Determination seems like a redundant and unnecessary stat

Does Determination have some hidden affect not listed in the tooltip?

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increases the amount of damage dealt by all attacks including auto-attacks, weaponskills and spells. It also increases the amount of HP recovered by spells.

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We already have:

• Weapon Damage
• Magic Damage
• Auto-Attack
• Attack Power (STR/DEX)
• Attack Magic Potency (INT)
• Healing Magic Potency (MND)

Whats the point in having Determination as one of the stats? It kind of bugs me that it takes up a major slot in your equipment when the ratio is like 5x DTR : 1 MainStat. Might as well just tact on 1 more main stat.

If DTR increased Crit dmg or something I would understand but right now it just seems redundant.

Have you ever been rocked by hardmode Titan and not had your determination down debuff removed?

My healing took a nosedive when I casted a heal without esunaing myself just to see how bad the debuff was. Went from cure I healing for 900-1000 to like 200.

My drg's full thrusts went from around 400-500 to 60-70.


It's not a stat that's weighed very heavy like str and crit, but we need it as it synergies well with whatever we do. It's pretty much a stat anyone can benefit from. Makes it valuable in that sense alone.

It's a generic, "increase potency of everything" stat.
The others are specialized.

Put it this way, you want just 5 materia? Or 30 (5 for each of the stat you listed)?

And what other stat "increases the amount of HP recovered by spells" in there? Although it could be a bad phrasing issue, but it sounds like it also talks about HP you get back when you get healed.

It's your ability to not be resisted, so instead of that crit being 1376! it's 1741! That's my thought on what it did. Its part of the formula.

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Originally Posted by Teykos

And what other stat "increases the amount of HP recovered by spells" in there? Although it could be a bad phrasing issue, but it sounds like it also talks about HP you get back when you get healed.

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It is a bad phrasing issue. Determination for healing spells works like Mind. If a player has a ton of Determination, you won't heal him for more than you would anyone else.

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Originally Posted by RowanLauron

It's not a stat that's weighed very heavy like str and crit, but we need it as it synergies well with whatever we do. It's pretty much a stat anyone can benefit from. Makes it valuable in that sense alone.

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Determination is utterly redundant for healers and behaves the same way as Mind by increasing healing potency. It's a very silly stat. That's not to say it's a useless stat, because clearly what it does is important, but it could certainly be done away with in exchange for re-tuning Mind/Strength/Dexterity. I'm not really sure why it exists.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Determination is utterly redundant for healers and behaves the same way as Mind by increasing healing potency.

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Can be said here "Determination is utterly redundant for Archers and behaves the same way as Dexterity by increasing damage potency". In fact you can say that for every class but tanks, since they are the only role that has moves that benefit from all 6 stats (well except Int). In fact, might as well remove all other stats and just have determination huh? It would be a very boring game. In fact, they are already doing that with Morale, the only stat that determines damage in PvP. The reason way you are obviously wrong is that Determination is not the same as the other stats where you add some and get a linear increase in potency. As can be seen when you have Det Down debuff, Determination is a multiplier.

It exists because it provides a decision point between a higher baseline damage/healing and other secondary stats. Period.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Determination is a multiplier.

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I suppose the argument could be made that we need both because they scale differently, yea.

Though truth be told, in response to a point you made earlier in your post, I really don't find the different +potency stats (mnd, str, dex, int) all that engaging. They all do exactly the same thing conceptually, with the distinction they supposedly bring already handled by the disciple/class/job restrictions on gear. You're not going to ever see a WHM wearing +STR gear not because they're actively choosing to avoid STR on their gear but because it's completely unavailable to them. You might call out the attribute points we get as a moment of choice, but... it's not and I really wish Squeenix had designed something more game changing than just "yay spend points in your main stat!"

So yea, in that case, I'm all for rolling mind, strength, dexterity, and intelligence into a single stat and cutting some of the unnecessary stat bloat. Ideally Squeenix would replace it with compelling choices to make regarding modifications to abilities.

On second thought, let's NOT put points into Determination. 'Tis a silly stat. (it's only a model)

Some games use those secondary stats to be more of a direct impact than how base stats work. For example, having a cap on stats. If a cap on MND/STR/whatever is reached, that's where the secondary stat comes in. It may not have additional attributes to it (like DEX increases dmg (for ARC) AND increases crit), but it does affect your performance in a direct way. Another example would be differently scaled multipliers, as some others have indicated.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I suppose the argument could be made that we need both because they scale differently, yea.

Though truth be told, in response to a point you made earlier in your post, I really don't find the different +potency stats (mnd, str, dex, int) all that engaging. They all do exactly the same thing conceptually, with the distinction they supposedly bring already handled by the disciple/class/job restrictions on gear. You're not going to ever see a WHM wearing +STR gear not because they're actively choosing to avoid STR on their gear but because it's completely unavailable to them. You might call out the attribute points we get as a moment of choice, but... it's not and I really wish Squeenix had designed something more game changing than just "yay spend points in your main stat!"

So yea, in that case, I'm all for rolling mind, strength, dexterity, and intelligence into a single stat and cutting some of the unnecessary stat bloat. Ideally Squeenix would replace it with compelling choices to make regarding modifications to abilities.

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Not really sure what you would realistically consider them doing on revolutionizing stats. The only things that came to mind as to what you meant were to either combine everyone's separated stats into one singular stat that everyone would need (i.e. an "output" stat) or to create stats that directly affect only specific abilities/spells. That second one being WAY too complex and pretty much useless. If that were what you intended, have you ever played FFXI? All the gear swapping would pretty much be increased to everything you did, rather than 90% of it lol. Although that system wouldn't work in general given we can't gear swap mid-fight lol.

it's split up so u dont get to much of other stats benefits stacked from those main stats. I.e. if u get dex u also get parry and so on and so forth. So to mitigate this, they split up dmg into another column. I dont see the issue. Also, how does it take up a stat slot? It doesn't take up anything. Its a stat. They can make a piece of gear with 10 stat slots if they wanted. It's not using up anything.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Not really sure what you would realistically consider them doing on revolutionizing stats. The only things that came to mind as to what you meant were to either combine everyone's separated stats into one singular stat that everyone would need (i.e. an "output" stat) or to create stats that directly affect only specific abilities/spells.

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I've never played XI, so I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to but I think I get the gist enough to say that's not exactly what I was implying. I hesitated to mention it because of the stigma associated with A Particular MMO, but I would love to see the attribute points replaced with something similar to WildStar's milestone system or WoW's current incarnation of "talents", where they've done away with the boring "increase damage/healing by x amount" and replaced it with actual meaningful decisions that significantly impact how you play your character based on what you choose. It wouldn't require gear swapping at all (which isn't something that sounds particularly fun - but swapping out "milestones" or "talents" on a fight by fight basis? Yes!)

I think my last post might've gotten confusing, as I got ahead of myself and starting merging the two ideas of "combining all throughput stats into one" and "replacing the attribute point system" when I shouldn't have, so sorry about that. xD

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I've never played XI, so I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to but I think I get the gist enough to say that's not exactly what I was implying. I hesitated to mention it because of the stigma associated with A Particular MMO, but I would love to see the attribute points replaced with something similar to WildStar's milestone system or WoW's current incarnation of "talents", where they've done away with the boring "increase damage/healing by x amount" and replaced it with actual meaningful decisions that significantly impact how you play your character based on what you choose. It wouldn't require gear swapping at all (which isn't something that sounds particularly fun - but swapping out "milestones" or "talents" on a fight by fight basis? Yes!)

I think my last post might've gotten confusing, as I got ahead of myself and starting merging the two ideas of "combining all throughput stats into one" and "replacing the attribute point system" when I shouldn't have, so sorry about that. xD

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Ooohhh that's what you meant. Got ya. A talent system (similar in use to the current WoW one) would be a bit interesting in practice. Unfortunately, people will either complain about it being necessary to "waste time" always switching talents when they hit a wall that "requires" it. Or they'll complain that it's "pointless" to have so many choices when there's always an "ideal" build. That's always been one complaint in WoW, and technically even a complaint here (with the distribution of attribute points).

I'd be down for a talent option like that, as it'd provide a small bit of involvement, but I can't blame SE for not finding it worthwhile to do. People will complain either way, and it just requires a lot of time to plan/balance/create/implement, when they probably have a long-term plan they're eager to work on and have finished.

About the multiplier comment, I can see that being the case. The basic stats like str for example helps increase your base damage modified by weapon damage, and overall damage modified by determination. This would work with any stat really.

Reasoning is the fact that determination down seems to affect numbers a lot, but I'm not a theorycrafter so meh.

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So yea, in that case, I'm all for rolling mind, strength, dexterity, and intelligence into a single stat and cutting some of the unnecessary stat bloat. Ideally Squeenix would replace it with compelling choices to make regarding modifications to abilities.

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That's silly. yeah, instead of having strength, mind, dexterity, etc. that actually represent various characeristics of our character, lets just roll it all into one and call it "stat." All gear just has +X "stat" and nothing else on it. Easy to tell whats stronger and weaker, there's only one problem. From both a roleplaying and gameplay perspective, it's boring as hell. People have been craving more variation in stats, not less.