A Call For Originality

I'm just writing this to gage how people really feel about some of the changes that are being made specifically in regards to physical levels and class changes. I'm all for making some modifications to how stats work and adding some more class uniqueness however completely changing the system to remove physical levels and move towards standard FF classes such as Black Mage, Dragoon etc. seems to be moving backwards in making a new and exciting game. These are some things that make FFXIV a unique game and not just another FFXI. I'm just hoping that SE still wants to maintain some of their originality and isn't completely caving into the whims of fans (even if it's a lot of them).

Name a change, and I can splice Final Fantasy XIV's Title into it. =)

This is a solid point and I'm inclined to want them to make something new and exciting that isn't the usual rote.

The problem is that what the fans want might be cloaked in nostalgia and a desire to return to familiar systems, but what it really is is a desire to move to a system that works well and is enjoyable to play. If SE had some brilliant idea that was unlike anything seen before and was actually good, people would be on board. The trouble is sometimes being original for the sake of originality is a bad idea if you don't get lucky and hit off on some brilliant new way of doing things, it's a disaster. I think Yoshi-P actually mentioned something to that affect in a previous Letter from the Producer. If you don't get it right it comes off as complicated, random and not nearly as good as anything that came before it.

So if the fan base just wants them to fall back on 'tried and true' that, to me, is a clear indication that they tried the high road of originality and novelty and didn't quite hit the mark. Not every new idea is a gem.

I won't be too sad if they fall back on some fundamentals that worked right and had no need to be changed (see: something as basic as a mail system) and then went forward from there developing new and exciting systems over time. Starting from the unknown and moving further into the unknown doesn't always work, but starting from the known and branching out into the unknown, at the very least, gives you a sensible anchor and core of satisfactory content that people won't take too much issue with.

More than anything, I would like the devs to stick to their guns and deliver a unique game experience. Naturally there should be recurring themes(such as transport methods like chocobos, airships) and characters(always gotta have a Cid) with FFXIV and the rest of the series as well as recurring ideas and concepts that are inherent in MMOs, but this is an entry in a series that has thrived off differences. No two Final Fantasy games are ever totally alike.

Regardless of whether or not the shift in the dev team was warranted, I'm glad that Tanaka stepped down as head of the project, not because I was particularly dissatisfied with his work as much as I feel that "new blood" and change have always been beneficial to the series as a whole. FFVI was a big departure from the norm, as was VII, X, and XII. Right now however I'm very much concerned about FFXIV losing that potential to be a really unique thing under the weight of all the "bring back FFXI" feedback.

I'm somewhat split on whether or not Yoshi has a real vision or whether he's going to pander to a certain subset. I guess only time will tell, but I for one don't want to see a game I'm currently enjoying in a series I love be tarnished.

Just for clarification, I have nothing against them trying for something original, I'm just saying its only natural for games to tweak assets and features from other games in order to do so. I don't want a FFXI-2, I want a new FF Online game.

@Malakhim

See it like this: they have FFXI, a now old game, that made them lots of money and had lots of player enjoying it. Most of the current players are FFXI players. The current game is being disliked.

It is an obvious choice to make it more familiar to FFXI players to quickly gather a solid player base.

What i believe is that it is necessary to get back the immersive atmosphere and uniqueness of FFXI, surely not to regress the current engine and gameplay to a 10 years old one.

I know there is a lot of discussion about originality . . but honestly I don't think you need to 'reinvent the wheel' to be original. It IS possible to take foundational ideas from things that /work/ and build upon a solid base to create something wholly new and exciting. I think FFXIV tried to change to much and created an unstable foundation that just can't be built upon. There are aspects of FFXI that worked well, like the basic interface, mail systems, search functions, even job classes. It would make sense to use these aspects and build something new and exciting. :/

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Originally Posted by Lomelindi

I know there is a lot of discussion about originality . . but honestly I don't think you need to 'reinvent the wheel' to be original. It IS possible to take foundational ideas from things that /work/ and build upon a solid base to create something wholly new and exciting. I think FFXIV tried to change to much and created an unstable foundation that just can't be built upon. There are aspects of FFXI that worked well, like the basic interface, mail systems, search functions, even job classes. It would make sense to use these aspects and build something new and exciting. :/

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I second this. My thoughts exactly.

Hmm, I'm all for originality, but I don't think that I would be upset if they reverted to a similar system from XI. But then again...I never played XI, lol.

They can try something new and exciting... but what they have now isn't that. Don't get me wrong, i love FF games, but in some aspect you should stick with the classic. You are bringing the same name, so people are going to expect some of the elements to be the same. If they wanted to go this whole classless bastardized adventurer route... they should of called it something other than a final fantasy.

Market wards... great idea. However since they released a beta game, people are sick of them and demand an AH (and hopefully an actually auction house and not the 11 system). Even making them searchable and basically turning them into an AH... its just to late.

Armory system... horrible idea. It takes away classes and gives you this melting pot of abilities. It limits additional "classes" down the road as its weapon based.. it allows you to wear any gear you want even if its not for your class or level.

Camps and porting around... sorta mixed. I like the idea of trying to get people out into different areas but they just seem crowded and annoying most of the time. And warping to crystals is a great idea to save time, but it seems to take away a bit of the game. What was wrong with having whm's port people with spells?

In my opinion they sort of took the road that the people covered in tattoos, gauged out earring, and underskin implants take to be "different"... they went too far with it and failed. Sure a few people will love the idea... but society as a whole is laughing.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Just for clarification, I have nothing against them trying for something original, I'm just saying its only natural for games to tweak assets and features from other games in order to do so. I don't want a FFXI-2, I want a new FF Online game.

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Kallera this raises an interesting topic of underlying assumptions or mistaken assumptions. I think it is often the case that when anyone references WoW or FFXI there seems to be this automatic hostility in some that manifests as "I don't want a WoW clone!" or "Oh you just want FFXI-2 that's stupid".

You're view is, I think, the real general opinion of most. I don't think many are really saying they want the old games back or for this one to be a carbon copy of other games, they're just using a frame of reference that is familiar to them to make an argument for systems and content that works. Invoking the names of WoW or FFXI to make a point does not logically or automatically lead to the conclusion that they want this game to be a copy of those games.

I read this after the fact but reference this where Blitz0309 has to insert a phrase to cover himself against that automatically hostile response:

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Originally Posted by Blitz0309

Market wards... great idea. However since they released a beta game, people are sick of them and demand an AH (and hopefully an actually auction house and not the 11 system). Even making them searchable and basically turning them into an AH... its just to late.

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Hopefully these forums are a step in the right direction of not needing to cover yourself against what should be self evident as has been the case across many 'fan forums'.

I wasn't saying that they shouldn't use some stuff that is tried and true but they seem to be completely backing down from the armory system which is the one really cool thing I like about this game. I'm definitely not saying they shouldn't have some of the really good aspects from FFXI like better LS management, mail systems etc however I'm worried that instead of making some changes to the current system to make it work a lot better they are listening to fans *too* much and are just trying to completely rework it to be more like FFXI because to fans that *is* what works to them.

I agree with Lomelindi. There are points in which FFXIV can excell however, in its current state, it needs some help. Where better to derive ideas from FFXI? I believe FFXI had some of the most dedicated followers in all of modern MMOs, I truly don't believe that one can go wrong from taking from that game and adapting.

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Originally Posted by Blitz0309

They can try something new and exciting... but what they have now isn't that. Don't get me wrong, i love FF games, but in some aspect you should stick with the classic. You are bringing the same name, so people are going to expect some of the elements to be the same. If they wanted to go this whole classless bastardized adventurer route... they should of called it something other than a final fantasy.

Market wards... great idea. However since they released a beta game, people are sick of them and demand an AH (and hopefully an actually auction house and not the 11 system). Even making them searchable and basically turning them into an AH... its just to late.

Armory system... horrible idea. It takes away classes and gives you this melting pot of abilities. It limits additional "classes" down the road as its weapon based.. it allows you to wear any gear you want even if its not for your class or level.

Camps and porting around... sorta mixed. I like the idea of trying to get people out into different areas but they just seem crowded and annoying most of the time. And warping to crystals is a great idea to save time, but it seems to take away a bit of the game. What was wrong with having whm's port people with spells?

In my opinion they sort of took the road that the people covered in tattoos, gauged out earring, and underskin implants take to be "different"... they went too far with it and failed. Sure a few people will love the idea... but society as a whole is laughing.

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Completely backwards.

Market Wards... terrible idea. AH works, just use a better one than FFXI.
Armory system... great idea. At least the "change jobs as needed" aspect. Gives a great excuse for not swapping gear in combat like in FFXI, so no crazy gear set management, but provides much more flexibility to be on what job is needed.
Camps and porting around... porting is fantastic for getting around, removes reliance on any particular job for travel, and cuts out a lot of mindless running around.

And I don't think "society as a whole" cares about MMOs. The biggest criticism of most new games is that they're just clones or tweaks on WoW. FFXIV is definitively not that. And with about an extra year of development (Tanaka never should have rushed to beat Cataclysm to market) it would've been sufficiently compelling on launch.

Then again, Yoshi-P is a much better choice for an MMO director than Tanaka, so maybe it's for the best.

The biggest problems are in the abysmal game engine that is Crystal Tools (looks gorgeous, but implemented poorly and far too demanding on GPU hardware), the lack of content, and the spammy battle system. Two of the three can be fixed easily. Crystal Tools, we're stuck with.

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Originally Posted by Amas

The biggest problems are in the abysmal game engine that is Crystal Tools (looks gorgeous, but implemented poorly and far too demanding on GPU hardware), the lack of content, and the spammy battle system. Two of the three can be fixed easily. Crystal Tools, we're stuck with.

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The Crystal Tools problem is a massive failure all on its own. The game demands more than the majority of average computers can throw at it... It's completely absurd. There are plenty of other games on the market that look as good and don't choke a computer half as bad. Oh well Amas you are very likely right that we're totally stuck with that problem.

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Originally Posted by Kirith

What i believe is that it is necessary to get back the immersive atmosphere and uniqueness of FFXI.

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And that's what they're going to be doing with FFXIV. While the argument is shaky at best, that doesn't make it any less true that Final Fantasy XI had a full 9 years of growth at this point. FFXIV has had 6 months. While it can be argued that in this day and age, it's hardly a good idea to release a game that's as barebones as FFXI was when it released(speaking about before it was released stateside a full year and an expansion after the Japanese release, which didn't even have chocobos or arrow stacking above 12), I'm willing to bet that once FFXIV is actually "finished", and there are plenty of rough edges in the game to indicate that this is the case, it'll probably surpass what a lot of people think of it now.

Naturally there are things in FFXI and other MMOs that work, but this is Final Fantasy we're talking about here. There are always going to be cosmetic and system changes with each iteration.

I'm really hoping they remove the physical level system. It's not a matter of originality and being unique from other games. It's a matter of me wanting to play a mage job without having to screw up my stats I have in place for 50 Pugilist.

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Originally Posted by pepesylvia

I'm really hoping they remove the physical level system. It's not a matter of originality and being unique from other games. It's a matter of me wanting to play a mage job without having to screw up my stats I have in place for 50 Pugilist.

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The point is they should fix the current system so it works better when switching classes, not just scrap the whole thing because of one easily solvable problem.

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Originally Posted by edgar131

The point is they should fix the current system so it works better when switching classes, not just scrap the whole thing because of one easily solvable problem.

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This has been the crux of my argument for awhile.

There are some systems in the game that we could probably do without. I think the Market Wards system have run their course and don't really see anything they could do to make it work as effectively as people want, and I was a big proponent of the system if it were made viable.

There are also a lot of systems in place, such as the stat issue you brought up, that really just needs to be balanced and fixed before we can simply just discard it.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

And that's what they're going to be doing with FFXIV. While the argument is shaky at best, that doesn't make it any less true that Final Fantasy XI had a full 9 years of growth at this point. FFXIV has had 6 months. While it can be argued that in this day and age, it's hardly a good idea to release a game that's as barebones as FFXI was when it released(speaking about before it was released stateside a full year and an expansion after the Japanese release, which didn't even have chocobos or arrow stacking above 12), I'm willing to bet that once FFXIV is actually "finished", and there are plenty of rough edges in the game to indicate that this is the case, it'll probably surpass what a lot of people think of it now.

Naturally there are things in FFXI and other MMOs that work, but this is Final Fantasy we're talking about here. There are always going to be cosmetic and system changes with each iteration.

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I want to believe that, yet the whole artistic direction is different. FFXIV tries to follow a more western style, unlike the peculiar classic FF atmosphere of FFXI. Perhaps, as you say, it just lacks in development time, but i'm pretty sure that was it not for overwhelming fan demand for a "more FFXI-like" style, they would have went with an even stronger "European Middle Ages" atmosphere.

I'm not sure *this* iteration is doing it in the right way. Final Fantasy should stay true to itself.

I dont mind them adding in classes such as the FFXI ones, but I surely do not want them to remove the current ones or future ones (musketeer, Archanist).

Also I really hope they do not do away with physical levels and instead just make it easier to reallocate points and add in templates for different builds, that seems like much less work and everyone wins in that situation.

i like the current namings.

but we all knows how hard being different has hit this company lol,
for once i will side with the fanboys as long as it brings alot of players in.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

i like the current namings.

but we all knows how hard being different has hit this company lol,
for once i will side with the fanboys as long as it brings alot of players in.

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Honestly I dont think being different is what caused XIVs lack of success. IMO it was a result of the game being released to early. If this game released with dungeons, raids, companies, Chocos, airships, housing as well as all the skills that classes where supposed to have then I believe this game would have been a huge success and still growing even bigger.

There are so many people out there looking for something new and different. XIV could have been it hell it still can be its just always going to be an uphill battle because of the bad release.

If we had the above then all the other stuff wrong, like class uniqueness, bugs, market wards, etc. would be small issues that could have a lot of Dev focus on them. Right now SE has a ton of stuff on their plate because so little was there on release.

I agree, hence the reason I made the Post "If its not broken, DONT FIX IT" check it out. I am outraged that innovation is being replaced with peoples crying and moaning. PHYSICAL LEVEL AND ARMORY SYSTEM STAYS! We should start a pettition.

*tosses in two cents*

You don't know if something will work until you try.

SE flopped in many areas....but FF14 is a great base for an incredible game.

For the heck of it, I'll rant a bit....

Teleport system
-This greatly speeds up organization for people getting somewhere. Personally, I hated trying to grind or get people together in FFXI and having to wait FOREVER because some yahoo didn't get a telepoint active or there's no WHM wherever they are.
-Personally, I'd like to see a way to SEARCH for people, invite them, then teleport to them if you're in the party. The current search thing is screwy. FFXI's search function was simple. /sea all whm 70-72 Simplicity and perfection.

Quests and side quests
-Kudos for making it easy to find that NPC and area you have to go for the goal. Sure, for some it takes a bit of fun and realism out....but face it, there's a ton of sites out there that list what to do and where to go and this keeps it in-game w/o having to surf for the answers and destinations.
-COUNTERPOINT There's not enough quests to keep players happy (I know it's still kind of in a test phase). The rewards are also kind of.....too little too late. Getting a level 10 robe would have been nice a loooong time ago, not so much now. Maybe throw in bonus EXP/SP if you do the quest at a certain level range....or add the ability to restrict your level to one where the quest would be a challenge. Right now, I'm doing quests just because I can....out of boredom for an item I'll probably NPC after earning. How about adding some Key Item rewards? Like some lucky trinket that's just in your Key Item box, not taking up space, just a little boost in some small way?

Armory System
-It's nice to have my own character with abilities I've earned to create a character that can do whatever I want.
-COUNTERPOINT This system goes WAY too far with this though. There's practically no uniqueness to any class aside from the weapon you're using and some HP/MP stuff. Yay, I can dress my mage up in heavy plate armor....Why? Who knows?
Imo--Make a lot of the abilities classes unlock specific to that class. Keep the Abilites/Traits that you unlock with Guild Points open to all jobs. That way, there's some crossover that you have earned....but the classes keep most of the uniqueness. (And while they're at it....how about adding more things to get with Guild points? Gear for that class that's unique maybe? Or maybe some abilities that don't borderline on the silly and retarded? Overkill in choices would be great even!)

Battle system
-This will be very hard to fix....parts are fine, parts are broken.
-I'd love an auto-attack option. How hard would it be to set that to the 1st eaction action? Choose which you want (stab vs. slash, etc.) and your character will do that on the mob whenever possible (maybe having to hit it once at the start to prevent auto-attacking the wrong mob). Oh, and make it so it doesn't take stamina. If only the special moves used stamina the flow would be more.....dynamic. Sure, it'd take more stamina to do things....but hey, we're adventurers! Slashing a sword is supposed to be easy! Spinning and slashing takes more effort, it makes sense!

-Auto-shield maybe? >.> Just restrict damage a bit perhaps? Kind of like Defender, but more class/wep specific.

-Battle regiments....Great idea, very poorly executed. They're easy to screw up, mistime, and tricky to put into action. The SkillChain system in FFXI was rarely used beyond a few levels when Freeze was awesome and some end-game battles. Sure, it was extra damage....but waiting for your teammates to get TP sometimes was aggravating and wasteful.
With everyone able to use pretty much any WS ability now....it gets complicated and fairly silly.
-Maybe try this;
Instead of focusing on the Abilities people are using, focus more on the timing. Right now, some WSs focus on a particular body part of the enemy to create an effect. Maybe take this a step further and just have everyone with a same-area-hitting-attack go at once?
For example; Someone counts down with a macro, 3,2,1 GO Head Attacks! Three people with Head-Aimed WSs nail the mob at the same time compounding damage and having some sort of effect on the mob. Simple, and easy! (of course, WSs would need to use a LOT more stamina...can't have people just spamming that. With auto-attack, this could be nifty!)

SE, props for trying something new and creative....and even more props to admit that some isn't working. Thanks for listening to us. Let's make this the best MMO out there! :D


You know....I think I'll make this a thread >.> lol

Originality? You saw how that worked on release.

FFXI-2 Please.

The MMORPG market has been rather stagnant since the release of wow, and even before. So yeah, originality is pretty much needed.

I, for one, welcomed and continue to welcome most of the original ideas in the game, especially those related to character flexibility.

People just need to look at new games with an open mind. Final Fantasy XIV is, on many aspects, a perfect example on the lack of ability for many people to do just that.

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Originally Posted by Visch

Originality? You saw how that worked on release.

FFXI-2 Please.

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What didn't work on release is an incomplete and unfinished game. It has very little to do with originality.