Tanking, I think we have a problem

So short and sweet. Need to increase the agro all tank generate by atlest x5. Main problem is Tanking with relic dps in the party. Agro problems like this keep people and me from playing our tanks. Some tanks might not have a problems but i think enough do to warrent a quick fix. If people arent tanking then people arent running dungens, If people arent doing that then well ya there isnt much else to do.

We're not going to make tanking faceroll easy. It's not even that hard as it is, and if you think tanking with Relic DPS in the party is hard, you might want to reconsider how you tank.

what is this?

What? lol. Holding hate is not even that difficult.

I'll admit, relic DPS that know what they are doing can you give you a bit of a problem as I tell them not to hold back.... if you don't have Curtana.

Get Curtana and all those "problems" go away. It's not like a relic is hard to get.

You can't hold hate againts relic dps with your own relic? Or are you saying you are having trouble holding hate when undergeared compared to the dps? If its the latter, I must question your basic reasoning skills.

Get your relic and all your problems go away. Get +1 and you can afk through dungeons.

Or you could learn how to play.

I find that if the DD's give you 10-15 sec head start. You will easily keep hate.

I'm only in Mid-game (story progress, level wise) but I find tanking as a MRD/Warrior to be easier then as a GLA class, but maybe thats just me or my current enemy level :/ I've been working the GLA for the cross-class abilities, next up is the PUG as it has some skills for my WAR :p

Healers cannot generate infinite health. DPS cannot generate infinite damage. Why should tanks be able to keep threat from anything and everything? Managing threat as a damage dealer or healer has been an MMO staple since the time of MUDs. Because WoW and many of its clones did so doesn't mean its the way to go.

Honestly, a deterministic threat system in general is kind of boring and remove immersion IMO, and its a cop-out. All these years of research on AI algorithm, and we have fully deterministic boring encounters that players fully control. Even GW2 had it better, where each boss had different AI for how they did threat (some bosses went after high defense, some after low hp, some against range, some against melee...you had to replay the encounter a bunch to figure it out, and even then there was a few random elements throw in to keep you on your toes).

The sad thing is that you suggest x5. Even if sarcastic, those are some crazy problems. If something does slip away from a relic tank, it usually inches away, and it's usually one mob in the pack that the blm critted alot on, purely by chance.

Are you marking your primary target? This helps a ton with single target dps. *Most* will attack that target first, and if you switch mark before its dead, they will go to that target next and the ones that don't are clearly just saying they don't care what you're trying to do.

/macroicon "Shield Lob"
/marking attack1 <t>
/ac "Shield Lob" <t>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shados

Managing threat as a damage dealer or healer has been an MMO staple since the time of MUDs.

---

I will say that that is not the attitude this game has. In this game, if the tank doesn't have hate, the tank did something wrong.

Example: I was offtanking a Garuda HM yesterday, so this wasn't even on me, but the whm was non-stop spamming Medica 2 from the start (yes, in her easy early 10%) and the Warrior MT could not generate enough hate. People jumped on calling him a bad tank, because clearly it was the problem.

Its not too hard with overzealous dps, just need to tab through targets more if they're going all out aoe, or not focusing target. And you can always just let em tank it and focus on what you can, though it did make me feel like a crappy tank when I had to do that back when I was still using AK gear. It does make it a pain though and you'll be doing nothing but your +enmity combo (though I guess you would anyways on pld) Also, I noticed my problem with holding hate with 'overgeared' people eased off a bit when I started getting myth pieces, so your relic isn't really needed just to hold aggro off relic'd dps, though I'm sure it helps. You can always reroll for warrior and (overpower) too! :p

In ffxi, most dds can get hate any time they want. The smart ones just know when to do it.

So whats next?

Healers need 5x more healing potency since tanks cant use their defense cooldown properly.

or DPS needs 5x more health since they cant dodge red zones or bombs in Titan?

Seems to me like the problem here lies with the OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doo

In ffxi, most dds can get hate any time they want.

---

Because in FFXI, the enmity formulas were completely @#$%ed, and had an extremely low cap that most people could reach with a weaponskill or two. Once people were capped, the mob would just spin like a top attacking the last person to hit it.

Only time this is a problem is if tank is new (gear wise) and do AK / WP in duty finder and get overgeard dps... Its always talk about tank's beeing troll's in DF, but iv seen more than once that dps have a main goal to pull agro. Emnety list is like a dps meter or e-peen Viagra to some.

I can undertand the frustration, but once u get geard up it starts to get to easy to hold agro.


Some of u guys in this thread realy have tunnel vision :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doo

In ffxi, most dds can get hate any time they want. The smart ones just know when to do it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

Because in FFXI, the enmity formulas were completely @#$%ed, and had an extremely low cap that most people could reach with a weaponskill or two. Once people were capped, the mob would just spin like a top attacking the last person to hit it.

---

You guys are talking about 2 different points in XI.

The enmity formulas worked fine at 75, but they broke at level cap increased, and the devs just never cared to try to fix it. They did tweak healing's enmity, but they were quite okay with monks, samurais, etc tanking.

In old XI, dd's could get hate, if they were geared, and dumb but they knew how to watch their hate and do the best dps they could. In new XI, yeah, you can enmity cap in a single weaponskill. Tanking hasn't existed in that game in 3 years or more, and if it weren't for supertanking (worked the same as tonberry king's adds. They attack the tank until someone does something to them), noone would have brought paladins to anything, and they didn't bring ninjas.

Even in my gear, I have a hard time holding hate off of a well-geared BLM that likes to spam Flare.

Having said that, though, I really don't think we need an increase to our enmity generation. The only time I lose hate to a DD is when I'm not playing right, or when a BLM is actually 'trying' to pull hate.

It's all about enmity control and balance!!!
This is one of the features I really like about this game.

If an overzealous DPS or Healer wants to take enmity away from the tank there is little a tank can do.
It's a balancing act between doing as much damage/healing as you can do without having the mob attack you.

The party as a whole is responsible for controlling the enmity of the mob, not just the tank.

Sure sure Lobby to keep agro the way it is, I mean there are so many tanks now as it is.....Must be the fun PLD tactic's of "Spam Flash" "Cycle through the targets" "Split your Combo". Ya sounds like awesome fun. I mean a tank having a easyer time with agro would suck cuz then they could dps a little with riot blade or somthing....Omg who would want that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RumbleCrush

Sure sure Lobby to keep agro the way it is, I mean there are so many tanks now as it is.....

---

Your justification to making tanking faceroll easy, is that there's a lack of tanks. If someone isn't good enough to play a tank in it's current condition, there's no way I'd want them tanking for me afterwards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raxion

Your justification to making tanking faceroll easy, is that there's a lack of tanks. If someone isn't good enough to play a tank in it's current condition, there's no way I'd want them tanking for me afterwards.

---

well if your using Duty finder and your not a tank am guessing noones tanking for you anyways. Atlest not for 45min cuz on my server thats about the dps wait time. But tanking is so easy i guess noone really likes fast que times, 45min nose picking must be awesome

Spam Flash, use Riot Blade to replenish your MP when necessary. I'm horribly undergeared but have gotten through with two +1 Relic DPS in group by using this simple tactic.

I haven't had any issues tanking at any stage, and I have some extremely geared and gung ho DPS in my Free Company. The only time I ever have an issue is WHM on Titan. If you're similarly geared as your DPS there is no reason for you not to be able to hold Enmity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lance_Uppercut

Spam Flash, use Riot Blade to replenish your MP when necessary. I'm horribly undergeared but have gotten through with two +1 Relic DPS in group by using this simple tactic.

---

I can hold agro but "spam Flash" isnt fun, who wants to play a job that has that as main tactic? If flash gave alot more agro then fine i can us it once or twice a pull, but spam it.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eliniell

I haven't had any issues tanking at any stage, and I have some extremely geared and gung ho DPS in my Free Company. The only time I ever have an issue is WHM on Titan. If you're similarly geared as your DPS there is no reason for you not to be able to hold Enmity.

---

Then ur extremely dps is not avoiding enough, or isent that good if its ur whm thats pressing u on emnety on titan! I migth have missunderstod ur post due to language barrier >< but something seems wrong whit that picture!
/not trolling u btw, migth be me derping hehe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RumbleCrush

Sure sure Lobby to keep agro the way it is, I mean there are so many tanks now as it is.....Must be the fun PLD tactic's of "Spam Flash" "Cycle through the targets" "Split your Combo". Ya sounds like awesome fun. I mean a tank having a easyer time with agro would suck cuz then they could dps a little with riot blade or somthing....Omg who would want that

---

I think tanking isn't for you. If you want to "dps a little", maybe you should play a Dragoon.

I have a good idea....why don't your retarded DPS hold back for a few seconds to let the tank build aggro?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karnyboy

I have a good idea....why don't your retarded DPS hold back for a few seconds to let the tank build aggro?

---

Nonono, emnety list is for bling bling ;)

But yeh, this and problem solved! Teamwork is a myth

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steeled

You guys are talking about 2 different points in XI.

The enmity formulas worked fine at 75, but they broke at level cap increased, and the devs just never cared to try to fix it. They did tweak healing's enmity, but they were quite okay with monks, samurais, etc tanking.

---

No, it wasn't. Before WOTG even came out people were already doing most end-game without PLD because after everyone hits hate cap in the alliance, the PLD isn't doing enough DPS to maintain hate or even bounce it, which made it pointless to bring when you could get a WAR/NIN who was top DPS and bounced hate just fine.

Also, don't give me crap about "well your DPS don't know when to hold back." They shouldn't HAVE to hold back, especially when there is an option that ALLOWED them to not hold back.

The OP's problem exists between the chair and keyboard/controller.

Not to side with the OP, not at all, but..

Tanking, undergeared, now is a different beast than it was 2.5 months ago, even a month ago.

My PC fried a few weeks ago, and I was offline for 2.5 weeks, and I went from seeing relics frequently enough in pugs to nearly every pug has 3-4 relics (counting mine). I honestly couldn't imagine what tanking must be like now, people demand more than undergeared tanks can put out, and some of the dps are so geared that few early crits and they can pull some aoe mobs off a geared tank (it's happened to me, and I've seen it happen). It's acceptable, it neither makes the tank bad nor the dps bad for doing it.

TL;DR: I have some sympathy for fresh 50 tanks who have no other job to siphon gear/tomes from. People don't want them in their instances and they don't want them in their Garudas (and Ifrits if both tanks are "undergeared")

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Parasoth

No, it wasn't. Before WOTG even came out people were already doing most end-game without PLD because after everyone hits hate cap in the alliance, the PLD isn't doing enough DPS to maintain hate or even bounce it, which made it pointless to bring when you could get a WAR/NIN who was top DPS and bounced hate just fine.

Also, don't give me crap about "well your DPS don't know when to hold back." They shouldn't HAVE to hold back, especially when there is an option that ALLOWED them to not hold back.

---

I had no problem maintaining hate before and during WotG, but you're right, PLD had some problems before WotG and then Mythics came out and all PLDs could get atonement and the problem was solved.

I agree that dps holding back is dumb, and enmity cap is dumb. The obvious and easy to fix to enmity cap, if it was so hard-coded into the game, would have been to divide the enmity values of everything by 10, enmity cap just climbed 10x. So what if, in that model, cure 1 was shoved right off the enmity tables, big deal.

I also think that there's a different between holding back and not cutting loose at the very start. Battle models where dps sometimes need to wait 15 seconds before they blow their load are not a bad thing, it's part of team work.

Instead, they chose to do nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RumbleCrush

Sure sure Lobby to keep agro the way it is, I mean there are so many tanks now as it is.....Must be the fun PLD tactic's of "Spam Flash" "Cycle through the targets" "Split your Combo". Ya sounds like awesome fun. I mean a tank having a easyer time with agro would suck cuz then they could dps a little with riot blade or somthing....Omg who would want that

---

I switched from PLD to MNK because tanking was TOO EASY.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubieus

I find that if the DD's give you 10-15 sec head start. You will easily keep hate.

---

10-15 seconds? The mob should be dead by then. If its a boss I can see waiting till the tank does his first combo, but a lot of fights have the dps pulling off the boss to fight adds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johnist

The OP's problem exists between the chair and keyboard/controller.

---

Oh, u sitting on OP's lap? Otherwise ur wrong

I don't understand this thread. Everybody knows the numbers and bars on the left side of the party list indicate how well you're doing damage. If you're doing the best, it even gives you an 'A' for "Awesome!"