Limsa Lominsa oathbreakers?

So I ran through Titan NM to help random people in the duty finder and watched the cutscene over again to notice that the Kobolds called the people of Limsa Lominsa "Oath breakers." Now, I wasn't around for 1.0 and there are a few details that I'm unclear about as far as that goes. What oath did the people of Limsa Lominsa break with the Kobolds that would raise enough ire for them to constantly summon Titan to wreck them?

This is actually brought up in the quests leading up to Titan. Basically, Limsa Lominsa had a peace treaty with the kobolds... but then they got greedy, and took some of the kobolds' land, breaking the treaty. Basically, in the little war the kobolds and Limsa Lominsans have, the nation struck first!

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

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Is that really how it was explained? I remember it being explained differently.

From my memory, that is what happened the first time Titan was summoned. When the Company of Heroes took him down, they signed another treaty. This time, Maelstrom receiver intel that he was being summoned again. This effectively broke the treaty in Maelstrom's eyes. Yet, he wasn't summoned until the player shows up which implies that it was done in self defense.

I could be remembering it incorrectly. If I'm not, then it means that someone in Maelstrom wanted to break the treaty and used the Scions to do it. Someone possibly of Ascian origin. It would explain why Y'shtola felt the need to investigate The Navel further.

The landgrab happened BEFORE the events of ARR, prompting the present-day animosity between the two groups. You are not lied to during the quest, the intel is indeed accurate. In the eyes of the kobolds though, they are fighting back to dissuade further attacks from Limsa Lominsa. Basically, Limsa kicked a hornet's nest and ran to the Scions when they started to sting.

If you watch the titan 2.0 video it appears that the Kobald aren't tempered and titan isn't summoned until you arrive and the kobald state that you are invading their territoy and they want to defend it. Titan gets summoned tempers no one, and only attacks you because you threatened "his kind" If we look at the story we leave ramuh alone because unlike ifrit/garuda he isn't trying to take over anything or expand his reach. Titan didn't even temper anyone, and was purely trying to defend his people from us overstepping our bounds, yet we kill him why? why are we so evil?

As I recall, we're sent there because we know they've been gathering resources in order to summon Titan. While Ramuh isn't trying to take over anything, Titan is... sorta. Since Limsa Lominsa broke the treaty by performing an act of aggression against the kobolds, the kobolds then feel justified in fighting back. Limsa Lominsa knows the kobolds will strike back, it's just a matter of when. And they'd rather the kobolds not hit back with a primal.

But titan is more sentient and less primal then shivah and ifrit. He doesn't rage he just wants to protect. He doesn't temper as he feels his people will support him of their own free will for his tidings to them. I don't think titan or the kobald would have attacked Limsa Lominsa and unfortunatly the deserve it instead of being selfish and treat the beastmen poorly, unlike with Ramuh who has slaves everywhere and is already draining aether... It doesn't match up I feel like I was sent to do Limsa Lominsa's dirty work and clean up their mess and we are just being used.

Yeah, Limsa's a bunch of jerks. There's a reason I stick to the Twelveswood. Especially after all the crap I saw picking my GC back in 1.0.

Doesn't Admiral mkjberubv(forgot how to spell her name) admit that Limsa overstepped their bounds, but cannot afford to have Titan wrecking them?

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Doesn't Admiral mkjberubv(forgot how to spell her name) admit that Limsa overstepped their bounds, but cannot afford to have Titan wrecking them?

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Yeah. When you do this quest she's basically like 'Yeah, we f***ed up big time and don't have the ability to do anything about it. Take care of this, will you?"

Regardless of how benevolent Titan seems or whoever broke the treaty first, the reason the player is dispatched by Minfilia to take Titan down is because he is a Primal period. All the Primals are a threat to Hydaelyn's existence, being aetheric sponges who absorb aether each time they're summoned. Ultimately, there is a bigger picture here than just petty border squabbles between a bunch of barely-reformed pirates and the beastmen - the whole world's future is at stake.

That whole section is super fishy to me and it really made no since why we left ramuh alone. Also when you kill a primal it's aether returns to the life stream and it's able to be re-summoned so why not just leave titan alone until he actually becomes a problem like we do with ramuh? They even say since ramuhs not harshly tempering and not out taking over the lands that we should just let him be for now until he becomes threat because its better for our resources and the planet, and that the sylph could respond badly and just make him stronger then before, as he is not a threat to Eorzea yet they found no need to risk angering him and the black sylph, so why aggravate the Kobald forcing them to summon titan when we could have left them alone like we did with sylphs?

If the aether returns to the lifestream why does it matter if hes smned as long as he is killed? or lock them in crystals like odin since the tech existed at one point in 12woods to do so.

No one thought it strange that the Kobald seem un-tempered and only call forth Titan because they don't think they can protect themselves? unlike the others who were obviously tmpred. They summon titan and run away, all the tmpred people stay around or get absorbed usually.T and R's scenario are so different then the others, that it really stands out to me as being weird and holding some major clues. The scions are to judge for themselves whether we actually see Titan as a threat and are supposed to be completely independent of the 3 nations, as we are not at the mercy of a nation so why do we blindly kill titan for one? Their may have been non movie npc text I missed that I can't figure out how to go back and relive, I really feel like their are some major answers hidden within these stories.

Ramuh was ultimately judged not to be a threat because of the political schism in sylvan society - after the player rescues the sylph elder from Toto-Rak, the untempered sylphs vowed to continue to uphold their alliance with Gridania, and it was shown the tempered ones will only show venom (i.e. summon Ramuh), if the Sylphlands/Moonspore Grove is directly threatened. As Gridania already treats the forest with reverence, there would be little need for any Gridanian to need to enter that part of the Shroud, hence it was decided that Ramuh could be ignored for the time being.

Additionally, resources has a lot to do with it as well - the Scions only had so many members to investigate the Primals, and hence were dispatched to deal with the ones regarded as the most threatening (it's why they also left the sahagin alone - as their intelligence indicated the sahagin lacked a crystal supply to summon Leviathan, so there was no point to stir up that hornet's nest).

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

That whole section is super fishy to me and it really made no since why we left ramuh alone. Also when you kill a primal it's aether returns to the life stream and it's able to be re-summoned so why not just leave titan alone until he actually becomes a problem like we do with ramuh? They even say since ramuhs not harshly tempering and not out taking over the lands that we should just let him be for now until he becomes threat because its better for our resources and the planet, and that the sylph could respond badly and just make him stronger then before, as he is not a threat to Eorzea yet they found no need to risk angering him and the black sylph, so why aggravate the Kobald forcing them to summon titan when we could have left them alone like we did with sylphs?

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We don't leave Ramuh alone. The Sylphs summoned him and he's no longer there. If the purple Sylphs were summoning him as the others we'd be punching him(as we probably will in 2.2)

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

If you watch the titan 2.0 video it appears that the Kobald aren't tempered and titan isn't summoned until you arrive and the kobald state that you are invading their territoy and they want to defend it. Titan gets summoned tempers no one, and only attacks you because you threatened "his kind" If we look at the story we leave ramuh alone because unlike ifrit/garuda he isn't trying to take over anything or expand his reach. Titan didn't even temper anyone, and was purely trying to defend his people from us overstepping our bounds, yet we kill him why? why are we so evil?

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Because he would then table-flip Limsa. Kill a primal or watch Bango Zango die? If I was given the option...

But yes, Limsa started this by violating the treaty. There's even a FATE that mentions this. And Y'shtola was rather snarky about this a couple of times.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

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Originally Posted by jomoru

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Ramuh actually HAS been summoned, but has decided to stay in the Sylphlands unless provoked. The issue with the Kobolds, is that they are much more quick to aggression than the Sylphs are. The last time Titan was summoned, he DID attack Limsa Lominsa. Thus, the attack on Titan (hehe) was a knee jerk reaction once the treaty was broken. Though, they acted with the information that Titan was already summoned, so clearly something is amiss here.

I personally feel like the rest of the GCs important members will have something to do with this. Yes, there are characters in them besides their leaders. Especially for a GC like Maelstrom, I wouldn't be surprised if the second in command was in league with the Ascians to do whatever he can to discredit the Admiral and take her place. That is how the Admiral came to power in the first place. It will probably be revealed when we fight Leviathan.

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Originally Posted by Skyhound

Ramuh actually HAS been summoned, but has decided to stay in the Sylphlands unless provoked. .

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Yes Ramuh was summoned, But he's no longer there. The Sylphs are incappable of summoning him again. This is mentioned in the questline. This is very different from Titan.

When Ramuh is actually summoned again we will punch him in the face.

Wut?... Ramuh was never put to rest. He's still in the Shroud. That's in the questline. We leave him alone because our resources are stretched fin and we cannot afford a war with the Sylphs.

It is also in the questline that we stop some tempered sylphs from kidnapping Claxio to be tempered by Ramuh.

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Originally Posted by Toranja

Wut?... Ramuh was never put to rest. He's still in the Shroud. That's in the questline. We leave him alone because our resources are stretched fin and we cannot afford a war with the Sylphs.

It is also in the questline that we stop some tempered sylphs from kidnapping Claxio to be tempered by Ramuh.

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That's not what the quest says. It says that they are spreading the tempering. Ramuh is not there, and they are incapable of summoning him again. its made very clear. That is the difference between that and Titan. IF Ramuh were there we'd fight him.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

... yet we kill him why? why are we so evil?

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Because primals, bad.
Primals drain aether (lifestream)
Eorzeans need aether (life).

Some plot device like that.

Its not really a negotiable point as Eorzea depends on aether.
But the beast-races being not so smart(?) worship and are summoning Primals (who drain aether).
So there's no middle ground for talks.

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Originally Posted by VisRalis

Because primals, bad.
Primals drain aether (lifestream)
Eorzeans need aether (life).

Some plot device like that.

Its not really a negotiable point as Eorzea depends on aether.
But the beast-races being not so smart(?) worship and are summoning Primals (who drain aether).
So there's no middle ground for talks.

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But the Primals aren't draining the aether from living beings, tempering just creates more followers to provide more belief. What they're draining aether from is just crystals so it's more a case of "Oh no! The beast tribes attacked my shard shipment and now I can't cook dinner unless I start a fire the old-fashioned way!"

Life is Aether made manifest. Aether is Life. By consuming aether, the Primals are enemies of Life itself.

Think of it in terms of the Lifestream and the Mako reactors from FFVII, and follow it with Bugenhagen's explanation of the Lifestream.

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Originally Posted by Toranja

Life is Aether made manifest. Aether is Life. By consuming aether, the Primals are enemies of Life itself.

Think of it in terms of the Lifestream and the Mako reactors from FFVII, and follow it with Bugenhagen's explanation of the Lifestream.

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Yes but crafting items also consumes crystallized Aether, sometimes hundreds of shards on a single item. Using the teleport system consumes Aether.

It's not whether or not the Primals are causing a problem, it's whether Limsa has any moral high-ground on the Kobolds and in my view they don't.

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Originally Posted by VisRalis

Because primals, bad.
Primals drain aether (lifestream)
Eorzeans need aether (life).

Some plot device like that.

Its not really a negotiable point as Eorzea depends on aether.
But the beast-races being not so smart(?) worship and are summoning Primals (who drain aether).
So there's no middle ground for talks.

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More like "the beast tribes got a ritual for the Ascadians and using it tend to mess things up amazingly". It seems to be pretty clear that if the same ritual were used on one of the 12 one would create similar problems.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Yes but crafting items also consumes crystallized Aether, sometimes hundreds of shards on a single item. Using the teleport system consumes Aether.

It's not whether or not the Primals are causing a problem, it's whether Limsa has any moral high-ground on the Kobolds and in my view they don't.

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they still suck aether from everywhere else...they require crystals because the background aether is too spread out and can't sustain them alone.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Yes but crafting items also consumes crystallized Aether, sometimes hundreds of shards on a single item. Using the teleport system consumes Aether.

It's not whether or not the Primals are causing a problem, it's whether Limsa has any moral high-ground on the Kobolds and in my view they don't.

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Difference:
Primals consume aether. Nothing else consumes, burns it, things are made of it, but not consumed.
The aether used by crystals in crafting eventually returns to the land as the crafted item decays with time. Aether consumed by primals is gone, forever.

Aether is not an infinite resource, much like petrol

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Originally Posted by Skies

Difference:
Primals consume aether. Nothing else consumes, burns it, things are made of it, but not consumed.
The aether used by crystals in crafting eventually returns to the land as the crafted item decays with time. Aether consumed by primals is gone, forever.

Aether is not an infinite resource, much like petrol

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Unless it's stated otherwise in canon the aether returning to the land with the decay of the item doesn't seem like that's what's happening - if a synthesis fails the crystal shards are always consumed, even in cases when the other crafting materials survive for reuse.

I love the lore surrounding Kobolds - in the Blacksmith questline (I think, might be Armorer), they explain that the metal 'Cobalt' actually comes from the word 'Kobold,' because that's how Eorzeans first got ahold of it - by trading with the Beastmen!

The Kobolds probably regret giving us the metal now...

Moral of the story: never trade.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Yes but crafting items also consumes crystallized Aether, sometimes hundreds of shards on a single item. Using the teleport system consumes Aether.

It's not whether or not the Primals are causing a problem, it's whether Limsa has any moral high-ground on the Kobolds and in my view they don't.

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Using aether to cook cookies is one thing, depleting the land of all its aether is another.

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Originally Posted by Cycloptichorn

I love the lore surrounding Kobolds - in the Blacksmith questline (I think, might be Armorer), they explain that the metal 'Cobalt' actually comes from the word 'Kobold,' because that's how Eorzeans first got ahold of it - by trading with the Beastmen!

The Kobolds probably regret giving us the metal now...

Moral of the story: never trade.

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Crotchrot is a known collateral damage from trade.

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Originally Posted by Cycloptichorn

I love the lore surrounding Kobolds - in the Blacksmith questline (I think, might be Armorer), they explain that the metal 'Cobalt' actually comes from the word 'Kobold,' because that's how Eorzeans first got ahold of it - by trading with the Beastmen!

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Which is an interesting parallel to the actual origin of the word Cobalt. Because Cobalt originates from the german word Kobold which means a goblin. Cobalt was named such because in early ages attempt to smelt cobalt ore (which is always mixed and never pure) would often simply yield useless powder (since they thought they were smelting stuff like copper and nickel) as well as being fatal in many cases as cobalt was often found with arsenic mixed in, and the smelting creating noxious fumes.

Just throwing this out there into the aether discussion - I don't even think the aether goes into the crafted items, does it? In areas where the aether concentrates, crystals form. Sometimes, based on the geography of the area the aether is crystallizing in, one aspect of the elemental wheel becomes dominant over the others. When we use, say, a fire crystal, are we not just freeing the crystallized aether, letting it return to the environment around us, and harnessing the energy crated in the phase transition? When we use a turbine to capture the energy of the wind and then use that energy to, say, mill grain, we don't say that the grain possesses the wind we stole from the environment system.

Primals, we are told, are essences which were one diffuse amongst the aether, but were allowed to consolidate due to the imbalance of the system as a whole. When a primal consumes aether, it leaves the system. One way to look at it is that primals become crystals themselves - except ever expanding, conscious crystals that seek to leech all aether from the system and use it to gain power. This is why we are able to take the stolen aether back from Garuda by leeching it out of her and forming it into a Crystal of Light. By felling a primal, you free the stored aether in the same way that you do when using a crystal, no?

I wouldn't say that using crystals is the same as feeding primals and both are bad; I'd say that using crystals and felling primals are the same and are both good.