FC Training

Hi Guys,

I consider myself an above average player, I don't play a TON, but I was able to survive Titan on my first try while DPSing on WAR, etc. I have 2 relics, I PUGed both of my Titan kills. My FC is really struggling with Titan (dodging, memorizing the order). We are very casual, but we'd like to progress. I refuse to move on to Coil without them until I have exhausted every resource to try to us through.

Two main questions:

1 - What is the difficulty of Titan vs. Coil, if we have members who are struggling with Titan, are we completely screwed going into Coil, or does it stay pretty consistent with that fight?

2 - Are there anything like Guildhests or the like that we can use to practice encounters in Coil? Like fights with similar mechanics but less severe consequences?

Thanks folks!

Titan is a mild gear check for all classes but more importantly is a BIG awareness check.

IMHO Turn One is easier than Titan in terms of execution. You will need two decently geared tanks, healers on their game, and someone capable of bringing a target down to sub 10% hp without killing it reliably. If you have those things you can kill Caduceus.

If people cannot live through Titan they are completely screwed on Turn Two (ADS).

Coil 1 Caduceus hits harder than Titan on a more constant basis. Has 2 ways of doing which is the burn method requiring capable DPS and decent tanks, or the slime method which involves a good preferably BLM kiter.

Coil 2 will test your interrupt awareness, debuff awareness not only for yourself, and capability to keep cool DPS and dodge red indicators. Also has tank swap test.

Coil 3 is irrelevant

Coil 4 test your positional awareness and snap threat capabilities along with your optimal CD usage.

Coil 5 is a hard gear Check on your MT, a DPS check on OT and other DPS, awareness and reaction test followed by execution test.


Conclusion if you have people who can't do Titan with their eyes closed, you might have some problem even killing the first mini boss in Coil.

In Titan, you only have to worry about 1 thing at a time, (his rotation is script).
but in coil, espically Turn 2 require multitask of everyone in your party (mostly, may exclude malee dps). Tank will be require to take turn taking boss and dodge red circle and take turn silenting the boss(unless u got 2 BRD). all range will have to dodge all the red and passing the rod (healer have to do all that and keep tank alive as well ><).

I agree with most of what people are saying. The only thing I'll add is, its generally not as movement intensive as Titan (in the sense of the whole party dodging constant plumes/bombs/landslide), but there is definitely movement factors that aren't on script, and in general are very unforgiving (ADS piercing laser).

Honestly though, Turn 1 is mostly coordination, if you can down Titan I see no reason you couldn't work on and down Turn 1 with some practice. I've seen members dieing to Titan near every fight, make through Turns 1 and 2 without *many* issues. Its still something that will cause wipes most likely, but if you are tight nit group of friends, I'd stick it through, its worth it. Plus eventually they'll be able to do at least beginning stages of coil with ease as they get mechanics down from enough attempts.

Thanks for the responses so far, all - It is the heavily intense movement and punishing damage from screwing up that is causing us to fail, maybe a BIT of undergearing but I think everyone is full DL with Garuda at this point...

As for gear checks on tanks in Coil, I think I am covered, 6.3kish with food and I'll have my Curtana +1 on Monday.

My hope is that its something quirky about the Titan movement that is screwing everyone up - they can all dodge surprise red no problem in 4 man dungeons and we eat Garuda alive with 1 tank 1 healer, 1 healer in cleric stance, and 5 dps. I guess part 2 of my question still remains, i.e. is there anything that can prepare us for Coil fights that deal with similar mechanics. Also, I'd love to tap your guys' knowledge on our group make-up. I know we are going to need a bard badly, but currently, we have the following available:

1 - Geared PLD / Semi-gear WAR (me)
2 - Geared DRG / Semi-geared WAR/PLD
3 - Geared WHM
4 - Geared WHM / Semi-geared SMN
5 - Geared BLM
6 - Geared MNK/Semi-geared BLM
7 - Geared SCH/Semi-geared BRD
8 - A PLD just left us.

What are the musts? I know we NEED a second main'ed tank, but do we need 2 BRDs too? How gimped are we currently, and what would be a good way to solve our class mix problems?

If you do not have Bard in your group, you may have problems interrupting ADS High Voltage which will screwed up everyone in the group

Unless you think you (PLD) and another PLD can interrupted this attack (use Spirit Within, off GCD) Also your healer MP will depleted from healing very fast

So having Bard(s) make your life easier in Coil so find one or create one immedieately

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

I consider myself an above average player.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

I was able to survive Titan on my first try while DPSing on WAR.

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Above average players TANK Titan with WAR.
Sorry but i had to say it, going DPS is the easy route. It might be needed but nothing to be proud about.

To answer your question this game is about memorizing and dodging. If your FC cant dodge on Titan they cant beat ADS.
It takes practice and patience and - for some - a VPN.

Train them on your WAR, when they are able to keep you alive AND dodge everything on Titan, they are ready for the coil.

Lol, just ignore Maqaqa, no reason to be throwing out shots. Except the practice and patience part of course.

You definitely will want that other MT (pld will make life easier till 2.1 changes *crosses fingers*). Up to Turn 4 its more of a co-tank, so they'll both want some gear, yours looks fine. You don't need uber gear, we pulled a member through (DD smn) in AK gear and Garuda book before as well. I first tanked Cad split with my warrior (I was actually subbing in for other tank, before I started MTing), in full AK, DL accessories, and Garuda's axe... so ya. It wasn't ideal (certainly not to my standards) but I was subbing so meh. Our healers were relic +1 and full DL/Vanya, as well as most our DD being Relic+1 and full DL. DD should definitely have Relic at least. Its doable without, but no where near ideal.

Our group has done with 2 bards, and 1 bard. You only need 1 as long as you got a paladin who can do all their normal tankly duties, and spirit's on rotation. Its a challenge when learning the fight, but the variety is nice with group composition. ADS (Turn 2) is a little hard with 2 melee just fyi, but there are strats out there for it somewhere I'm sure. Turn 4 its nice to have 2 phys damage and 2 magic damage, but again doable without.

We've done some with whm x2, but find whm/sch to be ideal, if you can convince one of them to try it you can have the current sch go brd. Either way, that is something to work out with the group.

Anyways, just my 2 cents. My question is, you seem to have "Geared" people, but still trying to get Titan win, do most of your guys have Relic? Are you trying to get the win for just a few or for most the group? You might try bringing in some experienced/geared Titan people to help with the win. If you have 3-4 messing up consistently, its going to make Titan pretty darn hard, but if you can minimize it to 1-2 at a time, you can carry them further. This will in turn give more people in your group relics, and also better chances at Titan as you attempt in the future. Best of luck either way!

just FYI: Turn 2 is a lot easier when you dont have malee DPS.

Ignore me if you want, taking the DPS role with a tank isnt something that define a player as "above average".
Im just being 100% honest.
I was willing to do the same out of desperation, thanks god it wasnt needed.

Tanking Titan as either PLD or WAR isn't difficult and everything you think you're doing in that fight is all the work of the healers. WAR is only slightly harder because it has less to work with. DPSing as WAR is significantly harder as you have to actually MOVE and keep up your DPS rotation, going in and out of Defiance when you can blow an Inner Beast/Unchained, keeping Berserk on cooldown (+ saving it for heart phase), keeping Internal Release on cooldown, not spamming BB combo and out threating the MT by a mile, etc. It's... honestly nowhere near as difficult to tank it as it is to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Maqaqa

Sorry but i had to say it, going DPS is the easy route. It might be needed but nothing to be proud about.

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I have tanked Titan on WAR (7200hp), I just meant the first time I ever had to dodge the mechanics as a non-tank in Titan, I lived through the whole thing - I just used WAR because I didn't have another DPS class @ 50. I have tanked Titan to completion on PLD and WAR. I get what you are saying, though - and thank you for the advice : D

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Originally Posted by Traek

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I've spent a decent amount of Myth on my PLD (AF2 chest and helm), but I would LOVE to switch to WAR if they fix it in 2.1 - so if we find either tank I'd be ecstatic to adjust, given 2.1 is all I ever dreamed.

I'm pretty confident I can coordinate silencing on rotation along with tanking - so I guess one BRD will be good.

I have relics on both my tanks, DRG has the DRG PLD and WAR relic, SCH has SCH and BRD, MNK has MNK relic and just needs titan for BLM relic, WHM #1 has WHM relic and is on titan for SMN relic... WHM 2 and BLM are not relic'd. There are consistently 2-3 people that have issues on Titan. Our next night I have a couple people that will help, and we will try to get it done. I think the most alarming this is that if we beat Titan tonight, we couldn't reasonably go to coil with our current group make-up.

Well sounds like you have some people in there solid enough for Titan. I will take a slight guess that a healer going down might be bottle-necking your Titan. If that is the case, try a three heal combo. If your DD is respectable, you can down Titan heart with 4 DD pretty easy (especially with ST LB), helps to have 1 healer DD during heart phase if you are lacking. Sometimes finagling people around is all it needs. I was helping some FC members with it and wiped 7 straight times, we switched one guy to heals (3 heal) and 1 shot it the next time. Try to find where you group is lacking and get creative with it if need be. Also, try carrying a few people through with your mostly relic group, then go back for secondary classes, maybe 2 at a time. We had a large group of people in the FC we did this with.. 3 Titan wins in a row (we actually were doing~ 3 at a time) and got a bunch of alts and FC people cycled through for their win.

I'm sure you have thought of some of this, just throwing it out there in case.

I'm pretty pumped for 2.1 as well.. I've been saving all my myth for warrior so I can swing back on it if Pld/Pld isn't so much easier on the group anymore. If you plan on going Warrior with buffs, I'd make sure you got a Pld as a co-tank for when you make the switch. I can't see them making significant enough changes where War/War will be desired. In just general outline of CDs and tanking style, you'll most likely want at least 1 Pld.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Tanking Titan as either PLD or WAR isn't difficult and everything you think you're doing in that fight is all the work of the healers. WAR is only slightly harder because it has less to work with. DPSing as WAR is significantly harder as you have to actually MOVE and keep up your DPS rotation, going in and out of Defiance when you can blow an Inner Beast/Unchained, keeping Berserk on cooldown (+ saving it for heart phase), keeping Internal Release on cooldown, not spamming BB combo and out threating the MT by a mile, etc. It's... honestly nowhere near as difficult to tank it as it is to DPS.

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Hmmm i dont remember saying tanking Titan was difficult...
Luckily the OP understood what i meant. ;)
And i suggest him to use a PLD/PLD setup for the first coil runs, and switch to PLD/WAR when they are more experienced and geared (no need to wait 2.1).
It takes some runs, some gear and experience (for all the party) but at some point the war will turn from a burden to a resource.

edit: i forgot to say... put your SCH on the WAR, especially while tanking Caduceus.

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Originally Posted by Maqaqa

Hmmm i dont remember saying tanking Titan was difficult...
Luckily the OP understood what i meant. ;)
And i suggest him to use a PLD/PLD setup for the first coil runs, and switch to PLD/WAR when they are more experienced and geared (no need to wait 2.1).
It takes some runs, some gear and experience (for all the party) but at some point the war will turn from a burden to a resource.

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I do agree with this, for sure. Its also a good reason to start out with x2 BRDs till you get rotations down. It really just makes life easier, even if they aren't necessary. Since you are stretching for one BRD OP, just go with that expecting some extra work on your part for silence. Again it all comes down to practice and patience, I'm confident your group can get it if you sit and grind out some practice.

So here's an update, and thanks for all the input, again.

We had a chat last night, and picked up an 8th member. This is NOT ideal, but we are going to have to work with it:

PLD
PLD
WHM
WHM
DRG
MNK
BRD
BLM

That's the best I could finagle in terms of people switching classes. The SCH changed to BRD for us, he's almost full DL and Relic, the +1 Dragoon is changing to PLD for us, who is also full DL and Relic.

Can we do ADS with BRD/PLD/MNK sharing the silences? I ran a spreadsheet and BRD/PLD doesn't make it past the 3rd Paralyze. I don't mess with MNK beyond getting Featherfoot for my WAR, but he told me there is an instant animation GCD Silence they have - can we just time it with the MNK and have the BRD play TP to mitigate the high MNK silence TP cost? Or is that dumb?

Two WHMs, no SCH. Me no like!
It can work but WHM + SCH is really a better combo.
You can do ADS no problem with BRD/PLD/MNK especially with 2 PLDs.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

can we just time it with the MNK and have the BRD play TP to mitigate the high MNK silence TP cost? Or is that dumb?

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I think PLD and BRD are enough to silence with monk as backup, but im not 100% sure.

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Originally Posted by Maqaqa

Two WHMs, no SCH. Me no like!
It can work but WHM + SCH is really a better combo.
You can do ADS no problem with BRD/PLD/MNK especially with 2 PLDs.

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I know, but I got what I got - we're casual, people aren't going to put in 40 hours of work to switch from one healing class to the other.

2 PLDs... Doesn't one need to break off and off-tank?

On ADS both PLDs are going to tank and trade hate every 3 debuff stacks, so while one is tanking the other one is always ready to silence.
Might be tricky to coordinate the first couple of times but its nothing you cant handle with TS and/or macros.

I understand you are casual and i dont like "optimal setups" (as a war i dont even fit those lol) but if one of your whms is willing to level SCH, at his own pace, without any hurry, well it would benefit your party on the long run, keep in mind they share most of the gear so its one less thing to take care of... just an advice ^^.

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Originally Posted by Maqaqa

On ADS both PLDs are going to tank and trade hate every 3 debuff stacks, so while one is tanking the other one is always ready to silence.
Might be tricky to coordinate the first couple of times but its nothing you cant handle with TS and/or macros.

I understand you are casual and i dont like "optimal setups" (as a war i dont even fit those lol) but if one of your whms is willing to level SCH, at his own pace, without any hurry, well it would benefit your party on the long run, keep in mind they share most of the gear so its one less thing to take care of... just an advice ^^.

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Ah yeah, figured it had to do with Provoke switching. The other tank and I are probably the most focused, so it could work - the long animation time + PS3 on SW scares me though : D at least its easy to anticipate due to the rotation.
Yeah, one of the WHMs actually has a 50 ACN...not sure how vehemently she wants to play WHM though...it will have to be something that I propose at some point.

Ya know...its one thing to (pretty much) require a 4-5 specific classes per encounter when you are bringing 24-40 people on a raid...but when you are bringing 8?... Kinda Sketch-McGetch SE...

I know it suxxx, i have a 50 PLD that im hiding so im not required to play instead of WAR *dodges stones*

However a good setup is going to save you a lot of time and headaches, and this is especially useful for a casual party without too much time to waste.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Ah yeah, figured it had to do with Provoke switching. The other tank and I are probably the most focused, so it could work

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This is going to be tricky the first times. Be careful to not use any aggro tool/style after the other PLD hit provoke; its too easy to get hate back and then provoke is on CD. On top of that you need to check yours and his debuffs and to manage the silence rotation. Gonna be fun :D

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Originally Posted by Maqaqa

...Gonna be fun :D

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Yes. Indeed it is.