Is 5 Job Abilities enough (Before level cap increase)?

Now, this might probably be just me, but I do sometimes feel that, for being your JOB, the thing that you can identify yourself to other FF franchises, unlike the unfamiliar classes, we do have very little to run on right now.

I do feel like the Job abilities are more like little flourishes on top of the main foundation of the classes, like you're playing the class with a little extra, which, I think, shouldn't be the case. Now, I'm sure they will eventually add more abilities as the game goes on and will differentiate themselves from the class itself even further, but I do feel that it would be too long until we get more job flavored abilities if we're gonna have to wait for the level cap increase for more skills.

There are many examples that exist in both ends of the spectrum of what, I think, constitute a success in adding something new with a Job.

For some examples. BLM players might get what I mean. Their job abilities hardly change your THM playstyle and it's mostly some nice stuff, like the Ancient Magic (Even if they could have been done a bit better, imo), but, other than that, in terms of gameplay and game mechanics, BLM plays pretty much exactly like THM and I do hope we can see SE work on differentiating the Job from the Class more in the future. Not only in flavor, but in mechanics and gameplay aswell.

There are some better executed examples, like Warrior, where they have their own unique Job Mechanic, Wrath, and we can definitely say we feel something new in the gameplay. There are some "meh" ones, like Dragoon, where they kinda give something new to the gameplay, with the Jumps, but definitely could be better. Maybe by reducing thier cooldowns, which I believe they are doing if we go on what they said on the liveletter, the gameplay change will be felt more significantly. I could go on.

In the end, it feels like most Jobs are kind of incomplete and have some gaps that could be filled, which could justify adding new abilities before raising the level cap (Which will happen possibly an Expansion, though that's just an hyphothesis but I wouldn't want to wait that long).

This is completely my opinion and I'm curious what you guys think. Is 5 job abilities enough for the game until we get a raise in the level cap? Maybe instead of adding Job abilities, add Job traits to add a bit more to the job without adding skills to the hotbar?

yes, it is. quantity of abilities is irrelevant, it's what they do that matters.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

yes, it is. quantity of abilities is irrelevant, it's what they do that matters.

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Did you even read his post? He talks about how some jobs are hardly even distinguishable from their class because the job skills don't do anything to discern them.

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Originally Posted by Holyhunter

Did you even read his post? He talks about how some jobs are hardly even distinguishable from their class because the job skills don't do anything to discern them.

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Thanks, it seems I need to make a habit of making TL;DRs =S

I also propose the idea of Job Traits to help with this without needing to add more abilities, I think both options could be equally valid, it all comes down to execution.

I'm a little torn on this matter. At one side we have Thm>Blm and Lnc>Drg like your examples where your job adds very little to what you actually do anyways. Blm's usual rotation comes from Thm skills except Flare, jumps are mostly useless and have no place in your ideal DPS rotation at all. At this point I just can't see how Thm and Lnc can be made a whole new experience with new jobs (granted they ever get one).

On the other side we have Acn>Smn/Sch. Smn has a plethora of problems on its own but the point is, Smn and Sch have very different play styles despite coming from the same class, and the execution of Sch is done very well (with as little as 5 additional skills). I believe part of this success comes from Arcanist class successfully paving the way for both jobs, as Smn you drop the healing skills and as Sch you drop the damage dealing skills (for the most part) and focus on what your job enhances.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Holyhunter

Did you even read his post? He talks about how some jobs are hardly even distinguishable from their class because the job skills don't do anything to discern them.

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Yes, I read his post, but all that illustrates is that existing abilities could do with some adjustments / changes to heighten their impact.

Did YOU read the topic title?

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Originally Posted by topic title

Is 5 Job Abilities enough (Before level cap increase)?

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I answered the question. It wasn't deserving of the tone of your response. Yes, the number of abilities is enough. The effects are what matter and in some cases, need to be changed.

The other problem here is the OP's vision of the job system vs. what the actual vision is. It was more or less designed to be what the OP apparently doesn't want it to be. The Jobs do not radically transform the classes and they're not supposed to. The Job abilities are supposed to focus the classes more strongly into the roles they were built for. For the most part, they do that, though there are certain abiltiies that don't facilitate that goal (a couple BLM abilities in particular come to mind).

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Originally Posted by ReviiLagoon

No it is not, SCH can do the exact same things as SMN minus the pet and fester. It would have been better to have class abilities from 1-30 be the same, and then from 30-50 be all job abilities, that way you get a unique set of at least 10 or more abilities for each job, making each feel different from their counterpart.

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Hmm.... lets see. All of SCH's job abilities are cures/supportive abiltiies. All of SMN's abilities are DPS focused. Totally the exact same thing.

Two different jobs based on the same class, and they play completely differently. SCH is not as stong as a DPS as SMN is, and SMN certianly isn't anywhere near the healing capability of SCH. Your point has no merit.

Your proposal would do little other than make the classes irrelevant.

No it is not, SCH can do the exact same things as SMN minus the pet and fester. It would have been better to have class abilities from 1-30 be the same, and then from 30-50 be all job abilities, that way you get a unique set of at least 10 or more abilities for each job, making each feel different from their counterpart.

I'm not sure about it either, but SMN/SCH seem fine.
I think when adding new classes, it wouldn't be strange if SE just added abilities to the class to compensate for a new Job. They may do further iterations by moving some abilities to the job specifically as needs be.

It's hard to imagine two jobs of the same role occupying the same class as it is right now.
I'm also really surprised there aren't job traits.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The other problem here is the OP's vision of the job system vs. what the actual vision is. It was more or less designed to be what the OP apparently doesn't want it to be. The Jobs do not radically transform the classes and they're not supposed to. The Job abilities are supposed to focus the classes more strongly into the roles they were built for. For the most part, they do that, though there are certain abiltiies that don't facilitate that goal (a couple BLM abilities in particular come to mind).

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Well, I can start off by saying that I'm pretty sure SE intended to add more abilities by launch but weren't able to meet the date, I can't give you a hard source, though Mr. Happy reiterated this in every beta guide of the Jobs.

Aside from apperantly reading my post and in the same breath judging the post solely by it's title, here's what I think about this particular point.

There's a lot of incosistency. If you say that their vision wasn't to "radically transform" a class, how do you explain that this same vision turned a dps Arcanist into a full fledged healer? Or the same dot-focused Arcanist into something much more focused on pet abilities? This are major transformations that steer the job to a particular path. However there are some that didn't do it well. If you're trying to say that the ones that didn't do it well on changing the class into something unique was the intended way, like BLM or DRG, then we have a strong disagreement. WAR barely tanks like MRD, it has a whole new system to work on. Yes, it has roots of the MRD, but how will you support your argument when they will want to further transform the classes when they have more than one job to branch to?

Your idea is that since it shouldn't have to change radically, it doesn't need to have something that sets it apart from the class, which I don't believe is SE's vision at all. They should want to enrich the job through all of the roots that the FF franchise has to offer and make it more and more unique compared to the standard class it came from.

I'm perfectly happy with how WAR is done, for example, though there are some Jobs that could have be done better to establish themselves as something new and are in need of more things to make them unique. Be it abilities or traits.

I'm not wasting more text on this since I think I made my point pretty clear already, and so have you.

Gladiator to paladin dont see enough play style change, other than them becoming even tougher. Sure, that's the point but...yeah.

Black mages get freeze and flare but freeze is useless and I dont see why the 'it's probably great for pvp' argument is passable since pve should come first (I thought they said pvp will not interfere with pve skills) and the other 3 skills are not very blm-ish, even though manawall is good.

Monk..even though I'm not using this class, the additional action all feel like just skills that pugilists can have. Also what's up with fist of fire? Why is it on monk when the other two is on pugilist? What's gonna happen when pugilist get an alternate job? It just seems odd to me, to not have the full set of stance when it looks like it should be a set because it's on another job.

The thing about Paladin is that 2 of their 5 precious Job ability slots are taken up by stances, which could've changed their gameplay dramatically, but didn't really, and that's ok, but with that you only have 3 more abilities to work with that only do more of the same, which, in my perspective, leaves the player wanting more.

That's the other thing, many of the first 5 Job abilities are things that are fundamental for the Job's sucess, like PLD's shield oath and WAR's Defiance, and take up the 5 abilities of the Job. Also, abilities that enhance other abilities, like Infuriate are kind of dull right NOW, when, in the WAR's case, only have 3 abilities that enjoy the dynamic workings of this ability. It will get better as more abilities come that can interact with it, which is one of the reasons that I think more abilities could make Job's more fun and interesting.

I'd like to see some changes about that. Something that would make the paladin constantly try to switch stances between sword and shield oath on the fly as much as possible (and get something out of it) while having to watch out for their mana (It's like 216 MP to turn on/switch with 1400 mp iirc)

As it is right now, I either not watch my mp during normal party situations or boss battles or blast through my mana for flash and riot spam in an aoe speed run.

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Originally Posted by ReviiLagoon

No it is not, SCH can do the exact same things as SMN minus the pet and fester. It would have been better to have class abilities from 1-30 be the same, and then from 30-50 be all job abilities, that way you get a unique set of at least 10 or more abilities for each job, making each feel different from their counterpart.

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I feel SMN is a really badly done class when it comes to it's abilities from the SMN class. I mean it gets rouse v2.0 as one of it's skills, really SE? Enkindle is also incredibly boring and the AOE bind is essentially useless...

I also have more DOT's than a SMN does as SCH, and I think cleric stance DOT's tick harder than SMN DOT's unless they raging strikes them. All you get from being a SMN over a SCH is basically fester and contagion, and arcanist gets contagion.

I think they really messed up a LOT of jobs, and only giving jobs 5 skills over classes wasn't a good decision, but it was an even worse decision to make jobs 100% required and classes 100% utterly useless in every party situation at end game.

I don't want more abilities I need to hotkey. It would be nice, though, if your class learned less abilities past level 30 and more were gained for your job.

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Originally Posted by Espon

I don't want more abilities I need to hotkey. It would be nice, though, if your class learned less abilities past level 30 and more were gained for your job.

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That's why there's the other alternative, Job traits.

I have to agree that smn/sch is a bad example. At least ARC/SMN because they both feel/are the same. Only SCH is slightly different.

I think the answer is that it really all depends on if your role changes from one job to the next.

If you're a Gladiator, when you make the switch to Paladin, your playstyle doesn't change because you're still a tank. You did tank stuff as a Gladiator and you're doing tank stuff as a Paladin, except now you've got new toys to play with. If you're an Arcanist, now you have the choice between staying a damage dealer (in which case, just like with the Gladiator, you don't really do anything different besides have new toys to play with) or you can switch to healer (so you're doing something brand new and different than what you had been doing).

In other words, if your role doesn't change, 5 job abilities may not feel like enough because you're generally still doing the same thing. If your role DOES change, then they start to feel good, because those five abilities have to be enough to make you perform your new job good enough to be competitive.

Well, there are some that isn't *just* new toys on top of the skills from your class, Warrior has their own mechanic that has its own flow and dynamic, it's a pretty high bar they set, when they just go average with stuff like GLD -> PLD. I don't know, they could do much more than just adding more stuff that could have easily been added into the class, instead of seperating it into a Job, and assume it's special just because of this. They could do more than what they have right now. *Shrug*

Overall I can only agree with the sentiment that the base classes should stop gaining abilities after 30. Fill the gap from 30-50 with abilities from the advanced job. Here is hoping that when they increase the level cap they introduce new abilities that actually help to differentiate you from your base class.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

I have to agree that smn/sch is a bad example. At least ARC/SMN because they both feel/are the same. Only SCH is slightly different.

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Now, Summoner is Arcanist
Like Scholar also Arcanist is

As a Paladin, Circle of Scorn feels a bit.. lame. I use it to help with damage and threat but honestly, it's not much plus the cooldown is ridiculous considering there's barely any benefit from it. Spirits Within has a silence effect and does tons of damage with a close cooldown. I wish they change Circle of Scorn and make it so we generate threat from mobs immensely with it. Then I would be more happy having it. The animation is nice at least.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Now, Summoner is Arcanist
Like Scholar also Arcanist is

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I don't know if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

In my opinion the advanced job like the title implies should take the concept of the base class further. But this is not really the case for most jobs.

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Originally Posted by Yagrush

Well, there are some that isn't *just* new toys on top of the skills from your class, Warrior has their own mechanic that has its own flow and dynamic, it's a pretty high bar they set, when they just go average with stuff like GLD -> PLD. I don't know, they could do much more than just adding more stuff that could have easily been added into the class, instead of seperating it into a Job, and assume it's special just because of this. They could do more than what they have right now. *Shrug*

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now, for most class, jobs are just an enhancement of their base role, and job abilities will mater when SE add a second job for classe like for ACN .

Imo PLD/GLA got some skilled wrongly set if SE plan to add a DD glad job they'll miss sword oath and have little use of bulwark.

BRD got F... by DF and turn from support role to a DD with some support ablity to match the 1-1-2/2-2-4 roles

I'm all for improving jobs, just as long as it doesn't involve unnecessary skill boat for the sake of trying to discern the two.

Visual changes, procs, additional combinations, a tweak in how the class is played, staple abilities -- just a few things that could help reform, without needing to throw a bunch of new abilities at each job.

Personally I like to have many skills. Yet in FFXIV I don't expect to see more skills incomming, if it happens, than only on a low-key based cours of time with not more than 1-2 Skills for each job.

While it's no problem to handle many skills for PC users with their Hotbars, FFXIV has always keep an eye on the PS3-Players. The abilitys of a controller is limited and I can't think of a way it would be possible to handle a horde of abilities like in WoW with a controller.

The way I see it , at least in the case of BLM , is that youre not really a BLM , sure youre powerful and adept in the dark arts. But all along youre a THM being trained by black mages to complete some rituals and learn a few ancient spells to add to your arsenal.

Im assuming the same with bard , you dony suddenly become a bard , youre still an archer.

Im all for distinguishing jobs clearly from their base classes but that wont happen else theyd have to balance not 9 jobs but 17 in pve and pvp.

I really hope they go down the route of 2 jobs per class like Arcanist. Therefore you'll have a job that is an addition to the class (like BLM and THM) while adding something that differs like a support job (Red Mage possibly) with different mechanics.

The job system does exactly what was told to us it would do. Advanced classes (SMN, Drg etc.) are SUPPOSED to be advanced DPS to their DPS classes. Can ARN do as much DPS as SMN? NOPE Can LNC do as much DPS as DRG? NOPE. just look at the stats when you equip the crystal your INT and STR go up a lot compared to the classes. But the down side is you lose the ability to use most cross class skills. Its a trade off and when you are in a party you want the most DPS and the best healing and that's what jobs offer.

Advanced does not equal COMPLETELY NEW MIND BLOWING CHANGE.

Your doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Monk..even though I'm not using this class, the additional action all feel like just skills that pugilists can have. Also what's up with fist of fire? Why is it on monk when the other two is on pugilist? What's gonna happen when pugilist get an alternate job?

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Fists of Water? Fists of Ice?

The class system also points out this key failing in the armory system. Jobs are required to share skills from a origin class making them feel samey.