Feedback : no build diversity in this game, plz do smthing about it.

As an mmo player since more than 10 years, and seeing pvp getting closer and closer, i m starting to be concerned about the severe lack of build diversity this game offers to his players.
Even in pve this is already a problem imo. Only 1 set possible of darlight/allagan/af2 gears per job, no option at all to spec more on 1 stat than on another, no option to choose to sacrifice some dps for some more defense/HP or parry, impossible to choose to spec more on direct damage than on "dot" damage.
This problem also touch our skill trees... well i shouldn't say skill trees as this is completly inexistant, we just learn new abilities while leveling up and at the end of this process, we all end up with the exact same skills on our bars without having any choices to make that would allow us to build our own unique character.
It's pretty sad to see that in the end, we are all just clones, same gears (or nearly), same skills...
ofc we could choose to put our 30 stat points somewhere else but... as the game is designed right now it wouldn't make a huge difference in the end.
Crafted gears don't offer much choice either as you are litterally forced to use this or this materia coz of the "stat cap" on a precise gear and the stats weight as it is set up now anyway doesn't make a difference... 1% crit or 0.02 CD? lol this isn't character customisation.
At the moment in pve, when u run raids or dgs every bards are the same... every monks are the same... every pld... there s just no diversity. If this continues, it will be the same in pvp, and this is a really sad thing.

I don't see any value in "diversity" created by gear or build.

There is value in diversity of gameplay strategy, tactics, and execution.

(and yes, there is a subtle, or not so subtle, distinction)

Build diversity in terms of speccing is usually pointless... everyone ends up speccing the same way else they're considered 'bad'. Blizzard even went and essentially removed the talent trees from WoW because there was no point to them when everyone just used the same cookie-cutter specs. Diversity has to come from fluff and cosmetics really; anything that affects combat will eventually be optimised by the min/max players and the 'choice' becomes redundant.

I try to think of the Jobs as the equivalent of different specs for the classes. ACN is the only class that has more than one spec at the moment but the rest will eventually get them too.

So basically, you want to a system where like in WoW and some other games you have a talent/skill tree in which you place points in to try and be unique, but in the end there will always be cookie cutter specs that make everyone the same anyway if they want to be "the best of the best". So no skill/talent trees are totally fine. Everyone would be the same anyway with them. At least when someone's a bad player and they're just lacking gear/mental capacity to do something correctly you can at least find the source of their issue and say "Hey bro, you need to gear up better for this." instead of "Wtf did you put your talent/skill points into? You should be this and this to be good!".

As someone pointed out, even when there are talent tree's in a game, everyone ends up latching on to someone's build plan and copying them anyway. What's the point? And if you take into consideration of what Talent tree's do in other games, between attribute points and material you can get the same outcome, with out having a cookie cutter tree. You get to decide which abilities to use from sub classes here, you get extra abilities from Job Classes. Its exactly like having a skill tree, its just SE spin on how they do it.

While I agree with what people say about cookie cutter builds always being dominant, there's also another part to "skill trees", and that's choosing what role your job will be.
If you were a PLD in WoW and met another PLD, that didn't automaticly make you both tanks. One could be a healer, one could be a DD and one could be a tank.

Here it's more like you meet another PLD, and that's all he can be, a tank. He can't be anything else.

But then again, in FFXIV you can lvl all the jobs on one character, but the jobs are still only playable as their designed role.

Edit: A merit system like it was in 11 would be cool though. Especially merit category 2!

Everything is the same even in the presence of talent trees. Why? Because math and logic are applied to your 'choices' which tell of the most 'efficient' build that would be required for your task. The only times it would vary is in some cases of DPS classes having multiple effective routes to do damage, yet even then people do the math and one spec will be superior to the other once a milestone is achieved.

The only difference is player skill, and people have learned to judge off that (however harshly sometimes) since in FFXIV since gear at 50 is so readily available.

I think like someone else mentioned here that Jobs are the 'specs' we seek. An Arcanist at 50 can either have a Summoner Job or a Scholar Job. Ones a DD and ones a Healer, both evolved from the same base class. Once SE adds more jobs for the other ones, we might see a bit of variance, though a paladin will never be a DPS, a gladiator at least could choose between that or a DD job when it is added.

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Originally Posted by Mokkis

While I agree with what people say about cookie cutter builds always being dominant, there's also another part to "skill trees", and that's choosing what role your job will be.
If you were a PLD in WoW and met another PLD, that didn't automaticly make you both tanks. One could be a healer, one could be a DD and one could be a tank.

Here it's more like you meet another PLD, and that's all he can be, a tank. He can't be anything else.

But then again, in FFXIV you can lvl all the jobs on one character, but the jobs are still only playable as their designed role.

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Well yes a PLD role is to tank, but if you don't want to tank and heal, you can change your class and become a DPS or Heals just as easily as you could if you played WoW. The biggest difference is that you can choose any class to dps or heal with here as long as you leveled up the class. Which is much better than only have 2-3 options like WoW did on only one character.

To me, feeling unique would be a lot more enjoyable than any damage meter.

The whole idea is that eventually, you could have multiple Gladiators that can fulfill different roles (aka jobs). However, since only Arcanist can select multiple jobs, you don't really see it much in game. Yoshi-P already plans on adding more diversity to the classes by adding multiple jobs so just hang tight.

More customization would be welcome.

To some extent they tried to do this with the cross-class skills, but there's no real choice there. Maybe they could rework the cross-class skill so you can make a real choice. (Maybe a stronger-than-usual version of 1 particular cross-class skill?)

Or a system that boosts one of your main class skills (e.g. choosing more powerful absorbs, or better regen for healers, or a cheaper emergency heal, or whatever, etc.)

There are a lot of possibilities and it needn't be cookie-cutter. It could even introduce new strategies for fights, or allow you to change your build to tailor a particular fight or team.

and it's bound to make PvP less predictable.

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Originally Posted by Dliver

More customization would be welcome.

To some extent they tried to do this with the cross-class skills, but there's no real choice there. Maybe they could rework the cross-class skill so you can make a real choice. (Maybe a stronger-than-usual version of 1 particular cross-class skill?)
Or a system that boosts one of your main class skills (e.g. choosing more powerful absorbs, or better regen for healers, or a cheaper emergency heal, or whatever, etc.)

There are a lot of possibilities and it needn't be cookie-cutter. It could even introduce new strategies for fights, or allow you to change your build to tailor a particular fight or team.

and it's bound to make PvP less predictable.

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Irony: the current cross class system is exactly what people are asking for in the sense that it's a system where the choices matter very little for actual combat output and they are, ultimately, flavor abilities that give you uniqueness.

Once you go beyond that simplistic approach and actually make choices that are meaningful, there really isn't a choice anymore as it's only the illusion of choice. Example: you can choose, as a CNJ, to take Virus and Physick over Swiftcast and Sure Cast...but you're a failbird if you choose to do so. Ultimately when the choices matter, there is no choice anymore because there really is a right choice.

So yeah, talent trees are exactly the wrong way to make a system where people have customization and uniqueness.

I never asked for the jobs in 1.0. I wanted my gladiator to mix with THM and be a RDM without heals (okay I could toss in cure) just like in the original Fantasy. I would like traits and specs as well. While some people would go for a you must have X a lot of us wouldn't. A lot of us just play the game to have fun and the people we play with are of a like mind. So not everyone would, I do not believe even the majority would. I believe the majority of the people who post on boards about how awesome they are would try to find a build they like the most.

P.S: My Warrior went all strength. He isn't dying and he lives through dungeons I want to run him through (AK and WP mostly I'll take him through Ifrit and Garuda as well, not Titan, but that is because I find DL and the crafted gear ugly so he is on hold for a long time gear wise).

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Originally Posted by Orsnoire

Once you go beyond that simplistic approach and actually make choices that are meaningful, there really isn't a choice anymore as it's only the illusion of choice.

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Meaningful choices does not mean there's only one right choice.

Again, different fights could demand different abilities due to different mechanics. Or your team composition.

Or the choices can be meaningful and still relatively equal, overall.

I won't say this very often, but one of the only things WoW did a good job in Pandaland with is their system of picking talents - a total of 6 choices (3 in each column), and rarely are any of them useless. They all tend enhance certain skills that you might favor based on your play style or what fight you're looking at.

You can run multiple specs in WoW just fine. All specs of warlock are used, as are all specs of DK, mage, and in the case of hunter they have 2 viable specs currently. Speaking mostly of pure classes, not hybrids which all pretty much are viable.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

You can run multiple specs in WoW just fine. All specs of warlock are used, as are all specs of DK, mage, and in the case of hunter they have 2 viable specs currently. Speaking purely of pure classes, not hybrids which all pretty much are viable.

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This too.

I can't imagine anyone doesn't find it a little boring how alike we all are in this game? My white mage is exactly the same as any other. Same skills, same gear. There are no specs - no way to be a different kind of white mage.

Everything is so linear about your character - you grind and you all end up in exactly the same place with exactly the same character.

I was clearing Garuda before with another WHM in a PUG and laughing because we were basically overlapping each other casting the same thing at the same time.

It's boring. Who doesn't want to be a little different?

A game that did skill trees correctly is dungeon & fighter. It offers a lot of options, and all of them are functional: http://postfiles4.naver.net/20130819...70.jpg?type=w2 (end game gear has a lot of variety, too...)

So while a lot of games end up with a build that does "optimal dps", that's really a core design problem. If your game is engaging enough, it's possible to avoid that entirely (path of exile might be a good example too, haven't played it much to know for sure)

This game's diversity is that it is designed for you to be multiple jobs. Want to do good dmg with some survivability go dragon or mnk. Want to be tanky, go pld or war. Want to keep people up and rely on your comrades to save your tail, go whm or sch.

I like the way the classes are, they will be easier to balance this way. It will be more about who has the best strategy and skill and less about who is stacking what stat and who has the best gear.

It seems some are forgetting this is Final Fantasy before an MMO . A white mage is the typical final fantasy white mage , cure,regen,holy,esuna + a few spells.

A paladin is a tank(and only tank) and at some point your gladiator will get the option to "spec", as you like to describe it, as dps , most likely dark knight (GLD+ THM), but not yet

Specs in MMOs people math out what is the best unless they have a system where everything is situational and doesn't really matter if you can swap to different specs.

Jobs are the equivalent to a specializations.
There's only one one spec for each class right now because they have to release more jobs.
There could be some utility choices between specs to make each person feel unique, but I don't think it's the right choice.

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Originally Posted by ajx

It seems some are forgetting this is Final Fantasy before an MMO . A white mage is the typical final fantasy white mage , cure,regen,holy,esuna + a few spells.

A paladin is a tank(and only tank) and at some point your gladiator will get the option to "spec", as you like to describe it, as dps , most likely dark knight (GLD+ THM), but not yet

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Because of this basically.
Final Fantasy works with archetypes in all their games. From FF1, where you had your Thief, Warrior, White Mage etc, to the later games where characters still all fit into those roles with just different personalities.
You fulfill those roles in this game and having too much differences between each Job will dilute the concept of what it means to be, say, a paladin.
Find your niche and fill it. When you meet another Job of your type, you can feel a connection because you're the same.

Might be an eastern thing. Strong desires to express individualism on this scale is a western ideology.
Might just be a clash of cultures.

If i remember correctly, in several final fantasy u had a huge liberty of choosing you skill build or wich competence this or this character would use, be it with competence trees or with skill materias... you weren't forced to choose the ONLY path the game would offer you.
Diversity is good and healthy, look at how many ppl signed the vanity slot post because they are sick of looking like everyone else ingame. And we it comes to skills and specs for me it s the same. I don't see why i m litterally forced to have the same skills and the same stats as other ppl from my job.
Some ppl here said that jobs would be the equivalent of specs, i then hope to see in the future 6+ jobs per class wich would then have their own strength. But even if that would happen there could be even more diversity if they would give us more gear choice. Why not let us choose if we want to have more vit/more dext/str/int... or mind or piety and parry on the gear we want to equip?
For exemple a monk could choose to prioritze vit to be a tanky dps... a war could go full str to spec as a tank with high dps... a bard could go for parry/piety to go for a pure support dodge class... and so on.... those a just a few exemples right?
As the pve side of the game is right now.... wich is easy and straight forward, were jobs HAVE to play the roles they are designed to... and nothing else... the lack of diversity is still somehow "working"... even if it is less interesting that it could be. But when it comes to pvp! this isn't the same at all... you can't force your ennemy to only atack your tank while your DPS burst them down with their squishy build and tank being healed by healer jobs being even more squishy.
We do definitly need more specs, and no, Cookie Cutter spec in good games doesn't exist (as a lot of ppl were saying earlier), there s always strengths and weaknesses to any build you could make, and never 1 build that could win in any situations. I know we have a lot of math guys in FF14ARR who think they are super cool and almighty with their numbers. But in mmos... everything is situationnal, especially when it comes to pvp fights or hard pve environment (unless the AI is completly predictible)... having the highest DPS of all is not always the way to go you know. Theory usually only applies when you fight against a Dummy.