The markets, stalls, price listing and undercutting. (A suggestion)

Lately on our server {Besaid} there has been a TON of undercutting following the latest patch making it harder and harder to turn a profit from any synth. My LS and I were having a discussion on the recent prices of red glass lenses, silver alembics, glue, and really from what I hear, everything we craft.

I understand that now that quest mobs drop loot it's easier to get a-hold of some of the more difficult mats. Ahriman wings for example.

The undercutting has become more prevalent after the update that added price listings to the item search counter. More than convenient, having it show the 'cheapest' listings has become more of a competition between sellers to get their gear sold first. The finished items generally cost less than the mats together.

I'm not quite sure what to blame, bots or the competitive spirit and ass-hattery that's taken over the wards. Now this isn't meant to spark a debate or argument, but we've been discussing (My LS and I) ways to apply a hotfix until more gil sinks are added to the game which we believe are important(Chocobos, airships, etc.)


Stalls: No one uses them anymore, they're just not necessary other than to provide us with an even more expensive way to sell our goods.
Our first idea was to limit price listings to those using stalls, or a fee to the price listing itself. An extra tax per se.

To stop stall camping, a cool down timer would be added, or a queue much like those on leves.

I always thought the stalls were interesting, and they should reward those who use them some sort of benefit.
I enjoy the Item search counter but the price listing is killing us.

Price listing tax: By having your prices announced in the Item Search Counter, there should be an added tax of a certain percentage of the items sold, or a daily/36 hour straight fee. I'm more for the percentage as it wouldn't discriminate against you whether you're rich or poor.

But what about the stalls? One way to benefit those who use them, and to justify the cost of running one, the price listing for those using stalls would be slashed to 0 allowing their items to be posted with no fee.


I don't really know how to end this post. ): So pip pip. Discuss.

I love when people use the word "Undercutting" as if the person doing it is the bad person.

When a producer undercuts, It is usually because they can make a profit while still granting an affordable price for an item.

When a Producers price is undercut by another person it usually means that producer is Overcharging for the item to make pure profit.

In a Free Market these events should always be allowed to happen unhindered it is what leads to competition and balancing the economy.

The problem that is faced in an MMO versus the Real world is Marketing. An item that is similar to another can be sold easily for a higher price with the right marketing. The best example of this is the iPod.

If you look at the core things an iPod Does.

Catalog, organize, and play music.

It is a wonder it sells so much when there are plenty of other devices out there that also Catalog, Organize, and Play Music. Some for much cheaper? So why does the iPod sell more then most other MP3 players?

Advertising and Marketing. Pure and simple. These features can not be used in FFXIV. Because no matter what a player does to produce an item it will always be that item. They can not modify it to add a feature that others might want more thus increasing its value to the next user.

How can this be fixed? We already know of a system that is coming that will help. Materia.

If a Crafter can make an item, instil materia into it that makes that item more powerful and thus more appealing, he can get away with charging more for it and making a sell. But again once another user can make the exact same item with the same materia load out, do it cheaper and make a profit he will. Thats how an economy should work.

Fair point, our markets are also over saturated with many of the same goods which go unsold week after week, and people get impatient and lower their prices just to make 'something' which is frustrating as the price just keeps getting lower and lower.

If however the undercutting was being done because it's cheaper easier, that's just fine.

But what I'm seeing at least on my server is this: You pay a steady price for an item, perhaps upwards to 2-3k, there isn't always a lot it, but you get what you can get. Then suddenly one day, someone puts up half a stack, drops the price down to 1k, and the price steadily declines even after the stock has been depleted and that seller is gone.

I undercut because I want MINE to sell fast and before everyone elses. Cant blame me for that :D

But im mainly only in the shard department. Until you cant see the price (which i doubt will ever happen) you will always, always, always get undercutting.

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Originally Posted by viion

I undercut because I want MINE to sell fast and before everyone elses. Cant blame me for that :D

But im mainly only in the shard department. Until you cant see the price (which i doubt will ever happen) you will always, always, always get undercutting.

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This is the other element of Undercutting that I forgot to mention.

Product Stock. If there is too much stock and not enough demand the price should drop. If the stock disappears and never replenishes the price should go back up.

ya like on my server the prices stay bout the same cus one day theirs none of that product and the next theirs alot of it

The problem is the price never does go back up on a lot of things. Like fish. At least not for very long. You always have people willing to take a dip in their profit to sell just ever so slightly over the NPC price just to make a little more qil, a bit more quickly.

Sorry double post.

However, another point to this thread is reworking of the stalls, they're really interesting and could serve another purpose.

I like how the market works, instead of XI where a price HISTORY was shown allowing people to artificially inflate items. But to show the cheapest...Lol, pretty much what Premium Virtue said. There doesn't even have to be a large stock of items for others to have the same thing in mind.

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Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly

But what I'm seeing at least on my server is this: You pay a steady price for an item, perhaps upwards to 2-3k, there isn't always a lot it, but you get what you can get. Then suddenly one day, someone puts up half a stack, drops the price down to 1k, and the price steadily declines even after the stock has been depleted and that seller is gone.

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That's called the laws of economics knocking on your door and telling you that everything is just according to keikaku*.






*translator's note: "keikakku" means "plan".

I like your idea TC but I personally think they are going in favor of an AH in the future so I wont comment any further, however I will say one thing that if they stick with MW I think your idea is great, it gives stalls a clear benefit and makes it so the search only shows you a limited number of prices. Thumbs up.

"Undercutting the Competition", best leve name in the game & something I do often

Too bad applying full laws of economy on a game won't work. ): Personally I just call it being a dick.

I know of ways to play the market in other games, buy low sell high, but with XIV there are (in the words of one of my friends) limitless supply. Hopefully by the time the Materia system is released there will be more sought after items to farm, create, and sell that aren't in such abundance.

Truthfully it'll be a problem either way, but to better the MW would be a nice change

Cant really call it being a dick. If I craft up 10k shards and want them sold by end of the night, the only way is to undercut, similar with Fishing (i dont fish but if i did) I would want them to sell so I make a lot of money right away before price goes even further down and im stuck with them.

There is no reason really to put stuff on the market at a price higher than the lowest because you as a buyer will not pay the higher price will you?

In the end, the buyers are just as bad as the sellers in that they will only pay for the cheapest deals.

I've needed fish for many Alch synths and I will never ever buy higher than the current lowest, even then sometimes I won't buy at all and just ask my brother to fish it for me or wait until it's reduced.

I cant speak for everyone, but I personally sell items lower than the mode rate when they have been sitting in my retainer/bizarre shop for more than a week. I dont do this to make gill I do it to get the item out of my inventory as fast as possible.

The 2 retainer limitation makes it hard to keep a large inventory of items, and I dont use additional mule characters to my stuff so I try to get rid of "junk" as fast as possible in the wards. The majority of the stuff I may sell at a significantly reduced price are loot i picked up doing leves/grinding or old gear I no longer equip.

I have more stuff coming in faster than I can get rid of it so the only solution is to "undercut" the market or sell it to the NPC. Just an example, I may collect upwards of 5,000 lightning shards per month just as loot from mobs. The going rate may be 150 gill for these, well I will sell them at 99 gill just to get them out of my inventory as fast as possible.

I think buyers ARE just as bad, if I see a fish on sale I'd buy it, but I'd still buy it even if it were priced a little higher. Same with shards, if I saw full stacks of 999 I'd purchase them at 200 the same as if I'd purchase them at 100.

I'm not a fool I get what you're all saying, but another point is that there are just no gil sinks in this game and nothing to keep the prices at a steady amount to encourage making what you deserve for certain items. When selling stacks of crafted items to an NPC is more profitable than selling them on the market that's...kind of stupid. Even if there is a demand and someone rises to fulfil it there will be others right behind him ready to undercut.


The market listing of Cheapest first is partially to blame for this, by limiting the amount of prices listed and taxing the listed price it could hopefully assist everyone in the long run to make a higher profit to encourage more use of the market. Especially in areas other than Ul'dah.

You'd think most people are smart enough to understand basic game economics, but it does seem to be challenging to some people.

Two very frustrating instances I've had were selling Pearl Rings and two Broken Aeolian Scimitars. The pearl rings I was putting up for 50k a ring and was the only seller. I'd sell at least two a day and then I started to get competition against one person. Not only did this person undercut, they lowered the price by 60%. Now, I ask you, if you have only one other person as your competition, how is it smart to immediately go to your floor price? If it were blind pricing with just a history, people tend to not do this. At least, not as often as in FFXIV.

As for the Broken Aeolian Scimitars on my server, there were only a handful and they were decently priced. The first couple of sellers judged how much it should be by deducting the prices of the materials from the price of the completed sword and sold their broken part for what is left over from that. Until, that is, someone undercut it by 1.5million. What this then does is throw people into a sales person whirlwind and then they irrationally lower their price by 2million. The undercutting moron sees this then they too go into a sales person whirlwind and lower their price by another 1million. At this point it's not even profitable compared to getting someone to craft the sword for you and giving them a asinine tip.

We know people will lower as long as they still gain a profit, but for some items you have to also base it on the amount of time it takes farming the materials or object. A handful of ignorant people don't mind making what would be poverty level per hour in FFXIV, it seems. It's a fail system and relies too much on player intelligence. Something that is statistically not in the majority's favor anyway, in or out of the game's world.

I like it being undercut. I think it's absolutely stupid when something like the Jaded Crook sells for half a million gil. Common items should never be over 10k.

When everyone else is a crafter what do you expect?

Well said Bruce, and put a lot more eloquently than I could have. D:
There is no debate that people will undercut you, but it is THAT kind of undercutting that is asinine and troublesome.

@Jinrya: Jade Crook requires high rank crafting with 2 sub crafts, the creation of Nephrite from Jade which was, until now I guess, a rarer drop by only one type of mob. If I were that crafter I don't think I'd want to bother with leveling my craft knowing that I could make a bigger profit making wood chips all day. When you pay for an item you pay for more than just how common it is, but also by how much time went into making it.

Like Bruce said, prices would logically be dictated by the cost of mats, and time, not by how fast you can sell and just because. \:

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

Two very frustrating instances I've had were selling Pearl Rings and two Broken Aeolian Scimitars. The pearl rings I was putting up for 50k a ring and was the only seller. I'd sell at least two a day and then I started to get competition against one person. Not only did this person undercut, they lowered the price by 60%. Now, I ask you, if you have only one other person as your competition, how is it smart to immediately go to your floor price? If it were blind pricing with just a history, people tend to not do this. At least, not as often as in FFXIV.

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Because he is most likely not looking for a profit or a lot of gil, he most likely just wants to get rid of the item. I do this all the time with gear, I'll throw it up for stupidly low amount just to get rid of it, its better than NPCing

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

You'd think most people are smart enough to understand basic game economics, but it does seem to be challenging to some people. . .

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Those are not the only ways to judge value and gil equivalent worth of an item, you know.

From the other perspective, that reads as "I can't rip people off for as much as I used to" = D

Hardly. In any case I do NPC or toss armour I can't use or don't want any more knowing that in order to sell it I'd have to slash the price 60%

My friend is an armoursmith and is having problems selling enough of her crafted gear to turn a profit to continue crafting. This is in part due to how oversaturated this market is with gear. Especially since all these new NM's drop them by the bucket load. There's no need for crafters anymore it seems, everything drops ready made. I know there was a thread posted about this earlier but crafters who take crafting seriously are being marginalised by all these drops.

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Originally Posted by viion

Because he is most likely not looking for a profit or a lot of gil, he most likely just wants to get rid of the item. I do this all the time with gear, I'll throw it up for stupidly low amount just to get rid of it, its better than NPCing

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Not that it's a huge surprise to anyone, but you are part of the problem then and you give an instance to why the system doesn't work. There is no reason why the pricing should be thrown off because some peon is too lazy to actually price it reasonably under the last seller. Or actually, at a price that not only makes sense due to the cost of materials and the time farming them if they include something more rare compared to most crafts.

/eye roll.

I make a lot of profit from Arm, not as much as Alch but a decent amount because my build costs are near 0, I farm everything I need and I also have Arm for any glues and such and my brother does all blacksmith stuff and I also have a LW/Weaver friend if need be who will do things for free (as I break clusters for free).

This type of collaboration gets my build costs to near nothing and I reap the total profits, anyone who's helped me get free shards so its win win haha. thus I can afford to undercut, (i wouldnt 60% on stuff i craft though).

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

Not that it's a huge surprise to anyone, but you are part of the problem then

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I dont see how im part of the problem because I do not see what the problem is. I'm allowed to sell anything I want at any price I want, why should I not be allowed to do that? If you're sad someone is undercutting you, just leave the item there and hopefully it will sell when the under cutters has sold because like I said the buyer is not going to pay more when there is the same thing for less.

There is also the issue of what you see fit price for an item is not what another will see. You might find an item tough to get and sell it high due to that but another guy could of gotten it very easily or even given to them, and will sell it low.

I make lots of money, and I don't even craft.

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Originally Posted by viion

I dont see how im part of the problem because I do not see what the problem is. I'm allowed to sell anything I want at any price I want, why should I not be allowed to do that? If you're sad someone is undercutting you, just leave the item there and hopefully it will sell when the under cutters has sold because like I said the buyer is not going to pay more when there is the same thing for less.

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That is the ignorant excuse I was expecting. It's like when people try to justify their extremely ignorant comments by saying they have the freedom of speech. While this is true, it doesn't mean they're not a despicable person. So, while it is true you have the freedom to sell anything your tiny brain can gauge as being a respectable price, it certainly doesn't excuse you from being a lazy and annoying sales person.

if the undercutting is so intolerable then why not purchase the undercut items and then sell them at your inflated rates. You will have a temporary monopoly on the market. Businesses do this all the time when they cannot compete with a smaller company, its easier to buy them out if you are unwilling to have a price war.

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Originally Posted by Jieddo

if the undercutting is so intolerable then why not purchase the undercut items and then sell them at your inflated rates. You will have a temporary monopoly on the market. Businesses do this all the time when they cannot compete with a smaller company, its easier to buy them out if you are unwilling to have a price war.

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This is extremely risky. I know a linkshell that attempted to do this and it completely back fired. Luckily, it was a linkshell deserved it, but that is beside the point.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

This is extremely risky. I know a linkshell that attempted to do this and it completely back fired. Luckily, it was a linkshell deserved it, but that is beside the point.

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Newsflash: that's the market telling you that the item was overpriced to begin with.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

That is the ignorant excuse I was expecting. It's like when people try to justify their extremely ignorant comments by saying they have the freedom of speech. While this is true, it doesn't mean they're not a despicable person. So, while it is true you have the freedom to sell anything your tiny brain can gauge as being a respectable price, it certainly doesn't excuse you from being a lazy and annoying sales person.

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Sounds ignorant.

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Originally Posted by viion

Because he is most likely not looking for a profit or a lot of gil, he most likely just wants to get rid of the item. I do this all the time with gear, I'll throw it up for stupidly low amount just to get rid of it, its better than NPCing

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If that's the case they may as well just sell it to an NPC vendor. People don't care imo. Not everyone cares because a video game at the end of the day is a video game and time value doesn't mean squat to some people which makes sense. IMO that is why the TC's point about not listing all prices is a good one.

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Originally Posted by Leeloo

Sounds ignorant.

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lol

/10characters

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Originally Posted by Mack

If that's the case they may as well just sell it to an NPC vendor. People don't care imo. Not everyone cares because a video game at the end of the day is a video game and time value doesn't mean squat to some people which makes sense. IMO that is why the TC's point about not listing all prices is a good one.

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If I get 1k from an NPC but can get 80k from an ward even with a 60% reduction, I'm going to the ward......

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Originally Posted by viion

If I get 1k from an NPC but can get 80k from an ward even with a 60% reduction, I'm going to the ward......

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This

/10characters

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Newsflash: that's the market telling you that the item was overpriced to begin with.

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incorrect, looking at what vion said, he basically said, i can afford to sell items cheap, because i dont consider gathering, or the act of crafting to be work, so its all free. Its impossible to compete with people like him, because in thier mind anything cheaper than npc is not that bad. For a proffesional crafter, or manufacturer, things such as item costs matter. sure, i got a bunch of iron ores from months of leves, that i may not have used yet, but after thats done, i have to either farm or buy the items, If you were actually consistently selling these are real issues, but they are not, when you are simply skilling up, you just want exp, breaking even can be fine for you.

I really dont know if there will ever be a solution to this really, everyone puts different values on thier time. Its not real life where you need a constant source of money, where you dont work for entertainment, but because you have to, and even if you do, you still need to get a premium value or your quality of life suffers.
If your broke in this game, you cant buy new armor, but if you already have armor, being broke really doesnt matter, its not even like we have to buy food in this game.

This funnily, causes both items to be dirt cheap, and items to be retardedly expensive. On one end there is a wealth of money and not that much to spend it on, on the other side there isnt a large desire to maximize profits. The way i see the economy panning out at this rate, is basic items comparitively worthless, and when they have rare items, they will be worth insane amounts of money (if they have any super rare items)

Not every item is over priced. Now you're just over looking people blatantly TELLING you that they're selling at lower prices because they don't want a profit, they don't want it anymore, they're impatient.

A point a friend of mine brought up is just because you don't see bots, doesn't mean boting isn't going on.


The general consensus I'm getting from you all right now is "There's no point in attempting to make a profit from crafting, because everyone crafts and therefore there's no point." Not every 'crafter' crafts every job, not every crafter is a bot, nor do they belong to elitist shells that benefit from each other.

A lot of you admit that the market is flawed, and gil sinks aren't a permanent fix but they would most certainly help if not in the long term, the short term. There are many who have already proven my point that undercutting has nothing to do with the supply or demand, but because they're impatient and want their items sold first, and the fastest.

From the over saturation to the laissez faire attitude, something ought to be done. We all know that the last patch on the MW was not the last, and any discussion into fixing it is brushed off as though "this is reality, that's too bad" is a valid option.


Ahahha, even rarer items, ones which come from NM drops or high level monsters that require large groups to take down, the price may be high at first but as soon as word gets out the prices for them go from 2 mil to 300k in about a day. Were they over priced? Perhaps, but who are you to say they are over priced to begin with? They were rare, hard to get, required a mid level crafter to make, and in low supply. Why not post them high, see where you are in a week, then lower the price to sell. You don't just decide in one day "Well, I've had it. It hasn't sold in the last hour, I'll just cut the price by 75%"

The impatience is a lot of the problem with this game and latest patches and fixes. No one is willing to wait, they want everything now. How is anyone supposed to feel a sense of accomplishment in this game when everything you do is useless.

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Originally Posted by viion

If I get 1k from an NPC but can get 80k from an ward even with a 60% reduction, I'm going to the ward......

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So then you care about return and you shouldn't be selling at a loss which was your argument initially: "Because he is most likely not looking for a profit or a lot of gil".

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Newsflash: that's the market telling you that the item was overpriced to begin with.

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This, this, a thousand times, THIS!

If you are charging a reasonable price and people are undercutting you, that's fine, your stuff will eventually sell.
If it doesn't sell, then you're selling your stuff for too much. The increased supply from sellers means the price *should* go down.

If it's not worth your time to farm for the mats and craft the item because the profit margin is too small, look to making another item that's more useful and/or has higher demand.

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Originally Posted by Physic

incorrect, looking at what vion said, he basically said, i can afford to sell items cheap, because i dont consider gathering, or the act of crafting to be work, so its all free. Its impossible to compete with people like him, because in thier mind anything cheaper than npc is not that bad. For a proffesional crafter, or manufacturer, things such as item costs matter.

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That just goes to show you the value of ranking up a gathering class alongside a crafting class. If you don't want to do gathering, then complain about high materials costs, then that's your problem.

Gatherer invest time into gathering. A crafter who does not gather conversely has a lot of time to spare, relative to the crafter/gatherer player. That means that the crafting-only player should use that time in a more effective manner.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

This, this, a thousand times, THIS!

If you are charging a reasonable price and people are undercutting you, that's fine, your stuff will eventually sell.
If it doesn't sell, then you're selling your stuff for too much. The increased supply from sellers means the price *should* go down.

If it's not worth your time to farm for the mats and craft the item because the profit margin is too small, look to making another item that's more useful and/or has higher demand.

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You are absolutely correct in that the pricing being too high in those sort of instances and you have a point that you could focus yourself towards something more in demand and viable. However, it doesn't solve the problem that people are discussing regarding lazy players and people who undercut too much screwing up the system only to get "rid of items".

If there is a choice in which system to use, when it comes to a price window, the lesser of two evils would really be blind pricing with a buy history. I know that this system does complicate things sometimes as far as allowing RMT to band together and control pricing on some materials and items, but that isn't so much of a market issue as it is a STF issue. Implementing systems to cock block RMT allows more player to player issues to arise. Case in point, Viion and kool in the gang's outlook in shrug of the shoulders pricing.