Note: This isn’t written for tanks in this game, but for everyone who does *not* play tanks here but is used to tanking conventions in other games. Also, this posting refers to enmity issues in on-level content and do not take into consideration special circumstances such as speed runs when grossly over-geared or where the mechanics of a specific fight call for out-of-the-ordinary approaches. Finally, this is not a general how-to-tank guide, but is a commentary on why Final Fantasy XIV Paladin tanking is so different from typical sword and board tanking in other games. Also note that while this piece focuses on Paladins, Warriors share many of the same issues though they have superior aoe aggro skills whereas Paladins dish out stronger single target aggro.
Glossary: Enmity = Aggro = Hate = Threat (more or less)
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So, you’ve played WOW, Rift, LOTRO, whatever, maybe even tanked in one or two of them, and you’re now playing a healer or damage dealer in FFIXV and tanking all looks so familiar.
There’s the Paladin, a bread-and-butter, sword-and-board mitigation tank that lumbers along and can take a beating and keep on ticking. Check.
There’s the Warrior, a, um… Blood tank? Self-healing tank? Evasion tank? (Not trying to be cute, I only have my Warrior to lvl35.) Check? Well, while I look forward to learning war-tanking soon, as I’m enjoying its play so far and have mained this type of tank in another game, I still can’t say I know it well.
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Ok, Duty Finder dings, cut scene’s over and the jellyfish cocoon evaporates. Hi, glad to meet you, oh, you’re from Adamantoise too? Healer buffs, DPS gets antsy, tank starts grunting, and off you go. First mob group ahead. Tank sprinkles some numbering magic, pulls and the hate monitor shows all three mobs red hot on the tank. Mobs don’t like the treatment they are getting and start pounding on the tank, the healer starts healing, and damage dealers start dealing damage. Then pow! Healer’s down, tank is desperately trying to reestablish aggro, one DPSer is tanking a mob in place and the other is running around with his hair on fire.
Wipe, fade to black. Fail tank, obviously. I mean, right?
Well, I would say yes if this were almost any other modern mmorpg. But you know what? It’s not.
Before looking at FFXIV tanking, let’s think about what happens after the pull in your other typical mmo. In AcmeMMO the tank uses a ranged skill (1) to pull mobs. When they arrive he blasts them with an aoe forced taunt (2) that gives him fake aggro for 5 seconds. During that time, no one can pull a mob off of him, but when those 5 seconds are up, if the tank has done nothing else, all the fake aggro goes away. So the tank uses that time to launch a fast combination of strong aoe and single target aggro builders (3).
At this point, aggro is in good shape and DPS is going strong. As needed, healers are healing away with abandon. If it’s a longish fight and damage and healing aggro continue to build, the tank will start making a lot more use of aggro leech (4) skills that simultaneously reduce aggro on team mates and apply it on himself.
Oops, a Hunter with his new +1 Epic Bow of Amazing Awesomeness beats the RNG and lands a critical holocaust hit with Thunderstorm of Thorns and two mobs peel away. The tank immediately uses his big long-cooldown threat copy (5) skill that puts him 1 point ahead of whoever has the most hate on any of the mobs he’s fighting (if only one had pulled away he would have used his shorter-cooldown single-target threat copy skill). The fighting continues; the good guys win.
Yippee, all mobs dead, and all aggro building and maintaining work was done by the tank.
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Now, back to Final Fantasy. First thing to know is there is no forced taunt. A tank has no way of forcing a bunch of mobs to stick on him for 5 seconds while he applies massive aggro builders that get the mobs good and locked for the rest of the fight. While we’re at it, well, the Paladin doesn’t have any fast single-target or massive aoe aggro builders either. And though he does have a one threat copy skill, it applies to only one mob and it’s on a separate longish cooldown. Finally, no tanks in this game have an aggro leech of any kind.
Here’s what your trusty Paladin tank *does* have (the first three share the global cooldown, the fourth has its own longer cooldown):
- A nice pull skill, Shield Lob, that applies modest enmity to a single target and also pulls in any associated mobs.
- A weak but quick aoe threat builder called Flash. It has nearly zero range, so mobs have to be almost on top of the tank for it to apply.
- A 3-part single-target enmity-builder skill sequence, often called the Rage of Halone combo, named after skill #3 in the sequence. The first hit does no aggro other than light damage. The second hit applies moderate aggro. The third hit applies strong aggro.
- A single-target, ranged threat-copy skill, Provoke, which is amazing for pulling back a mob that got away, but due to its cooldown can typically only be used once or twice a fight. And that’s it.
A generic multi-mob fight in FFXIV goes something like this:
Macho Tank marks the mobs 1-2-3 then Lobs his Shield at #1 (ouch! that got the mob’s attention and he tells his friends). Then when they come give the guy what for, he Flashes them all (eeek!). This gives target #1 moderate enmity from the Lob and the Flash, and targets #2-3 very light enmity just from the Flash.
He then begins the Rage of Halone single-target triple combo, either pounding all 3 hits on target #1 or maybe sharing some of the loving with target #2. As he is doing this, Karl Kapow and Suzie Zaps begin unleashing on target #1. When Macho is finished with the first visitation of St. Halone he Flashes again. Now the first target really really hates “It’s Mr. Tank to you!” and the opinions of the other two mobs range between kinda disliking him and vowing never to marry his sister. Target #1 should also now be feeling pretty under-the-weather and Healz R’us is starting to serve some piping hot chicken soup for her man Macho, who has himself looked better. For the second application of Halone, Macho might shift his steel-like gaze to #2 and #3 (splitting the sequence) as #1 is breathing his last breath. Macho then keeps up with his Halones and maybe a few Flashs too until the evil triumvirate is no more.
If Kapow and Zaps were laying down aoe damage, Macho would have been spreading out his vindictives more evenly on the three mobs rather than front loading quite as much on #1. If Kapow makes a mistake and hits the wrong marked target pulling him, or lucks out with a massive crit, or if Healz does the same (or, *shudder* overheals), a mob might peel off. Macho then Provokes it something awful, followed by another Shield to the head, and the mob should come slavering right back.
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So in Final Fantasy XIV, the mobs are just as dead but the tank doesn’t own aggro management in the same way he does in AcmeMMO. To get to this same good outcome DPS and heals need to hold off a little more at the start, healers must not overheal (I have never seen such insane healing aggro as in this game, particularly for White Mages), and DPS must stay on the numbered sequence of targets (in many other mmos, staying on the numbers or the target assist is important to do, but for damage management not aggro management).
In other words, aggro is much more a full team responsibility and not just the tank’s “job.” Unlike other mmos I’ve played, a determined DPSer or healer can just about always pull hate if they really want it.
Let’s go back to the original wipe. Any number of things could have gone wrong. The tank might not have Flashed at the beginning, leaving essentially no aggro on mobs #2-3. Or he might only have been using single-target enmity skills on #1 alone for a couple of rotations, leaving #2 and #3 untouched with the Halone combo. So yes, it might have been a poor or inexperienced tank. However, it is just as likely that the DPSers started hitting too soon or were not on the first marked target. Or, perhaps, the healer wanted to feel like she was contributing early on (even though there was virtually no damage yet to heal) and started spamming massive healing skills.
In this game, the tanks have no “I Own Aggro” button, like they do in other modern mmos. The Paladin faces harder – often frantic – work, but it is a fun challenge. And when a group really jells, with everyone playing their part, not just in the Holy Trinity but in their niche of aggro management, dungeoning can be a sheer joy.
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11-04-2013, 11:59 AMZakalweFFXIV Sword & Board Tanking: A Different Kind of Beast (Long)
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11-04-2013, 01:38 PMAlerith
As a Paladin:
[Single Target (like a Primal)]: Shield Lob when in range, Spirits Within as you run through your target, then Shield Lob again as you come out to the back of where they are. Now your healers and DD have to fight against all the damage you did, plus the augmented enmity from Shield Lob. This is more than enough to lock in Hate and get your first Rage of Halone Combo off.
[Multi-Target (Like a trash pull)]: Shield Lob your primary target. When all other targets are in range, use Flash, Circle of Scorn, Flash, Spirits Within your main target, then Flash again. Now begin your usual combo. The Flashes will give you the buffer you need.
I need no such button. I always own aggro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakalwe
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11-04-2013, 01:55 PMWobi
This would apply early on before you get decent tank abilities. Before Rage of Halone hate is not exactly easy if the party won't cooperate with you, however later on this becomes less of an issue.
But solid advice and always try and offer friendly advice in the earlier battles as it will be their first time tanking something other than a couple of leve mobs at most. -
11-04-2013, 02:11 PMbobosaur
As Warrior:
Spam Overpower -
11-04-2013, 02:37 PMZfz
Most of the time when aggro trouble occur, it is due to a combination of multiple of these factors:
- Tank is using a weapon at least 20 item levels below the damage dealer (DD) who over-taunts (OT).
- Tank is 2 or more levels under the DD.
- One of the DD is applying area of effect (AoE) damage, while the other is focus firing. Or they each pick a target and unload.
- DD doesn't stop after OTing.
Although lately I've seen more and more Relic+1 DDers finally learning to watch the enmity meter. Just yesterday I ran into a Bard who started very slow and gradually upped his damage. The first pack he was dealing like 20% enmity all the time, the next pack at 50%, then 75% or so. (I only have Ifrit weapon and 3*DL.) So I suppose people are finally realizing that while this looks like a whatever-clone-game, not everything is the same as other games. -
11-04-2013, 05:06 PMRhoddODduw
Rule Number one for any high level tank, Always.. ALWAYS remove regen before you pull a group of mobs.
I've been noticing more and more lately, Regen happy spamming white mages running through Amdapur Keep. When you pull that group with it still active, the whm immediately has enmity on the whole group. I've had some crazy pulls when I've forgotten to remove, or not noticed it active.
"Save a White Mage, Right click Regen!!" -
11-04-2013, 05:27 PMSteeled
In most situations, if the healer is dying before anyone else, the tank probably did something wrong.
Healers need to try not to have any hots on anyone as the tank is pulling. They also need to try not to land a cast (like stoneskin) as the tank is charging in. Letting the tank get initial threat is everyone's responsibility, but after that, if the healer is dying before the tank, the tank probably screwed up (not generating enough aoe agro). In MOST situations, flash generates more hate than a healer will generate.
Of course, none of this relates to scholars playing SCHummoner, because they're straddling DD at that point.
I haven't done coil yet, but before coil, the only fight I've ever helplessly lost hate to a healer is Titan Hard-Mode. -
11-04-2013, 05:42 PMShenandoahThis XD although I noticed some WHMs cast regen then immediately medica II for more regen as soon as I shield lob a mob. I guess they want to stack double regen so they can run in and dps/holy or something lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by RhoddODduw
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11-04-2013, 05:51 PMAegis*BLM looks up briefly from the pack of mobs he is tanking*Quote:
Originally Posted by Alerith
LOL
*goes back to tanking*
What you want to do as Warrior:Quote:
Originally Posted by bobosaur
Spam cool, sexy moves with lots of spinning and big hits keeping hate on you through damage alone (What happened to you Steel Cyclone? You used to be cool).
What you do as a Warrior:
Tomahawk, Overpower, Overpower, Overpower, cycle Butcher's Block combo among the pack.
If you have the breathing room to anything other than Butcher's Block, the chances are your DD aren't the best. -
11-04-2013, 06:18 PMzakalw3
So, you're the one who stole my username.
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11-04-2013, 06:23 PMxnonamex
well. imo it is not that difficult as long as you don't have a retard DD. normally when u focus on one target, it is fine. Even with srsly undergeared tank and full DL,relic+1 dps, heal in AK, it all depends on the skill of the tank and brains of the rest of the party, because some tanks can manage it and some don't, so...
Also there are so many other bonuses that helps tank if comparing to other MMOs as u are saying:
1) if u have a blm, they just have the most awesome cc with their mass sleep - problem here is that someone usually aoes them out of it
2) dds can have damage mitigating cross skills (i always keep 1 or 2 cross skill life savers on my bar) in case of emergency
3) dds are just not as squishy. usually tank has time to take back aggro because heal can actually keep even casters alive for quite some time.
the main thing in this game is actually cooperation in party and actions of every party member influences outcome greatly... -
11-04-2013, 06:33 PMAegisI believe you both stole it from the late Mr Iain M Banks.Quote:
Originally Posted by zakalw3
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11-04-2013, 07:24 PMzakalw3
As for the subject at hand.
I'm a relic +1 PLD with full Darklight. I'm well versed with everything in the game except coil.
If you run the dungeons with gear relevant to the level, the PLD's skill set is absolutely fine for holding aggro on multiple mobs /if/ you don't over pull. Take each group as they are, and as long as your group knows enough to not start AOEing before you land your first couple of hits you will hardly ever lose aggro.
Try to take on more than one group at a time, and it becomes a team effort. Ie: every member must follow numbers, aoe must hold off until tank has established decent hate, healer must manage their output. At this point, when you're trying to take on more than the encounter is designed for you to, it's perfectly reasonable that it should require much more co-ordination.
The only times I fail to hold all red lights are when:
I pull too much for my gear (this happened while I was levelling and learning).
My team aren't doing their part (overheals, eager dps, aoe before hate held).
I'm simply not focused enough and my rotations are sloppy.
PLD can hold AOE hate just fine. If you want to pull more than one group, then have your party understand their parts. There's nothing wrong with this set-up.
Perhaps I'll notice something different when I try Coil, but for the rest of the game I know exactly why my red lights switch yellow when they do, and I can see a perfectly reasonable reason and solution. -
11-04-2013, 08:29 PMZakalweLol, yes. All hail to 'M', may he rest in peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by zakalw3
P.S. my alt, which will house my caster classes is named Gurgeh. -
11-04-2013, 09:14 PMzakalw3My alt is called Diziet Sma.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakalwe
Rip Banks, idd. -
11-04-2013, 09:42 PMAegisMaybe he just sublimed?Quote:
Originally Posted by zakalw3
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11-05-2013, 02:42 AMAnneliesseRegen is a great skill as we are all getting better geared up( i kinda think of it like Eos the heal happy fairy). I usually cast it after I've had to heal the tank once before (i want them to have good aggro before I do this), and try to keep it up so i can help DD a little. Unfortunately, sometimes things die faster and there are a few seconds left on an old regen that needs to be removed. I hope your advice gets around. It's as simple as a right click to remove it, and save the whm from having to pull even more aggro as he/she is spam healing her/himself to stay alive. I don't understand WHMs that start by casting regen and medica II before anyone is taking damage, but then some people just can't understand that you don't have to heal every single hit point lost, the moment it is lost, either. *shrugs*Quote:
Originally Posted by RhoddODduw
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11-05-2013, 03:19 AMGrogin
I think it is worth saying that, while it mitigates damage, sleeping targets are also harder to keep enmity on. I play a warrior, so flash is not as useful nor can we cast it as often, Our hate gathering abilities deal damage and we refrain from using them on sleeping targets. When the target wakes up, it is entirely possible it will go after a healer or the person who slept it. While it is usually easy to regain hate on these mobs, tanking with slept mobs is a completely different mechanic than tanking a group with no limits to what abilities you can use.
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11-05-2013, 03:45 AMRhazeCain
Well, as a Warrior primarily, most all of this applies there as well. They have a roughly equivalent combo to rage of halone. Overpower is an additional option on top of Flash and is cone shaped instead of circle. Provoke works on both.
Putting the OP's message (I think) another way, here are things you can do to make things go bad. Avoid them if you want it to go well.
- As DPS, begin damage as fast as possible. Ignore the tank's need to get a head start.
- As healer, use your biggest agro abilities as often as possible. Holy and Medica for example. Or Cure II when just plain Cure would be enough.
- If you have agro, stand away from the tank or move around.
- As DPS, use area damage effects where other DPS uses single target. Or vice versa.