So, my question is: the dex(with war) is useful or not? I know it could be a hard question to answer to, but i have a big doubt. I'm a lv 50 war, and a have a Hoplite tabard, since it has + 17 Skill Speed which is quite useless i was thinking about crafting a Militia Cuirass HQ and meld it with Acc, dex and par materias. The question is: am i doing the right thing? I mean, the hoplite thing is more powerful than the militia (more def, more str, more vit), so, if a meld the militia am i going to compensate the difference?
And a last question, it's better dec or par? I mean, if i have to choose between +5 dex and +5 par what sould i choose?
Thanks for answers and sorry for bad eng
DEX with War
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11-08-2013, 10:41 PMRiyosDEX with War
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11-09-2013, 12:13 AMSolduios
From what I understand parry is a better stat until you can hit a certain number in dex which I cant recall... as for the chest piece better off with D/L for now unless you can meld a bunch of parry or dex to the your crafted armor not sure if you can. Now the crafted gear is far better for dpsing as war which you are called to do sometimes and you can meld +det +crit +acc or w/e you need.
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11-09-2013, 12:18 AMStrifin
Dex is not viable because how they teir some stats, alot of warriors are going full Vit so they can push coil/titan and etc
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11-09-2013, 12:34 AMPhreak
If you wanna spend millions of gil over melding DPS accessories to push the dexterity stat walls for extra parry AND have a comfortable health pool due to having several Mythology/Allagan gear pieces then sure have a nut stacking dexterity.
Take a good look at your main armor pieces though, do you see dexterity on any of them? Unless you're sitting at something like 8000+ HP I wouldn't bother going out of your way for dexterity which is exactly what you'd have to do to push those break points for additional parry CHANCE.
The job of the tank is to eliminate chance, not rely on it. -
11-09-2013, 12:38 AMGamemako
There is no DEX tier. It has never been true and all comes from someone's misinterpretation of Ninjiitsu's data (which no-one else had previously mistaken).
That said, there's no good reason to put bonus points into DEX at this time. STR is superior all around due to adding both damage and mitigation. The question is STR vs. VIT, and that's pretty well solved as well -- people go full VIT and use accessories with both STR and VIT if they feel they can sacrifice some amount of VIT. -
11-09-2013, 12:45 AMPhreakDoes this mean that DEX just adds a slight increase for every point added? No invisible walls? So if I were to add DEX via Materia it would (however small) increase my odds of blocking/parrying?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
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11-09-2013, 12:50 AMGamemakoAdding DEX in every tested case that anyone has done has increased parry rate. The exact formula isn't known, but nobody has managed to find a case where adding DEX did not increase parry rate. That does not mean the addition of a small amount of DEX will be noticeable, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak
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11-09-2013, 01:20 AMPhreakI'm going for more of a 'I'm a tank and want to add tank related stats' than really for anything noticeable, I'm way over the accuracy goal atm and don't really like the idea of using DET or Crit materia. Though I suppose when it really comes down to it they all make little to no noticeable difference when comparing the gains/loss between the three.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
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11-09-2013, 03:45 AMRiyosI would did that but i have af+1 helm, so the DL body is a bit useless now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solduios
Anyway thanks for the answers, i alredy got a militia cuirass and i meld dex+4 and acc+6. Tomorrow i will add some other dex and maybe criticial, hoping to not fail in melding -
11-09-2013, 05:04 AMTechro
VIT number one stat for a tank for now. From what I've read online spending full attribute points on DEX only gives you a ~1% chance TO parry. Which at the point and time of where the game stands, as far as stats for tanks in particular I do not think this is a viable option. Now STR on the other hand raises the percentage of block, included and not limited to parry as well. Since parry is not a hit or miss I would say that the mitigation of the damage through strength stands as a better contender to VIT. Full ATTRB points into strength gives you a ~2-3% increase on dmg reduction off block or parry. Now if you add some materia and the STR you get from gear and you are probably at ~5-6% increase to dmg reduction. This also comes with a price, every 30 points of VIT you lose is 450hp. I am a firm believer that dmg mitigation is better than a 450hp chunk when you are getting crits on your head for much more. my opinion does not mean it is correct, it is just the way I see it.
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11-09-2013, 05:50 AMMishini_Dracoto
Why Militia, and not Darksteel? That's what has me confused about this post. If you are going to spend money into melding Materia, you should hold off until you at least have the good suit of armor. I used AF -> AK -> DL -> AF+1. The only real plausible deviation I respect from that, is at any step, moving to HQ Darksteel & melding.
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11-09-2013, 06:27 AMGamemakoHe got an ilvl90 AF+1 helm, and needed to fall back on something. I do think, though, that it would have been better to use ilvl60 Hoplite instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto
This is simply false. Ninjiitsu found that with 486 parry, adding 30 points of Dexterity (216-246) increased parry rate by 3.55%. This is about 0.118% parry rate per point. At 456 parry, he tested 216-266, an increase of 50 DEX. This yielded an increase in parry rate of 4.72%, or about 0.0944% per point. These are all subject to random error and so on, and nobody has the volume of data needed to make a good prediction on the exact formula.Quote:
Originally Posted by Techro
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11-09-2013, 07:29 AMYunnie
The correct answer is... If your considering melding dex, then you should instead meld DET! If you cannot meld DET, you should then go for CRIT... If you cannot do that either... Then you should then go to ACC...
This is considering you cannot meld VIT -
11-09-2013, 08:10 AMGamemakoDetermination is generally a poor stat for tanks. The impact of determination on weaponskill damage is negligible, so it offers little in terms of enmity gain. It is just a small boost to DPS primarily through autoattacks. It does not affect anything else that happens to a tank -- not damage taken, not evasion, not healing received, not parry, nothing. Quite the opposite to your claim, DEX should be fourth in line: VIT & ACC to content requirements, then STR, then the two parry stats. DEX is more valuable per point than Parry in every known test, but the two may be better in combination than by pumping one or the other -- not enough data to say for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yunnie
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11-09-2013, 08:35 AMRyan420
Or you could just meld parry instead unless that's capped if you are really trying to boost your parry rate.
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11-09-2013, 12:32 PMPhreakYeah what this is coming down to is what to meld after capping VIT > STR > ACC > PARRY > ?.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan420
I stand by that above all else it is the tanks job to reduce/control their damage intake as much as possible, not DPS, so I was seeing that whether or not DEX was such a small increment to parry that it wouldn't out weigh a minuscule threat/self heal through put gain from Crit > Det as far as 'reduce my healing/damage taken load as much as possible'.
I'm in the group to take damage, not deal it. From a progression stance it is always the tank that can take the biggest beating, not the one that dishes out the most damage, that pulls through. -
11-09-2013, 12:59 PMYsarelI am not aware of any testing involving sufficiently small variations in DEX at a sufficiently high level of confidence as to support your assertion. Care to provide a link to your source(s)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
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11-10-2013, 03:54 AMRiyos
I melded the cuirass with acc+6, dex+4, dex+4, chr+4 and acc+4. I think it's quite good, maybe better than the hoplite, mainly because of default bonuses(Parry+23 and chr+16 instead of acc+24 and ss+17). In any case a will soon take the af+1 body, that is mush better(33 vit, that's gorgeous) than both armors
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11-10-2013, 09:52 PMYunnieSo the tool tip about increasing healing received via spells is false? I'm surprised SE would would advertise a false statement on their tool tips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
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11-10-2013, 10:32 PMPaikisIt does not say anything about healing received. It specifically statesQuote:
Originally Posted by Yunnie
"Affects the amount of damage dealt by both physical and magic attacks, as well as the amount of HP restored by healing spells. Auto attack potency is also affected."
Your interpretation is incorrect. The wording could be done better though. -
11-11-2013, 09:45 PMGamemakoIf you review review Ninjiitsu's data and Hulan's data via Valk, you will find no other reasonable conclusion at this time. No, the data is not good, and the relationship is complex (especially with Hulan's data, which includes both parry and blocking both), but, there is an effect observed with every DEX interval.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ysarel
As Paikis pointed out, it doesn't actually say that. The wording is just a bit poor. However, tooltips are pretty bad in general in ARR. "Clusters are unavailable in the beta version", anyone? And Steady Hand tooltip on the buff itself is wrong, saying 10% instead of 20%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yunnie
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11-12-2013, 12:11 AMPhreakFor spending 2ish years rebuilding this game 'from the ground up' it's a bit disheartening to see how much seems to be a copy/paste job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
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11-12-2013, 02:00 AMYsarelNeither data set nor the combination of the two provides enough data, much less good data, to support your conclusion. What conclusions we can draw from them does not extend to anything remotely close to sub-1% levels of accuracy. If this is all there is then we do not have enough data at this time to determine how exactly the effect of DEX on parry is calculated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
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11-12-2013, 02:55 AMGamemakoYou are demanding irrelevant information to irrelevant certainty. You want the absolute value of 1 point when no player will take just one point, nor is there any reason to create such an estimate. I have repeatedly stated that we do not have enough data to piece together any formula. It is actually likely that there is no such point due to co-dependence. However, there is no interval within the data (between 15 and 30 points) which proffers the existence of any tiering effect. For one to exist, the tier would have to be less than 15 points of dexterity and placed conveniently such that an interval is crossed between 211, 216, 226, and 246, but not more than once. This is either an incredibly-fortunate placement of a 14-point interval (213, 227, 241) or it doesn't exist, and Occam's Razor cuts the former to ribbons. It is extremely unlikely that DEX is based on tiers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ysarel
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11-12-2013, 03:29 AMYsarelNo, I'm demanding that you provide adequate support for your assertions. If you are going to claim that every point of DEX is beneficial for a tank, you should be able to back that up. You have thus far failed to do so, instead making claims that have less to do with the data presented than your own wishful thinking and lack of knowledge of statistics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
I doubt anyone here would dispute the notion that parry rate is directly proportional to DEX and the parry stat. But did Ninjiitsu's parsed parry rate not decrease in one test when he increased his DEX by 27 and his parry by 16? Was his parry rate not virtually identical (+0.2%) to the first test in a third test wherein he increased his parry stat by a further 30 points? There are similar instances of results running counter to expectations in Hulan's data, where in several instances lowering block rate without varying DEX or parry also exhibited a decrease in parry rate where one would expect either an increase (if block is checked first; if memory serves someone confirmed this but I'd have to dig it up again) or no change (if parry is checked first). Should we draw some bizarre, convoluted conclusion from this data? Of course not. The cause is nothing more than low sample size.
EDIT: Before you attempt to twist my words around, I take no position as to whether the effects of DEX are tiered or not. I claim only an absence of sufficient information to draw a conclusion regarding this question. -
11-12-2013, 04:07 AMGamemakoFirst, let's review what I said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ysarel
Now, it's funny, but I don't see "every point of DEX is beneficial for a tank" anywhere in there. But let's address this anyway:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
There are 5 possibilities for how DEX affects parry rate:
1) Adding DEX offers no benefit.
2) Adding DEX offers benefit at a fixed rate
3) Adding DEX offers benefit at specific tiers
4) Adding DEX offers benefit up to a given cap
5) Adding DEX offers benefit dependent upon a third value with no cap
It is clear that (1) is not the case. Current data is not conclusive with regards to (2) -- it is possible, though the discrepancy in parry rate added per point leads me to believe that it is not the case. (3) is what I just addressed -- it is extremely unlikely that there is any tiered effect. For (4), there is not sufficient data to identify any potential caps. (5) is a reasonable candidate.
Now, since (1) and (3) are clearly not the case, then the only way that you would not get value out of DEX is assuming that you have already reached the theoretical cap of (4), which we lack any evidence exists. If it does exist, then at 456 parry, it's greater than 246 dexterity and extremely likely at least 256 (assuming no dependence between parry and DEX benefit as well as assuming that the other data is correct and DEX adds 0.11833% per point, the theoretical cap would be this value).
//EDIT:
So you're basing all of this on the incomparable outlier? The one which provides an impossible result based on any imaginable formula, from walls to tiers to anything shy of a screw-you-stat? Kay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ysarel
Block is checked first. Increases in block rate reduce parry rate, which must be increased to stay relatively constant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ysarel