So Exactly WHY Did Minfilia Move the Waking Sands?

This has been bugging me for a while now - Minfilia's reasons for moving the Waking Sands from it's pre-Calamity secret, secure location in Ul'dah's Merchant Wards (where it was located in 1.0), out into Vesper Bay, a rundown port town with less than secure facilities and right on the Empire's doorstep to boot! I know it's a whole new organization now that the Path has amalgamated with the Circle of Knowing, but still seems like a very misguided and foolish decision in hindsight - look at how easy

Livia managed to waltz right in with a troop of soldiers and slaughter everyone inside who was not 'important' enough to take prisoner.

Is there any lore explanation as to why she made such a foolish move? It's not like the new location is that easy to get to anyway.

I just can't help but think that whole horrible tragedy with Livia could have been avoided if she had only left the Waking Sands inside Ul'dah instead of having move it out into the boondocks. Countless lives would not have been lost - at the very least poor Noraxia would still be alive.

But then I guess, narrative tension and drama dictated otherwise.

Or maybe I'm just flapping my gums here.

Rent was too high

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Or maybe I'm just flapping my gums here.

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b..but they're SEXY gums. ^^

economy....

She was carried there by the teleportation magicks of the Ascians. So, no, it wouldn't have been avoided if the headquarters remained in Ul'dah.

But your question remains a valid one: why did they move their HQ? Also, why do they still use the Waking Sands after that tragedy?

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

I just can't help but think that whole horrible tragedy with Livia could have been avoided if she had only left the Waking Sands inside Ul'dah instead of having move it out into the boondocks. Countless lives would not have been lost - at the very least poor Noraxia would still be alive.

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I don't have an answer for why they moved in the first place, but I will say the following to reply to the spoiler tags (also in tags of course):

I'm pretty sure the incident happened wholly because Thancred was possessed by Lahabrea, basically as a sort of sleeper agent, thus Thancred's knowledge was passed unknowingly to the enemy and that is what led them to it. The Sands would have been infiltrated no matter where they were located IMO.

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Originally Posted by Myranda

I don't have an answer for why they moved in the first place, but I will say the following to reply to the spoiler tags (also in tags of course):

I'm pretty sure the incident happened wholly because Thancred was possessed by Lahabrea, basically as a sort of sleeper agent, thus Thancred's knowledge was passed unknowingly to the enemy and that is what led them to it. The Sands would have been infiltrated no matter where they were located IMO.

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I don't think Thancred got possessed until part was through the storyline. He is himself when you deal with him around Ifrit, but after you part ways he goes out on solo missions and gets exhausted to the point of being able to be taken over

I think the move might have more to do with the change in political climate since the Cataclysm. Ul'dah itself has changed with the influx of refugees and such. There may also be some unrest towards the organisation. Urianger was quite prominent in spouting prophecies and the members of the Path of the Twelve were supposed to have 'special powers' and maybe people got angry that for all of that, they couldn't predict/warn about Dalamud. So perhaps they moved to a less obtrusive location than a major city

"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer" is a phrase that comes to mind. Plus, while Ul'Dah's size makes it a rather ideal place to house a secret organization, a port city is also just as good. People can come and go and everyone will be none the wiser.

Also, from a developer standpoint, you wouldn't want to make one of the three main cities be absolutely more important than the others, would you?

The Waking Sands is still well-hidden, and honestly, Ul'dah's not exactly the best place for an underground, anti-Garlean organization to be--we have members of the Syndicate who still engage in trade with the Empire as far as I know, and with only money on their minds, rumor or hearsay might give away the fact that they have an anti-Garlean operation going on in the city--not to mention, Lolorito and his Brass Blades aren't exactly the most trustworthy soldiers of the city, and they're in a lot of different places around Ul'dah.

Their hiding place may actually be better than the one in Ul'dah, mainly because the Brass Blade influence isn't as heavy; like you mentioned, the Waking Sands was originally referred to as the Merchant Wards, and, seeing as Minfilia has the power to give the player a license to get a retainer, to any other normal person not involved with the Scions, Minfilia's just running a normal business with the retainers. (The Ashcrown Consortium does the same sort of thing in 1.0 if I'm remembering it right--they're thought of as just a normal business, but very few people know that it's a crystal trade system run entirely by sylphs.) Really, the only reason they were discovered as a secret organization was because

Lahabrea-Thancred sold their location out to Gaius and his tribuni.

In the aftermath of that, they've still decided to stay there and don't seem to want to change it. That may be because most people might think of the Scions as simply a "business" Minfilia runs, but in reality, it's much more than that.

There were probably very few people who realized just how severe the downfall of the Scions post-Titan was--Alphinaud mentions in the scenes after that word has spread of their demise, but the only ones who really get the impact of this are the GC leaders, who are kind of terrified and fear for the worst without them, which is why he mentions the city-states attempting to take as much precautionary action as possible, I think.

Mysteltain is also probably right with the developer's perspective--They most likely didn't want Ul'dah to be the main hub city as it was in 1.0 and then have all the other cities totally deserted. (And it seems to be working, since the GC percentage of the Flames have gone down considerably from 1.0 and now it's pretty balanced.)

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Originally Posted by Mysteltain

Also, from a developer standpoint, you wouldn't want to make one of the three main cities be absolutely more important than the others, would you?

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Works from a lore perspective, too. The new "mission" of the order involved not only maintaining peace from outside threats, but also to keep Eorzea united, so they moved the base to a more centralized location. Of course, perfectly centralized would basically be the Southern side of Mor Dhona, and that is A) smack dab between two Castrums and B) Not exactly a location known for inspiring hope.

I'd imagine Ul'dah getting shanked via Bahamut had something to do with it.

While that's speculation, it can be made credible by the fact in 1.0, the path of the twelve shared the same entrance as the retainer ward and iirc the immortal flames. The flames have been moved to ground level now, and retainer ward is no more. Potentially that part of Ul'dah was totalled, hence the flames and Minfilia and co. moving.

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Originally Posted by faris

Potentially that part of Ul'dah was totalled, hence the flames and Minfilia and co. moving.

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I've been meaning to say something along these lines ever since this thread started and just kept putting it off, lol.

This is my assumption, as well. A lot of the town took damage and, by then, I imagine their cover was blown in some circles. Their new base isn't directly in any of the city-states but has quick access to all three (they're next to the ferry to LL, which has an airship to Grid), and has the added benefit of being in a discreet location.

That is an interesting idea Moose that I hadn't considered (mostly because I just assumed that Ul'dah mostly escaped major damage during the Calamity - that only Gridania was severely damaged) - it would definitely explain the extra entrance that wasn't there five years earlier (the Gate of the Sultana), and how the original building that contained the Waking Sands along with the Market Ward is literally completely gone.

The building that now occupies the site (currently the location of the Hall of Flames) is a completely different structure so it does ring true that maybe the original building was destroyed in the Calamity. You've given me new ideas to think about, thanks! :D

EDIT: in hindsight, I think now more and more Ul'dah might have taken far more damage during the Calamity than I first thought - I remembered that the Milvaneth Sacrarium (the 'light' counterpart to the THM Guild the Azzarnth Ossuary) is actually closed off in ARR and speaking to one of the NPCs out the front (not the BLM but the THM in the robe) mentions that the Sacrarium is closed for 'repairs' and that 'the rebuilding is taking longer than they thought'.

I can't remember if it was specifically mentioned that the Sacrarium was actually damaged during the Calamity, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. In any event, it definitely gives more evidence that Ul'dah took massive damage during the Calamity, and hence provide the answer to my original question about the Waking Sands. :)

Also if I was the leader of a secret faction dedicated to the destruction of the Empire/Ascians I wouldn't want to be located in the middle of a huge city. If the location was found out there would be far more collateral damage than if the location was in a small fishing/port villiage.

Minfillia was likely thinking of the safety of those not affiliated with the Scions when she moved to Vesper Bay.

The best way to hide is in plain sight. Ask Lahabrea.

I was under the impression that when Bahamut went on his rampage, it decimated the northwest edge of Ul'Dah, destroying the wards, the waking sands, and a large chunk of cliffs to the northwest of town, allowing immediate access from town to Western Thanalan.

Mmm.. Minfilia.. *drool* <333