implemented after 2nd raise. I guess SE is telling us to also time ourselves with the raise, like don't raise yourself before Titan's Tumult LOLZ.

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Raise is fine as it is. People need more fight awareness thats all. Same goes for the healers. Be smart about the position where you cast raise because thats where the person will end up. Short Garudafight example. Don't stand near the other players when casting raise. So the chances of the revived guy eating Garudas random aoe attack is much lower.

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTheGuest

YOU don't care about your animation. I care.
I don't want my character still waving staff, but my target already healed before it's done. That doesn't look right, and downright weird. The current state is fine.

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Here's the thing. Cure spells have a cast time, as do nukes. You will always finish waving your staff before your target is healed.

The same is true for all GCD abilities, and as I've stated before.

You also can't use an ability while *casting* a spell because you can't do 2 actions at once, so your hand-waving is safe.

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As for raising, it's easy to time: only start casting heal/whatever when you see the character HP bar has some white in it.

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You are simply wrong. I raise a person. They get up, hp appears, I start to cast a cure and the cure is deflected to me, and yet my pet can heal them before I can.

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SE, please don't keep feeding everything on silver-plate to players...

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I just want you to know that you're saying "SE, please don't give players responsive and reliable combat that other mmos had 6, 10 years ago."

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Anyone may call XI's combat whatever they wish, but it was more responsive than this. Never once playing paladin, white mage, scholar, red mage, even friendly blm, did I see a cure go off and a target die to a hit that did less damage than the cure.

XI knew how to blend particle effects. You could stack berserk, aggressor, and warcry in the same macro and while it wasn't fast enough to see all 3 at once, 1 would overlap with 2 and 2 would with 3. Someone else's Warcry, -Circle effect (lol), Rampart, or Pt/Shell did not interrupt my character's current animation.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

This thread has little/nothing to do with red telegraphed areas and the latency issues relating

First, I love the design of the combat. Tera (a "AAA" mmo) and other AA titles did it better with free-targeting, but I like, design-wise, how this combat is done. I like the dancing and dodging.

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Stopped at that point.. I will not go into Tera's Combat and how blunt it is, but there is something you need to realize before comparing it to FFXIV.

Tera = Action Combat
FF ARR = Passive Combat

2 different Types of Combat, so you are basically comparing Karate to Judo and complain about Judo not being offensive enough.

Dear SE: Please keep it the way it is, I enjoy the challenge of anticipation while others squirm while they play off their twitch reactions.

~Thank You!

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Originally Posted by Nero

Stopped at that point.. I will not go into Tera's Combat and how blunt it is, but there is something you need to realize before comparing it to FFXIV.

Tera = Action Combat
FF ARR = Passive Combat

2 different Types of Combat, so you are basically comparing Karate to Judo and complain about Judo not being offensive enough.

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I was only pointing out that I like very active combat. I like moving around, I like dodging. I like when I'm responsible for the damage I take more often than how lucky I am on mitigation (blocking, parry, dodge) proc'ing. Both games had that and I like it.

raise animation fix coming soon, so thats 1 off your list

My favorite example of this was during a HM Garuda fight.

DF group was having a hard time, a wipe was imminant, but we had lv3 LB and I was a BRD and still near full health. (<3 Quelling Strikes)

2nd to last player dies, leaving only me. I pop Healer LB3, see everyone start to get up, party's health bars all white... Garuda kills me... fade to black and resets the fight.

The whole party still has raise sickness except for me.


So, the game knew they were raised. But still reset the grid. Why?

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Originally Posted by tymora

It will look awfully retarded to have animations be cut off halfway and start another one just to be cut off again.
Your character will look like he/she is having an epileptic fit - Immersion much?

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Get a mnk to lvl 50 for dragon kick. The animation is ~3 seconds long and it gets cut off every time I do a skill as soon as GCD is finished. Is it epileptic and weird looking? Dunno, I don't notice it because I don't pay attention to the animations. I prefer to pay attention to things that will keep me alive like avoiding bad things or my threat, or making sure I am doing all my abilities correctly to ensure I am doing max dps. Maybe if more people did that as opposed to watching at the beautiful animations, people would play better thus making everyone's life more enjoyable in the game. Truth be told, I would prefer it if the animations were something simple like a punch or a kick or a flip and that's it for the move. No need for fancy 3 second long animations. As for the off gcd abilities, they need to make those instant and have instant effect just as the op suggests. Trying to stun a 2.5 sec cast with a warrior is really tough when the animation takes 2 seconds and the stun doesn't go off until the animation is finished.

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Originally Posted by Genesiser

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That's fine and all, you're entitled to that opinion.

However, I don't think it takes much to see the animations while being aware of your virtual environment. I can appreciate animations while not staring at them in awe.
It's pretty condescending to assume people can't do both. You still have to watch your character's area for aoe and such. If you're not able to see the animations just as a byproduct of being environmentally aware, then you have serious tunnel vision.


I actually like that my abilities aren't all a button press away. There's a balance between game mechanics and trying to keep the fantasy of what you're playing. If you only cared about the former, you might as well just be solving math problems in a corner since that's all it is.
It should just be taken as granted that the ability is done after you character has completed their animation. That's what it takes to get the effect you're looking for. That just means things take longer to get done than you pressing a button. Is that really so unreasonable?

The game just needs to be played with that design in mind. I can understand people complaining about the lag which is an artificial delay, but not the animations which is a design decision.
It just takes being a little more prepared in most cases. Combat in this game ends up being more about timing than button mashing as a result. You more to consider than smashing your keys.
I think it's refreshing.

Taking into account the other thread that makes a fairly compelling case that SE relies on server side processing, that would mean you HAVE to wait for all animations to complete. Hence, the claim that animation lockout was working as intended.

It used to bother me that my instants were really just off-GCD, but I've grown used to it.

Personally, it seems like a lot of the complaints stem from simply bad play. I play a healer, so I understand that its not simply doing things fast but its doing things at the right time. Even with the change to res, you will still have to rely on the target to res at the right time - particularly on things like Titan HM.

I enjoy the combat. To each their own though.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

It won't be the death of the game, the lack of content will be.

Though I will say the combat is very sluggish when compared to other MMOs, but it's to be expected and I don't fault the game for it.

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Lack of content.... The game is like 4 months ago

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

1. Taking into account the other thread that makes a fairly compelling case that SE relies on server side processing, that would mean you HAVE to wait for all animations to complete. Hence, the claim that animation lockout was working as intended.

2. Personally, it seems like a lot of the complaints stem from simply bad play. I play a healer, so I understand that its not simply doing things fast but its doing things at the right time. Even with the change to res, you will still have to rely on the target to res at the right time - particularly on things like Titan HM.

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1.) Not really, the game can do anything it wants. They could allow you to execute every action at once, within a single second. You could, as some bosses can, cast multiple spells at once. Server or client limitiation has little impact here.

2.) Yes indeed, it's important for the healer to raise from a safe spot and the dps to time it. Certain fights are more difficult to do this in than others, but it's all about coordination, and common sense. Things can happen like the freshly raised target being the victim of land slide, but these things happen.

I have an understanding of game programming and client/server communications. I'm no professional so I keep my critques to a minimum, but take care not to give them a lot of leeway on bad design choices.

Things like not being able to stack macros are a sort of an additional straw to break the camel's back, there's not so bad in themselves, but are frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Kazamoto

My favorite example of this was during a HM Garuda fight.

DF group was having a hard time, a wipe was imminant, but we had lv3 LB and I was a BRD and still near full health. (<3 Quelling Strikes)

2nd to last player dies, leaving only me. I pop Healer LB3, see everyone start to get up, party's health bars all white... Garuda kills me... fade to black and resets the fight.

The whole party still has raise sickness except for me.


So, the game knew they were raised. But still reset the grid. Why?

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Were they in the raise animation? if so that's probably why no one was active to aggro her and she didn't have aggro on anyone cause they had died so the fight reset.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

I have an understanding of game programming and client/server communications. I'm no professional so I keep my critques to a minimum, but take care not to give them a lot of leeway on bad design choices.

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Said every forum poster ever who was unable to clearly articulate and defend an argument.

Care to explain why the animation lockout exists as it does? Do you *really* think that was a development CHOICE? Or is it a side-effect of server infrastructure?

They were, but agro or no, it either should have continued the attempt (she was at 3%) or NOT given the party raise sickness.

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Originally Posted by Kazamoto

They were, but agro or no, it either should have continued the attempt (she was at 3%) or NOT given the party raise sickness.

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You encountered a rare scenario. The more common thing happens on Titan HM when the party wipes and you are stuck in a gaol.

If the boss is unable to immediately target a party member, the fight restarts. This will be a bit worse when invulnerability is applied to the res animation (depending on how its implemented).

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

Said every forum poster ever who was unable to clearly articulate and defend an argument.

Care to explain why the animation lockout exists as it does?

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I've made my defense for my argument. I also tried not to tout that I have some deep understanding. I do understand the basics of what's going on, but as I said early in the thread, I'm no professional at game programming.

There is no reason animation lockout exists beyond choice. Literally, the data transmission for notifying the server of an ability is very small. Animation lockouts exist literally because they think we're actually watching our animations in combat. I'm certainly not and I can't imagine that anyone is very intently. Everyone is watching their feet and boss casting bars. Everyone should be periodically checking the chat log, at least, and healers and tanks keep an active eye on player health bars.

The packets, apparently, are even smaller than other mmos, which means they should be faster. The skimpiness of the packets is how some of the hacking is done, apparently.

Assuming no animation lock, the client<->server transmission time means I could press two abilites back to back and see one animation start .2 (or whatever re-press time) seconds into the other. The game is not incapable of sending multiple packets and receiving them at the same time. Animation lock is nothing but flavor. Sardine ice cream is nothing but flavor, doesn't mean it's good.

I had hoped you'd have a counter to my argument, Bagel. (An argument bagel is like a compliment sandwich)

While not what I want, imagine if abilities like Bene and HG still had their uninterruptible (><) animation but the effect went of immediately. This changes nothing for the people that think animations are important, but changes everything for the people that don't want to die even though it was used in time.

If this was a game like WoW, a skill that's used "in time" would be anywhere before the moment that it is absolutely required.
For FFXIV, to use something "in time", you have to take into account the preparation action animation.

If you fail to account for it, you did not use the skill in time.

Case in point, the tank LBs are instant (at least up to level 2, never had the chance to use tank LB3).
Healer LB and attacker LB have that preparation because it was designed to have it.

Note the word "instant" in the skill tooltip refers to the cast time.
For some games, that means you press you get. But not so in FFXIV.
In FFXIV, you get a cast time, and before that cast time you have a preparation motion.
(Limit Break doesn't even have a cast time categorization on its tooltip, so it was never presented to be instant anyway)

Again, this is a design choice.

I have no problems with people lobbying to wipe this design out, it's up to the developers to decide.
But please don't keep saying "instant should be instant", because it is instant cast.
Please stop saying it is flawed or is bugged or due to server infrastructure or that "its common sense" etc.

Attacking the implementation is no way to lobby a change to a core design.

Nothing about not being instant is bugged, I realize it's a design choice, however it is flawed. It's a bad design choice, and thus it is flawed.

Take bene for example. This is to be used when a healer is losing control of a situation, needs a second. They're chaincasting spells. The time they take to pop a bene, they expect it to go off.

And like I said, the warrior stun doesn't appear to connect until the axe-roundhouse lands. That's either intentional or part of network delays.

I just think... when you mimic so much of a game because they did it so right that you want to copy it, you should consider why they made each of their choices. This game has extremely fast-paced combat, and as such, the interface should be the pinnacle of smooth reactions.

Can't sleep, clowns will eat me.

who you calling "we" i care about animation =.=

Finally! A game that doesnt make me look like my character TWITCH from all the abilities i blaze off!


Sigh i tell u kiddies are asking stuff to get thing more and more easier, when the game it self is too easy already.

Yes, I apologize, some people seem to really like animations. I can't imagine you're truly seeing animations for what they are in all the combat. You're seeing a blend of it all.

Still, asking for abilities to properly take effect is not asking for easier, it's asking for reliable.

When I start pressing the brakes in my car, I want to start slowing down. If I slam on them, I want my car to stop as close to immediately as it can, and I especially want the breaks to work every time I press them. These kids today, wanting driving to be reliable, right?