If you didn't ragequit immediately, that'd be great.
When someone suggests you use flash more
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10-26-2013, 12:06 AMVyserionWhen someone suggests you use flash more
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10-26-2013, 12:23 AMDisrupter
*LOSES MIND*
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10-26-2013, 12:25 AMSeriatIs that before or after the dps pull three packs of mobs cause he "likes to move fast"? /jk btwQuote:
Originally Posted by Vyserion
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10-26-2013, 12:40 AMAvalon_Albrook
I'm leveling conjurer right now and healing dungeons because I love seeing the other side of everything after tanking this whole game. I now see how the complaints over some tanks can get pretty loud. The OP and I are twinsies this morning. I was in Toto-Rak with a gladiator who absolutely refused to hold hate on more than one mob... even if 3 or 4 were around. No one else pulled a single mob. And yet I ended up having to heal myself more than the tank throughout the dungeon because, 30 seconds after his pull, I would heal him once and I'd get swarmed. My requests for the tank to please start using flash often and also to rotate fast/savage throughout the mobs and not just the first one he sees were polite at first, but by the boss, I was screaming at him.
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10-26-2013, 01:35 AMJedimanMOST DPS pull before tanks lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Seriat
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10-26-2013, 01:36 AMSeriatAs a PLD, trust me .. I know ;pQuote:
Originally Posted by Jediman
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10-26-2013, 01:46 AMCyanDvai
A good PLD uses Flash, Halone combo, and tab targets and Marks his mob (and maybe Scorn for fun).
A good DPS focus target on marks, doesn't attack the mob until tank has threat, doesn't use his heavy hitting skills back to back right after the pull, and only AOE's once the good tank has agro enough on the group.
A good Healer doesn't regen as the tank is pulling or over heal and spam Medica 2.
But you don't always get good players. Ran into a Whm in Amdapor Keep that thought Regen was hot shit and spammed it the entire run, even as the last mob of a group dies he would cast regen on me.... so annoying.
Bad players are a dime a dozen, and most of the time trying to help them is useless because they think they're hot shit. -
10-26-2013, 01:47 AMKenji1134
I wanna throw some math out there.
Now I am unsure of the dynamic scaling of Flash vs RoH with respect to weapon damage, str, etc... but I can say this much. Based on testing conducted at lvl 50, with Shield Oath, on the garlean mobs in the camps NE of Wineport using 2 paladins with nearly identical gear and stats, same relic+1 on both...
With "full" DL, 3 I90 pieces, and a relic+1 sword+shield, it take between 9 and 10 Flashes to outaggro 2 full RoH combos. In other words, I did 2 full RoH combos, and my partner Flashed 9 times, I still had a sliver of aggro. 10th Flash, he has aggro, and I am missing a sliver, so about 9.5-9.6 Flashes = 2 Fast-Savage=RoH combos. (In Shield Oath)
Now if we say that the "hate potency" of the RoH combo is 150+200*3+260*5=2050, then 2 RoH combos is 4100 hate potency, which is roughly equal to 9.6 Flashes, so Flash has a hate potency of ~427.
To put it in perspective, in terms of "hate potency"
Fast Blade (alone or in a combo) = 150
Savage Blade (alone) = 300
Shield Lob = 360
*Flash = 427 (on all nearby mobs)*
RoH (alone) = 500
Savage Blade (in combo) = 600
RoH (in combo) = 1300
So on 2 mobs, you can spend 6 GCDs doing 2 full RoH combos on each mob for 2050 hate potency on both mobs, or Flash 6 times for ~2562 hate potency on both mobs... or 3 mobs, 5, 200... etc.
TDLR: Flash MOAR -
10-26-2013, 01:48 AMKitruI've seen this same behavior at *50* in DF. There are so many tanks out there who have no idea how to tank that it just gets frustrating. I lay most of the blame at the FATEs being the fastest way to level, mainly because FATEs get nowhere *close* to teaching you how to play your class effectively. Honestly, it's not even like a PLD has to use Flash more than 1-2 times at the start of the fight (and only if they're not 50 and can use CoS as their initial AoE generation before starting to target swap). I really wish that the devs would increase the xp from running dungeons because those actually teach people how to play properly, rather than just running around like chickens with their heads cut off, collecting as much xp as everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon_Albrook
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10-26-2013, 01:51 AMDisrupter
Technically, good DPS instinctually know the assist target without marks. Its a thing.
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10-26-2013, 01:52 AMSeriatI assume most ppl I get in DF are pants-on-head type ppl and mark all mobs to avoid confusion. If, however, you can't count as high as five; well that's your/their problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disrupter
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10-26-2013, 01:53 AMCyanDvai
@Kenji1134
I can believe that between 2 paladins, RoH combo is our primary threat builder and flash only has enough threat to maintain adds on us only if the rest of the group knows how to manage their hate.
With a group of 3-4 mobs I can easily keep them all on me by just using RoH on primary target and tossing in a flash after my combo only if healer and dps can manage their threat and are on target. I only have to tab target on a group is healer is using big heals or casting Holy and if dps is off my marks. -
10-26-2013, 01:53 AMDarkkos
I hope this happened is a low level dongeon..
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10-26-2013, 01:54 AMKitruI once had a DPS that thought that the letters next to NPCs names were the tank marking rather than the server marking them as distinct combat entities for you. He accused me of using multiple marks just to confuse him because, you know, the giant (1) above a target's head was just too hard to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriat
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10-26-2013, 01:56 AMCyanDvaiAssist is pointless with a PLD since most PLD's tab targets on groups to maintain threat, so this is a moot point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disrupter
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10-26-2013, 01:56 AMDisrupterIts not really so much pants on head as uncertainty as to what the other folks are doing. I'm a real traditional player in MMOs, meaning I look to melee dps to choose targets to kill. I tank them all regardless or allow CC. Back on topic though, this is where Flash is highly valuable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriat
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10-26-2013, 01:56 AMSeriatLmfao, I swear we had the same DPS before they changed the Duty Servers set up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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10-26-2013, 02:03 AMHiirNoivlFlash works only ifQuote:
Originally Posted by Vyserion
A) There's not two DoTs on the mobs
B) Regen was put on the tank AFTER the first flash
C) People aren't DPSing the wrong mob.
If any of those are true, No amount of flash will save you.
Regen is banned for the first minutes of a dungeon until I can confirm the WHM is not an idiot with it. Regen icon? Right click.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyanDvai
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10-26-2013, 02:14 AMCyanDvaiOh, ya, I check that shit before pulls. It's just annoying when the WHM casts it during the last mob of a group or as I'm running to pull the next mob... which said WHM also did on several occasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
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10-26-2013, 02:16 AMTanayaIt'd be amazing if tanks realized this more.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyanDvai
Edit: And I've had Regen spammerers myself. Even had one who spammed Regen AND Medica II if he ever got hit by a red zone. -
10-26-2013, 02:19 AMJedimanThis is what I do I just tank poorly when that happens till they get killed gona make youtube clip of it later stage lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriat
also most DPS can't follow Signs when it comes to garuda hard mode at some point i think they do that just to piss you off.
Come to my server and i will help you out if you need help getting your weapons.
here is the guide on youtube :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYpVUpS78KI -
10-26-2013, 02:36 AMSeriatIf I get a DPS that wants to pull, I'll let them know if they keep doing they can tank. They usually learn to back off by third mob pack. (if the mage hasn't ragequit by then anyways)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediman
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10-26-2013, 02:43 AMGinTamaMarking still better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disrupter
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10-26-2013, 03:27 AMZazakuraoh my oh my oh my, little errors there unless your aggro or aggro spreading really sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
first off flash as initial aggro builder is primary skill, my personal guide to any tank average still on build gear: Use Flash as many times as there is mobs before any other GC that is like bread and butter and sure beats dot users and early regen is easy enough if you remember to start RoH combos right after to maintain primary targets dps and spreading roh combo to 1+2 on other and 3 on other to maintain dot aggro, it just holds the aggro...now different story comes when two high dmg dps come and decide have contest between each other by nuking different targets... -
10-26-2013, 03:39 AMBillySlippyfistsYour joke about this, but last night i had a monk do this. Also the blm in the group wouldnt target the mob i was targetting. After a few mins of this i decided to let them hold aggro to teach em a lesson lol they told me i was a bad tank and i just responded ok later guys and wuit the group. people are just silly sometimesQuote:
Originally Posted by Seriat
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10-26-2013, 05:14 AMMakedaThat's the LAST thing I want DPS doing when I tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disrupter
I like to cycle around and make sure I'm using some threat builders here and there. Especially once I have initial threat down. It will use tabbing through the stack for all manner of purposes: enmity, toss out a dot, break a CC to start in on the next mob, whatever... Quite often, just to ensure there is enough enmity on them that when it comes time to switch, the DPS can open big.
Flash and Overpower? Those are just enough to overtake the healer's enmity. Even if I spam them, they're not going to give much more than that, and I'll be losing out on other aspects of my combos.
If you follow me through all that, I have to do even more of it, to keep up with your enmity on the things I'm just light touching. Stay on my mark, and let me do my job of making sure I keep up enough enmity there to be ahead of your DPS. If you stay on the mark, I can keep my enmity above you there, and prep the next set of focus targets at the same time so that when we switch - you don't have to cycle it down one bit.
The only time I expect DPS to be 'all over the place' or following me is when I goof up and fail to mark... then its on me to mark quickly and get things back under control - for which I have the marks all keybound to control - number, right similar to my attacks which are just number or shift-number. -
10-28-2013, 10:20 PMVyserionThis isn't really just for you, but for context:Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
The dungeon was Cutter's Cry and I'm on my Scholar (I swapped GCs and needed to clear it to advance rank), and I am letting Selene heal. Selene is the one without the aoe regen, so nope, no regening. What ends up happening is the Paladin tank doesn't use flash when he pulls and just lets things wail on my poor faerie (and then me when I heal her because sustain alone isn't working) and I suggest he uses flash on groups where there are three or more enemies. So, you know. He immediately ragequits.
Cutter's Cry has like a 2 hour queue time because no one runs it ever. I wound up just swapping to my then-level <30 paladin, leveling it, and then tanking it myself because that was faster. -
10-28-2013, 10:28 PMHiirNoivlUm.. you agreed with me and still acted like you are better than me... what the heck is wrong with people?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zazakura
That sucks that you had to deal with that. :( But kudos to you for just tanking it yourself. though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyserion
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10-29-2013, 03:47 AMsaber_altersince i have held hate on regen happy relic white mages with a garuda weapon....i find your argument invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
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10-29-2013, 11:58 PMTyrialNot sure why you'd list Scorn as a just "for fun" skill when it's an excellent aggro tool. If you're not using it every time the CD is up you're doing something wrong, especially since it's not on the GCD, same with Spirits unless you have to save it for a fight mechanic (Chimera or ADS).Quote:
Originally Posted by CyanDvai
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10-30-2013, 12:07 AMHiirNoivlI also hold hate on regen happy relic WHMs... but they don't have regen on me before the first flash.Quote:
Originally Posted by saber_alter
Let your regen happy relic WHMs put regen on before you flash and see how much MP you have after. :) -
10-30-2013, 12:35 AMCyanDvaiScorn has no enmity built into it. It's just a dot that enables bleed, all it does is give a little bit of enmity through damage but you can easily hold aggro with out Scorn (I've done it several times). It's a skill to use because it's there. It would be nice if SE added an Enmity stat to Scorn, then it will actually become useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrial
I never touch Spirit unless I need to use it, it does little to your threat generation because it does not have any enmity built into so the only enmity you'll get from it is from the damage which is minimal since you're taking a 20% hit on your damage anyways from Shield Oath. -
10-30-2013, 01:05 AMKitruCoS hits for 100 potency right off the bat and a further 150 over the next 10 seconds. It might not be high enmity, but it's nowhere near a "little bit" especially when you recognize that it's off GCD. Unless there are more than 3 targets, I never have to use Flash on my PLD because I can just use CoS to provide the necessary threat cushion on secondary targets while I'm establishing a large enough threat cushion that I can start target swapping safely. The only runs where I actually have to use Flash are WP speed runs where there are simply too many enemies in each pull to target swap.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyanDvai
Also, the damage from CoS isn't "minimal". It's ~7.5% of your total DPS, with Spirits Within contributing another ~7.5%.
CoS is far from a "just for fun" or "just because it's there" skill. It's friggin' *amazing*. It hits as harder than your ST attacks while being off the GCD, free, and AoE. That's a little nuts, honestly. -
10-30-2013, 01:40 AMCyanDvai
I use it on 3 or more mobs when I pull, I just never viewed it as "essential" to tanking.
I usually run into the middle of a pack, flash, scorn, RoH combo primary target, flash, tab target and I'll use scorn again if I remember too.
I use Flash more than Scorn and will toss a Flash between each RoH combo to hold groups.
I usually never hit Spirits unless there's something I need to silence. Only occasionally will I use it in a rotation on boss, though I usually use Scorn when ever it's up on a boss for the dot effect. -
10-30-2013, 01:50 AMLeiron
If you dont need to silence the boss, you might as well pop SW whenever its off cooldown for the extra bit of damage.
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10-30-2013, 07:30 AMTyrialIt's definitely not needed to hold aggro, but that'd be like saying: "Gee...I've got to move these 5 large stones from next to this tree and deposit them over by the shed." Then you look around, see the wheelbarrow you just brought over with you from said shed and say "Screw it, I'll just carry them, I don't need the wheelbarrow to do this."Quote:
Originally Posted by CyanDvai
Bit of a weird analogy, sure, but you get the point.
Our job as a tank is to maximize our performance. We can still pull decent damage numbers while in shield oath, we've got mitigation tools to allow us to not even use shield oath for some content. There's no excuse for not maximizing your potential and making the most out of what you have, even if it's "just a little bit of damage". Kitru summed it up very well. -
10-30-2013, 10:21 AMRochetm
I am so awesome I don't use off GCD abilities that do great damage and cost no TP. While am at it I don't use defensive tank cooldowns because the healer will probably be just fine healing me.
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10-30-2013, 03:23 PMUliq
Flash scales like warrior healing. It's not gonna do anything at 50 while dealing damage scales with level+armor. Enmity damaging moves = more hate then flash. Flash is a encounter starter, or a sleeping mob holder, that's it. (Yes said by a level 44. Bite me)
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10-30-2013, 03:35 PMGrailer
123 Flash 12 switch to next target 3 Flash Switch back to main 12 switch to 3rd target 3 Flash . If first target nearly dead switch to target 2 .. 12 switch 3 .. switch 12... switch 3 .
Gets harder with 4 mobs .
Notice Im only really using flash to hold agro on all mobs at once but it's not enough to really hold agro -
10-31-2013, 12:24 AMCyanDvaiWhich is exactly what I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grailer
Some people like to be d!cks like Rochetm with his comment, but oh well.
I don't dig into the numbers of skills and abilities, for those that do great, I'll use what ever info you have and adjust accordingly, I just don't enjoy all the theory crafting data mining.
My comments about Scorn is I just didn't see it as an integral part of maintaining threat, we tank 49 levels with out it just fine. I use scorn in my rotations regularly in dungeons, but oh well, let people say what they will.