Arcanist vs SMN (dps wise)

I'm just curious if anyone has done the math whether ACN is a better single target dps than SMN, using allagan book of course since ACN can't use relic.

you lose 20 int when removing the summoner soulstone.

what else do you lose dps wise? fester, rouse, enkindle.

fester could be replaced with energy drain, so it really isn't 300 potency total loss.

what do you gain when using ACN. internal release, blood for blood, and aero.

aero alone makes up for fester's 150 potency loss.

so the real question is, which is better.

20 int, spur, enkindle VS internal release and blood for blood.

blood for blood is a 7.5% damage increase (averaged).

internal release is 6% crit increase (averaged).

are those enough to beat 20 int at least?

enkindle is 2 dps single target. (with rouse and spur, much less without, I say 2 instead of 3 because your garuda spends a windblade cooldown when casting it)

I'm guessing spur too is just another low dps, since it too is on a high cd.

EDIT: (also btw, on ARC BiS, you lose 55 crit total, helm and chest is for SMN only, so you have to settle for allagan pieces) in exchange, you gain 15 determination and 24 spellspeed., 55 crit is 4% crit chance.

other than that, it's still possible to reach caster hit cap on an arcanist.

ADD: people have been asking why is fester equal to aero + energy drain.

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fester + ruin is 380 potency

energy drain + aero is 366.6 potency (factored in contagioned aero and the 1 minute mark cause aetherflow and 18 second duration, also the gcd)

14 potency difference.

but then we still haven't factored internal release,bfb,raging strikes on a contagioned dot, we have only factored these temporary buffs for it's duration. so we're seeing more than a 7.5% raw dps increase.

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Most classes will, more than likely, be stronger than jobs assuming full allagan+allagan weapon. That's a pretty steep assumption, though.

Exception is MNK, but if you have a second MNK applying DK then PUG would probably be better. This would mean PUG has 0 AoE, and would TP starve even faster, though(VB).

This is just eyeballing it, but jobs don't REALLY offer much, except for SCH/WHM/PLD, and if tanking then WAR.

donno about int, but 20 str for a dragoon was 5.5% damage
blood for blood is 20% damage for 20s every 80s, up 1/4th the time, .2*.25= .05 or 5% damage increase. the stone by itself outweighs blood for blood on average

internal release is 20% crit for 15s every 60s, up 1/4th the time, thats .2*.25 again, so 5% chance to do 50% more damage, average of 2.5% damage increase.

im no summoner, but i'd think the pet alone is worth more than 2.5% damage, extending DoT time and all, not to mention fester.

i think youre taking into account traits that you wouldnt have normally in your averages

@xyaie

blood for blood is 30% increase

internal release is also 30%

pet is 20-30% damage increase, ACN still has a pet with contagion.

aero + energy drain is equal to fester

I'm not sure if there are any job specific traits.

I would say hands down allagan geared ACN beats SMN.

Mostly because Energy Drain is also potential DPS gain because of mana, Aero is a much, much better spell than Ruin II, and BFB and IR are great cooldowns.

Furthermore, and (not sure if this is even possibly relevant), possibly earth shield is useful...?

Jobs are horribly, horribly designed atm.

Also i can't remember, but can ACN get a filler thats better than ruin? I think the answer is no but I can't remember off the top of my head.

Blood for Blood is only 30% for LNC/DRG.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Blood for Blood is only 30% for LNC/DRG.

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you're right.

I assumed 30 was correct cause of http://xivdb.com/?skilltree/Arcanist

Yeah, it's really annoying that the "base" abilities aren't shown anywhere on xivdb. Makes it really annoying to try to theorycraft anything without logging into the game and seeing what the base values are, which isn't always possible.

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Originally Posted by glim

you're right.

I assumed 30 was correct cause of http://xivdb.com/?skilltree/Arcanist

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xivdb will always display the class specific versions that are traited (though oddly, NOT any traits that lower cooldowns...weird).

To see a cross class skill, open it then click the "Main" button to turn it into "Sub", which will show the base cross class'd value.

so I guess, all in all it's

7.5% damage increase (bb and ir) vs 20 int, enkindle and spur.

BfB: 20% boost for 20 seconds every 80 seconds.
IR: 20% crit boost for 15 seconds every 60 seconds.
Aero: Net potency 200 (lowest DoT available to us aside from Miasma II; replaces 1 Ruin compared to typical SMN routine so net +120 potency usually, 325 potency if under Contagion)

Energy Drain does not make the loss of Fester insignificant, don't kid yourself. Still net -450 potency per Aetherflow.
Emerald Carbuncle's Gust is 90pot vs Garuda's 100 on Wind Blade. Couple with the loss of Spur (40% for 20s every 2 minutes is not as minor as it seems) and reduced INT compared to SMN and I honestly believe this is a wash.

Here's some napkin math of just BfB+our available DoTs (relative to a SMN, just considering potency and ignoring Raging Strikes since both get it)
*Reminder that all DoTs tick every 3 seconds, so net potency is Initial Potency + (DoT potency x [DoT duration / 3])

Bio II: 420 (+70)
Miasma: 360 (+60)
Shadow Flare: 300 (+50)
Bio: 288 (+44)
Thunder: 288 (+44)
Aero: 240 (+40; technically +240)
Miasma II: 84 (+14)

Excepting Miasma II since there's little point using it single-target, the net potency gain is 522 (282 if Aero is not counted). If we also consider the potency drop from Wind Blade > Gust (10), across say 18 seconds (duration for many of our DoTs), that's -60 to our total. So more like 462 vs the 450 you "lost" from Fester.

You would have a pretty killer Contagion and that would probably make this worth considering. But it shouldn't be an immediately obvious vote and Allagan book is far beyond the reach of most SMNs or would-be ACNs yet.

That would be pretty close I think.

Don't forget also um, Garuda is like 10% damage increase over emerald.

IIRC w/o spur you lose ~2% of your total dps, and pet is approximately 25% of total dps, so losing 10% of that is about 2.5%

Since SMN pps, is ~123.6pps, losing 2 pps from enkindle is 1.6% dps loss.

Combine all of that and you get ~6-6.5% pps loss from those.

7.5% pps gain from BfB/IR, so 1-1.5% dps vs 20 int.

20 int might just win out.

I think fully geared we have ...500 int? so 20 int is 4% of our total int.

Its...well its pretty close to be sure lol.

Aero + Energy Drain =/= Fester. Aero is on GCD. Fester is completely off of it. That is of very high significance in terms of DPS.

The net loss of INT alone from SMN to ACN is sufficient to dismiss this discussion. The loss of 20 INT due to the soul stone is arguably sufficient, but there's also the fact that the highest ilvl weapon you can equip on ACN is 70, versus the ilvl 90 Relic +1.

Let's say you defeated Twintania and got your hands on the Allagan Grimoire.

Garuda Egi and Ifrit Egi both have superior DPS to Emerald Carbuncle.

Enkindle and Spur have a significant impact on damage output. Blood for Blood and Internal Release, while being very potent buffs, do not make up for the difference.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

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aero is 200 potency, energy drain is 150, that's 350, minus the ruin that it replace 270. contagion per minute for aero alone is 125 potency, this means energy drain plus aetherflow is equal or at least close to equal when compared to fester.

also, I know the book isn't that readily available yet, but that's really not the point. = /

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But it shouldn't be an immediately obvious vote

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that's why I'm trying to figure this out?


EDIT: I reached character post limit -_-


EDIT:

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

I don't know why you're comparing Energy Drain with anything that isn't Fester. It's 150 vs 300 3 times every minute.

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because there is no reason not to, it makes it easier to narrow down the comparisons.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I told you why you cannot bunch Aero and Energy Drain together to compare against Fester.

Aero is a GCD skill.

Fester and Energy Drain are Aetherflow charge skills that are off GCD.

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HAVE YOU NOT BEEN READING MY POSTS? I already factored in the GCD, the GCD that it will replace is RUIN, that's minus 80 potency, and I have factored it.

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enkindle and Spur have a significant impact on damage output. Blood for Blood and Internal Release, while being very potent buffs, do not make up for the difference.

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no, for single target, enkindle is very very bad. about 2 dps total increase, I'm not sure for spur but it's probably that low too.

while BfB and IR is a raw 7.5% damage increase (already averaged) (and also without valuing in the potential contagion with it)

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Originally Posted by LostCody

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If you've been reading my posts, I have already factored in ruin, and in 1 minute, you can get 3 aeros (with extra six seconds) , same for fester 3 festers per minute. I have already factored ruin potency as well as contagion.

in the end, it's 366.6 potency vs 380 potency, in favor of fester + ruin over energy drain + aero.

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the whole aero+energy vs fester is worse off,not just on potency alone but in burst.

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you get bursts, you can dish out 3 energy drains in ten seconds with a total of 450 potency, fester is 300 potency every ten seconds and requires to have all 3 dots up, and you have 3 cooldowns, this IS burst.

we have also not taken into account extended empowered dots by contagion, with 3 buffs vs 1, internal release, bfb and raging strikes, as opposed to just raging strikes. and this alone is more than enough to counter the missing 14.4 potency fester + ruin has against energy drain + aero.


Also, let me be clear that I am not in favor of ACN or SMN, I just want to see what's better, it may seem that I'm leaning towards ACN more, but that's because I'm just defending it's position since a lot of people are testing it if it will stand under scrutiny.


let me also add this, I was supposed to add this earlier (check quote below)

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fester + ruin is 380 potency

energy drain + aero is 366.6 potency (factored in contagioned aero and the 1 minute mark cause aetherflow, also the gcd)

14 potency difference.

but then we still haven't factored internal release,bfb,raging strikes on a contagioned dot, we have only factored these temporary buffs for it's duration. so we're seeing more than a 7.5% raw dps increase.

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I AM STILL AT CHARACTER POSTING CAP, SO I'LL BE ANSWERING VIA EDITS

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Originally Posted by LostCody

engrish snip

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you were arguing about burst, I only countered it that ACN will have a more controlled burst than SMN, whether it be short burst, long burst or medium burst. you have more control on burst with ACN than a SMN, especially with 3 cooldowns to choose from.

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also were are you seeing arcanist getting internal release, bfb and raging strikes?
arcanist isn't even close too a monk or a dragoon so why would it get those buffs? you get raging strikes thru thm side job which gets it thru its archer sub job so how could a arcanist get raging strikes?
please explain.

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cross class skills.. you get raging strikes at level 4 archer.. and you can use it for cross classes. please search on to this now that you know it I'm not here to explain how cross class skills work.

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if using garuda/carbuncle there is a 10 potency difference between the 2,over a min both would attack 20 times.thats a 200 potency difference over the course of a min.
so even if yours was true I think it would make up the difference.

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that's two hundred pet potency, not your own potency, still it is noteworthy, which is why I mentioned that extended dots via contagion with 5 dots that are empowered with IR BFB is more than enough of a compensation.


LOSTCODY's SNIP: ps: this is an awkward way to reply to you via edits, but I'll answer your questions on post #21.

if you're spending all 900 potency of your atheorflows via fester, then it no longer is a "burst" since you're bottlenecked on cooldowns. there is no argument, ACN has better burst than SMN that is the end of discussion for the "burst matter". 3 buffs plus a 150 potency attack that has a 3 second cd, if the fight reaches more than 30 seconds then there's no point to call it a "burst", burst scenarios are 15 seconds THE MOST, and most of the time burst scenarios are 5-10 seconds... gaol is an example. turn 1-4 I don't see in any way a "30 second burst" is needed, if it's 30 seconds then it's not a burst since you'll get full duration from all your dots anyway... (even if you consider it a burst, you still have 3 cooldowns)

I'm not getting pissy, I was poking fun at you.

ok here's the math for contagioned bfb ir increase vs 200 pet potency deficiency because of the loss of garuda.

all 5 dots (bio2, miasma, bio,aero,thunder) contagion value is 850 potency, bfb is 20% increase, ir is 10% increase average (20% crit), a total of 30% raw dps increase, 30% of 825 is 255.

that's 255 character potency vs 200 pet potency.

I don't know why you're comparing Energy Drain with anything that isn't Fester. It's 150 vs 300 3 times every minute.

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Originally Posted by glim

because there is no reason not to, it makes it easier to narrow down the comparisons.

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I told you why you cannot bunch Aero and Energy Drain together to compare against Fester.

Aero is a GCD skill.

Fester and Energy Drain are Aetherflow charge skills that are off GCD.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I told you why you cannot bunch Aero and Energy Drain together to compare against Fester.

Aero is a GCD skill.

Fester and Energy Drain are Aetherflow charge skills that are off GCD.

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From what I've read it's comparing aero + energy drain to fester+ ruin since you ruin when all your dots are up

first off for aero and a energy drain too equal 1 fester it takes 12 seconds of the 18. so 3 aero=54 seconds and if you factor in the time inbetween aero casts from the gc its about the same time you get another stack of aether flow.
so that's an extra what 150 potency over the course of a min with aero.
but if a smn did not have aero he would replace an aero cast with a ruin cast.
so 3 aeros have put you in the down time of 7.5 seconds in waiting to cast something else.
in that time if you started off fresh you could cast 2 ruins in that time 3 if there ruin 2s.
so 2 ruins 160 potency or 3 ruin 2s 240 potency.

the whole aero+energy vs fester is worse off,not just on potency alone but in burst.smn already has shacky burst damage and removing fester and spur/enkindle only makes it worse.
now this is all off the top of my head and could be wrong,but the way I see it aero is not worth it and definitely not worth the spur/enkindle/fester trade off.
not too mention the potency difference on the pets alone and the int buff for just being a smn also the 20%damage of raging strikes.

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Originally Posted by glim

you get bursts, you can dish out 3 energy drains in ten seconds with a total of 450 potency, fester is 300 potency every ten seconds and requires to have all 3 dots up, and you have 3 cooldowns, this IS burst.

we have also not taken into account extended empowered dots by contagion, with 3 buffs vs 1, internal release, bfb and raging strikes, as opposed to just raging strikes. and this alone is more than enough to counter the missing 14.4 potency fester + ruin has against energy drain + aero.

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your right on paper,actually get in game then figure out that it doesn't work like that.
so on that burst alone,what does 450 potency kill?a plume in garuda hm,maybe 2?were there is add in a boss fight there are usually more,and that 450 burst over 10 seconds is limited too once a min.
so your right on small adds and any enemies that die automatically too it,but if you fight anything with more hp then what?your going too have too setup anyway and at that point im already heading into my next fester.
this is even more true on titan hm heart or any primal fight.


also were are you seeing arcanist getting internal release, bfb and raging strikes?
arcanist isn't even close too a monk or a dragoon so why would it get those buffs? you get raging strikes thru thm side job which gets it thru its archer sub job so how could a arcanist get raging strikes?
please explain.

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Originally Posted by glim

this alone is more than enough to counter the missing 14.4 potency fester + ruin has against energy drain + aero.

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if using garuda/carbuncle there is a 10 potency difference between the 2,over a min both would attack 20 times.thats a 200 potency difference over the course of a min.
so even if yours was true I think it would make up the difference.

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Originally Posted by LostCody

also were are you seeing arcanist getting internal release, bfb and raging strikes?
arcanist isn't even close too a monk or a dragoon so why would it get those buffs? you get raging strikes thru thm side job which gets it thru its archer sub job so how could a arcanist get raging strikes?
please explain.

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it's a cross class skill
even summoner can use raging strikes
not sure about blood for blood and internal release though.

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Originally Posted by glim

you were arguing about burst, I only countered it that ACN will have a more controlled burst than SMN, whether it be short burst, long burst or medium burst. you have more control on burst with ACN than a SMN, especially with 3 cooldowns to choose from.

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first off smn has longer burst with 900 potency compared too the 450,so don't know where you going there and medium is the same thing.
also smn has access energy drain,so why don't you see a smn spamming energy drain if its as good as you say?because any 450 potency burst that would badly hurt a add or kill it is not worth wasting aetherflow on when that could have gone too festering the boss or using bane.

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Originally Posted by glim

cross class skills.. you get raging strikes at level 4 archer.. and you can use it for cross classes. please search on to this now that you know it I'm not here to explain how cross class skills work.

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must have been using a non updated database for the cross skills.alright my bad on that one.

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Originally Posted by glim

engrish snip

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alright no need too get pissy.just discussing the topic,so lets keep it that way.

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Originally Posted by glim

that's two hundred pet potency, not your own potency, still it is noteworthy, which is why I mentioned that extended dots via contagion with 5 dots that are empowered with IR BFB is more than enough of a compensation.

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also you got the math on that?would like too see it.

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Originally Posted by LostCody

you get raging strikes thru thm side job which gets it thru its archer sub job?
please explain.

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Huh? A SMN/ACN gets Raging Strikes as a cross-class skill from Archer, it has nothing to do with THM.

Do you guys not read the tooltips on the bloody ability saying which classes (read: basically all of them for any thing that CAN be cross-classed) can use which abilities? It's not a big mystery if they get it or not. They do.

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Originally Posted by LostCody

also were are you seeing arcanist getting internal release, bfb and raging strikes?
arcanist isn't even close too a monk or a dragoon so why would it get those buffs? you get raging strikes thru thm side job which gets it thru its archer sub job so how could a arcanist get raging strikes?
please explain.

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Arcanist is a class and has access to abilities from all classes, not a specific 2 like Jobs are. In terms of which abilities can be acquired (and are given to us to choose from via the armoury system), it's possible for any class to pick any self buff from another class. Internal Release, BfB and Raging Strikes are all self buffs which are provided through the system. Noting the first point, then, an Arcanist (as a class) can select to use those 3 abilities.

As additional information, only DoMs can use offensive magic abilities (eg, Thunder, Aero) and only DoWs can use offensive non-magic abilities (eg, Skull Sunder, Savage Blade) with the exception of certain oGCD abilities (Mercy Stroke). All can use buffs and enhancing/healing magic.

Also, Summoner gets Raging Strikes because the second class that a SMN can choose abilities from happens to be Archer, which is the class which provides it.

Ok I realize there are cross class abilities and smn gets strikes.
I know this.
at the time I was using a database that was out of date or just wrong and did not list those as a cross class abilitys on the arcanist,it only listed some blm and conj abilities.

I WANT TO REPLY SO BAD BUT I CAN'T

edit: oh wait, I can now.. brb going to that "smn info tips" I left my reply on edits for you lost cody.

I got the freaking "New forum post cannot be made due to either you have reached to your daily limit or your main character's level is not high enough." again.

the reply is still on the edit pile, I'll post it here.

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LOSTCODY's SNIP: ps: this is an awkward way to reply to you via edits, but I'll answer your questions on post #21.

if you're spending all 900 potency of your atheorflows via fester, then it no longer is a "burst" since you're bottlenecked on cooldowns. there is no argument, ACN has better burst than SMN that is the end of discussion for the "burst matter". 3 buffs plus a 150 potency attack that has a 3 second cd, if the fight reaches more than 30 seconds then there's no point to call it a "burst", burst scenarios are 15 seconds THE MOST, and most of the time burst scenarios are 5-10 seconds... gaol is an example. turn 1-4 I don't see in any way a "30 second burst" is needed, if it's 30 seconds then it's not a burst since you'll get full duration from all your dots anyway... (even if you consider it a burst, you still have 3 cooldowns)

I'm not getting pissy, I was poking fun at you.

ok here's the math for contagioned bfb ir increase vs 200 pet potency deficiency because of the loss of garuda.

all 5 dots (bio2, miasma, bio,aero,thunder) contagion value is 850 potency, bfb is 20% increase, ir is 10% increase average (20% crit), a total of 30% raw dps increase, 30% of 825 is 255.

that's 255 character potency vs 200 pet potency.

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Originally Posted by glim

I WANT TO REPLY SO BAD BUT I CAN'T

edit: oh wait, I can now.. brb going to that "smn info tips" I left my reply on edits for you lost cody.

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looking forward too it buddy.

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Originally Posted by glim

ACN has better burst than SMN that is the end of discussion for the "burst matter". 3 buffs plus a 150 potency attack that has a 3 second cd, if the fight reaches more than 30 seconds then there's no point to call it a "burst", burst scenarios are 15 seconds THE MOST, and most of the time burst scenarios are 5-10 seconds... gaol is an example. turn 1-4 I don't see in any way a "30 second burst" is needed, if it's 30 seconds then it's not a burst since you'll get full duration from all your dots anyway... (even if you consider it a burst, you still have 3 cooldowns

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at this point it comes down too what you consider a burst phase.i consider titans heart a burst phase and that's over 15 seconds.you could also count when someone gets jailed as a burst "phase" and in one of those scenarios energy drain is better and the other fester is better.
then it comes down too the heart of the problem,the limited amount of aetherflow.i would not use energy drain on anything low health were energy drain would be optimal because I only get 3 stacks and those would be better served on taking down the boss and as far as time goes ruin followed by ruin 2 is just as effective of bursting low hp targets like a granite jail or a lone plume.

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Originally Posted by glim

all 5 dots (bio2, miasma, bio,aero,thunder) contagion value is 850 potency, bfb is 20% increase, ir is 10% increase average (20% crit), a total of 30% raw dps increase, 30% of 825 is 255.

that's 255 character potency vs 200 pet potency.

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factor in the 20 extra int just for being a smn,the extra ruin potency from the difference between fester/aero then that number gets smaller.
not even too mention that bfb is on a 80 sec cd and only last 20secs and for ir 60 sec cd and only 15 secs.during the minute and 45 second downtime respectively when your not doing that extra 30% you will get some vastly different numbers then if you just assumed it was a static 30%increase