Fixing the Community Thinktank!

Its obvious that some people found in the duty finder (and even in built parties within a single world) are extremely rude to others.

-Some bully those that do not "fulfill" their role to a specific standard.
-Others are self focused and leave mid duty after a single wipe.
-Even more are entirely unhelpful to other players possibly new to specific content (as Klutz64 pointed out).

While its probably impossible to keep people from being as**oles to one another (internet),
What ways can you think of to reduce or deter such behavior?

(Edit: Readability, added more community problems, anecdote removed and posted in a separate post)

My own suggestion would be something along the lines of a moderator "judge", that would appear within Duties and other instances randomly, briefly view the party chat history looking for extensively mean behavior, and punish the individual(s) by slashing rewards (or chances to receive said rewards), or, alternatively, reward the victims more than the propagators. This would deter individuals from being offensive to one another, though the side effect might be reduced communication overall (and who would determine what is outright offensive behavior and what is good natured ribbing?) Comments on my idea, in addition to your own ideas, would be greatly appreciated.

Anecdote from original post:
Reason I bring this up is was that in my last WP run, Scholar was trying the best she could (hopefully :p) but was berated by the tank. First only mildly (saying she should "do better") then, at the Tonberry King, more harshly calling the her a "Sh***y healer."

I stood up for her (though she left soon after being called "sh***y"), then I was berated for sticking up for her! Not just by the tank, but also by the other DPS!

These things happen all the time and there's no way to quell it or prevent it. If I use DF and someone acts out like that, I just get another group. Since DF teams are so temporary I don't see a need to complicate it. If we needed moderators all the time we'd never get anything done since there is always drama.

Well, obviously, I believe we should try to quell or prevent it. Just because of temporary associations shouldn't give people a free pass at being douches (Most people wouldn't act that way to randoms, say in a bar or restaurant, without repercussions). Lack of acting simply perpetuates the matter, and leaving to join another group may not always be a viable option (after a 20 min DPS wait, I'd like to get through the dungeon and go tend to other matters). The moderation need not be very intrusive, merely a warning, an immediate (perhaps even mild) slash in rewards for that specific run, or even just the threat of it occurring would probably be enough to keep people from being douchey especially among those looking to maximize their reward with the least amount of time and effort.

We're not children, most of us. We don't need babysitters or protection, we just need simple means to punish players who are deliberately bringing this down.

http://i.imgur.com/xfu4I79.png

I made this for you
/thinktank

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Originally Posted by Necromunkey

Lol Sorry I had to... For you...
http://i.imgur.com/8yfRGW8.jpg

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I love it.

Make game more like FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

/thinktank

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No u di'nt!

This late into the game .. the casual gamer has already been weeded out.. Those that are left here playing this game are the typical Gaming Geeks and Nerds that all MMO's are built on. FFXI captured the console community and brought them into the world of MMO's
What we have now as FFXIV community is a mix of old FFXI players and mostly : MMO nerds from WoW and SWG and other PC type MMO's
The bully mentality comes from the FORCED to repeat the same damn Dungeon over and over and over and over and over to get your weekly cap of myth
or phy tomes. Nobody wants to spend 60 min to run a dungeon they know by past experience can be done in 30 min.
SE can combat this by que'ing up for STORY MODE PROGRESSION or option to pick
( SPEED RUN )> if you pick speed run you better know your roll or you should be flamed for not doing your job.
2.1 better address the monotony the end game has become.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

We're not children, most of us. We don't need babysitters or protection, we just need simple means to punish players who are deliberately bringing this down.

http://i.imgur.com/xfu4I79.png

I made this for you
/thinktank

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Lol Sorry I had to... For you...
http://i.imgur.com/8yfRGW8.jpg

I'm not a gaming geek. I just like playing.

This is a good case where my Sig comes into play.
I wouldn't put up for stuff like this.

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Originally Posted by aray0002

snip.

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While there may possibly be a small amount of casuals left, it is most likely there will be a large influx both come the next patch, as well as when the PS4 version is released. Nonetheless such bullying isn't limited to casuals, and seems that it can happen to anybody who isn't fully geared, or isn't running so efficiently.

Also "you should be flamed for not doing your job". No. The player may be doing their job to the extent known to them, we should help them, if only moderately, to actually "do their job" to modern consensus, not bash them for it; otherwise we may damage the userbase. Since you reference Xi, then what of the people who have never run Abbysea? Just flame them for not knowing how to proc? Monotony is not an excuse to be uncivil to others either.

Extreme Solution

Debuff them.

Simple really, if somebody has found to be a habitual griefer. Hit them where it hurts most , in their performance.

I'm certain most players won't want to turn up to coil with a -20% damage dealt or a +20% damage recieved debuff on them.

Hopefully somebody in their static/FC leader would then have a quiet word to them about their behaviour if they know it will have an adverse effect on their performance.

also means any pug that they get into will say no thanks and remove them immediately.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

This is a good case where my Sig comes into play.
I wouldn't put up for stuff like this.

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Copying your sig to put down in a post:
"Duty Finder Rules
If you are Hardcore, Don't use it. Find 3 people to party with that are at your level.
If you are hardcore and use it, don't chew someone out for playing a game.
If you get chewed out go afk, you don't need to be bullied in a game. (This messes up the bullies run, little perk.)
There will be good groups and bad groups. Lets all hope there are more good then bad."

I tend to follow something like this myself (adding sticking up for those being bullied and removing the afk part), though I'm not sure of how well it really works (for instance, going afk may just cause the tank to leave and you stuck waiting for slots to fill, or further berating)

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Originally Posted by DubstepNinja

Extreme Solution

Debuff them.

Simple really, if somebody has found to be a habitual griefer. Hit them where it hurts most , in their performance.

I'm certain most players won't want to turn up to coil with a -20% damage dealt or a +20% damage recieved debuff on them.

Hopefully somebody in their static/FC leader would then have a quiet word to them about their behaviour if they know it will have an adverse effect on their performance.

also means any pug that they get into will say no thanks and remove them immediately.

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While it could very well work, I prefer reducing reward over ability. Reducing ability might have the side effect of rage quitting for extended periods and perhaps even an exodus of griefers to other games (while a good thing for victims, a bad thing for SE).

Though to add to yours, along with debuffs, they get a symbol next to their name for all to see. (still to severe though I think....)

All MMO communities suck. It can't be fixed. Trying to "fix" an MMO community is like spraying Lysol in an alley in Dharavi. It may smell better for a second, but ultimately you're still surrounded by piss and shit.

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Originally Posted by Blarp

All MMO communities suck. It can't be fixed. Trying to "fix" an MMO community is like spraying Lysol in an alley in Dharavi. It may smell better for a second, but ultimately you're still surrounded by piss and shit.

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Now this made me laugh :) thank you.

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Originally Posted by Blarp

All MMO communities suck. It can't be fixed. Trying to "fix" an MMO community is like spraying Lysol in an alley in Dharavi. It may smell better for a second, but ultimately you're still surrounded by piss and shit.

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Perhaps the forum title "Fixing the Community" is too strong. We don't necessarily need to fix the community or its people entirely, rather just add some reason to not be entirely dickish in with total randoms. Essentially, we don't need to clean up the "piss and shit", just keep people from throwing it at each other.

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berated by the tank

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It always seems to be the tanks with the Chuck Norris complex. The number of abrasive, pig headed, gung-ho, socially inept tanks I've come across is huge compared to the number idiots I've come across from other classes.

What's my conclusion from this? Tanking seems to attract all the prime knob jockeys.

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Extreme Solution

Debuff them.

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That or permanently dye their armor bright pink.

The vas majority of people in DF are fine. Some might be undergeared, some might be not as good as you, but they are almost always either silent (ps3 players maybe, no kb) or polite.

Rudeness is rare in relative terms.

Is the community that bad?
My experience in game is often neutral (nobody says anything). There are the quitters, but, I kind of understand them. Doing the same thing for 50+ times takes the fun out of it.

I have met silent people (sometimes I'm silent myself for various reasons) I have met talkactive people I have met beginners, I have met pros, I have met rude people, I have met friendly people.
In short there are all kinds of people and for the most part the silent/friendly ones outnumber the rude players.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

I have met silent people (sometimes I'm silent myself for various reasons) I have met talkactive people I have met beginners, I have met pros, I have met rude people, I have met friendly people.
In short there are all kinds of people and for the most part the silent/friendly ones outnumber the rude players.

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They outnumber them by a large margin.

People just like to dwell on the negative. This is a known Human trait.

Just test it for yourself. Make a note of the people in your next xx dungeon runs. If you're not the reason why people are rude the. I guarantee you most people who do this will note the rude ones are a tiny minority.

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Originally Posted by zakalw3

The vas majority of people in DF are fine... they are almost always either silent or polite.
Rudeness is rare in relative terms.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

...In short there are all kinds of people and for the most part the silent/friendly ones outnumber the rude players.

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Originally Posted by zakalw3

I guarantee you most people who do this will note the rude ones are a tiny minority.

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Indeed many of the people I come across are more often silent than rude (and more often silent than friendly). However, when I do happen to come across a rude player, the person is either complaining at how bad the other players are, outright berating them, or griefing.

It is not about their number in the wild, but rather about mitigating their acts for the benefit everyone else. Though implying that there are so few is a gross misrepresentation. There are certainly enough to be a problem and enough to warrant people making threads about it XP

It's not a misrepresentation at all. Rude players are in the minority, and the minority is tiny in comparison to the massive amount of silent (ps3 mostly) and polite players.

Claiming it's different is, IMO, the misrepresentation.

I'm simply claiming it might be more than a "tiny minority" as "tiny minority" would imply only a specific statistical amount (far less than 50%), and unvariable amount of rude people. While the reality is that anyone can be rude in any of the dungeons at any given moment. So it is not a misrepresentation to say "there is enough for it to be a problem" (as I obviously think it is such) because the point of which it becomes a problem is relative, but it is a misrepresentation to apply what is essentially a statistic ("tiny minority") to a situation that we do not have hard numbers, or more evidence on.

(Essentially, for this comment, I'm arguing word strength. You say there is a tiny minority, I'm saying there is not enough evidence to make that claim, only that I, and a few others, perceive it as a problem)

Essentially, why attempt to deface an argument with an unsupported claim, stating the offending individuals are so few it isn't a problem, when the argument simply states that it is a problem whether or not there are only a few offenders. Indeed my argument was not "there are so many mean people, why" (in which case answering there isn't that many would probably be legitimate), but rather"some people are rude, how can we deter that behavior". I'm not asking what the mindshare is, only what we can do to deter the crap that already does happen.

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Originally Posted by zakalw3

The vas majority of people in DF are fine. Some might be undergeared, some might be not as good as you, but they are almost always either silent (ps3 players maybe, no kb) or polite.

Rudeness is rare in relative terms.

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I check those silent players who can't be bothered to even say hello. They're more often PC players in my experience.

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Originally Posted by aray0002

The bully mentality comes from the FORCED to repeat the same damn Dungeon over and over and over and over and over to get your weekly cap of myth

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I actually just posted a blog post about this. The game does not, at all, force anyone to reach their weekly Myth cap. If you want to, there's nothing wrong with that, but if you're doing it and not having fun, then it's time to rethink your play style. Like many other MMO's that get the "G" word thrown at them, this game is only as much of a grind as you make it.

OT: Most of the players I encounter aren't outright rude, but then majority of players are also pretty unhelpful and self-focused, which is a problem in itself.

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Originally Posted by Klutz64

Most of the players I encounter aren't outright rude, but then majority of players are also pretty unhelpful and self-focused, which is a problem in itself.

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This is a very good point and perhaps stems from the same issue. I've seen several instances (especially in CM) where new players are never advised on how to deal with a boss, approach a set of mobs, use a specific function (such as cannons), or simply left behind to fend for themselves. Lack of aid and a self-entitled mentality seem to also be more likely than rude players.

I think I'll add this point to the OP, if you don't mind.

People are people. Can't fix this community as well as anyone could fix a neighborhood or city. People lie, cheat, act obnoxious, gloat and everything in between. People are asses and friendly. Nothing can be done its just people being people.

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Originally Posted by Battlewrench

People are people. Can't fix this community as well as anyone could fix a neighborhood or city... Nothing can be done...

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This is simply not true. Another analogy: The metro area of the city I'm in has a light rail train. People are supposed to pay before boarding, tho there are some who get on without a ticket (Its pretty easy to get on without a ticket). However, every once in a while and at random, a police officer will get on and check for tickets, catching the offenders and punishing them with a fine.

My analogy, while imperfect (like all analogies), serves two roles:
1) exemplifies that any community is or can be "patrolled". In a neighborhood, people tend to "patrol" themselves; for instance most people won't berate others at random due to perceived repercussions (real or imagined, may be a matter of confrontation). On the train there is a literal, although random, patrol.

2) puts my original recommendation in an analogy form :P

To elaborate on my analogy; whats keeping people paying to get on the train? Because they're all nice people? Hell no. Its the perceived threat of punishment for riding the train without a ticket, however unlikely that punishment will be, hence people simply follow the rule.

If a minor punishment were to be applied to excessively rude people (specifically those who either grief or personally attack others), such as a decrease in rewards, there is the possibility people would act as most people do on the train. They simply avoid being punished by not being a dick. Those that chose to be mean play their chances at possibly being punished by a random "judge/patrol" (such as in my original suggestion).

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Originally Posted by Necromunkey

To elaborate on my analogy; whats keeping people paying to get on the train? Because they're all nice people? Hell no. Its the perceived threat of punishment for riding the train without a ticket, however unlikely that punishment will be, hence people simply follow the rule.

If a minor punishment were to be applied to excessively rude people (specifically those who either grief or personally attack others), such as a decrease in rewards, there is the possibility people would act as most people do on the train. They simply avoid being punished by not being a dick. Those that chose to be mean play their chances at possibly being punished by a random "judge/patrol" (such as in my original suggestion).

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LoL does something similar, but there's still a ton of douchebags. You can't fix this problem. You just have to learn to deal with it i.e. ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Necromunkey

snip

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And even then people will still try to find other ways to avoid paying and even in the neighborhood where the patrols are there is still crime. Might help but won't fix it. People still will be jerks and to some extent they have a right to be. SE can dictate what happens in their game sure but it won't fix jerks and it will still happen. Like the analogy but people will still be people.

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Originally Posted by Battlewrench

And even then people will still try to find other ways to avoid paying and even in the neighborhood where the patrols are there is still crime.

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I bet crime would go down though.

If the MVP system rewards are good, I'm sure it will make some players become more friendly but if it's just cosmetic junk, I don't see anything changing.