Why the lack of courage?

I've noticed over the course of three or four days a disturbing trend; after one wipe on a HM boss via Duty Finder people chicken out and leave. Mind you most of the HM Primals are easy (save Titan but that's what I like about it; it's challenging) but even after one screw up or badly timed LB by someone everyone seems to lose their spine and run out. Even when it's looking promising.

Like not long ago I decided to try my luck on DF Titan HM. The only problem we had was the timing; one more try probably would've done the trick. Instead everyone just lost their nerve and quit out after only 4 wipes D:<. I've been in progression raiding from WoW, CoX, SWtor (what little there is >,<) and Everquest. I've learned that wipes come with the territory. It's a part of the raiding experience.

I guess what I'm saying is that people shouldn't get discouraged because they didn't one shot it. Stay committed, don't give up and keep trying. Luck favors those that take the highest risks.

Putting regular difficulty content on a raid finder is a bad idea. Your raid finder raids need

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Originally Posted by Veurr

Putting regular difficulty content on a raid finder is a bad idea. Your raid finder raids need

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Stupid phone. Your raid finder content needs to be killable when less thant 10% of the group knows how to play their class and execute the encounter.

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It's a part of the raiding experience.

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If you are using DF it is not considered "the raiding experience", it's considered hoping and praying that 6/8 of the people are competent. If you want the raiding experience join a LS/FC.

People generally in MMO's want to win right away and don't want to work on it. Even if you are a run that is getting better every try people don't want to keep pushing and win they'd rather start over for some reason and get back to people screwing up early on. Just a general sense of entitlement that people have and they feel that everything must be perfect. Seen people leave after a single wipe plenty of times.

After running the same content 100s of times and you still see the same mistakes over and over, you know what's going to happen, nothing.

i would say it's not courage but stamina to stay the course. after wiping so many times, it gets very tiring and most people will just want to move on, take a break and do something else for a while.

Maybe they are worried about being treated like shit by other players.

I'll admit it's pretty annoying, too. Though it's even more annoying to get something like two Bards as DPS in Amdapor Keep and then both of them going "omgwtf no dps limit break we screwed yo", conveniently ignoring their Ifrit/Garuda bows which they have in 90% of the cases. -_-

Same deal with Garuda. Just Final Heaven one damned clone and burn the other down if you can't have Meteor. I've heard that Ifrit's Hellfire can be survived with a Last Bastion too. :p

Because there is no reason to be wiping in DF HM Primals anymore. The state of endgame is not what it was a month or so ago. EVERYBODY has Relic Wpns and Coil gear, there should be no excessive wiping in HM Ifrit/Garuda anymore. Maybe you are late to the scene but when the frontier of progression has long passed, the tolerance for wipes go down. The good players slowly disappear from the DF and what you are left with is a cesspool of bad and inexperienced players. People who have been downing these bosses for over a month have no wish to wipe again and again. The people who need these bosses killed usually find local premades through shout chat or FC/LS chat, and only bad unsocial casuals use the DF and expect victory.

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Originally Posted by Raminax

I've heard that Ifrit's Hellfire can be survived with a Last Bastion too. :p

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Tank lb + sch sacred soil + succor. Should have stone skin also on anyone less than 3k hp

I love it when people quit the group after a couple wipes, bitching about how they don't want to waste their time with a bunch of casuals/scrubs/whatever. They then get immediately replaced and the group finish the dungeon/Primal easily. Meanwhile, those people who just couldn't bear to be around such 'bad players' are sitting around for 15 minutes while everyone else is already onto the next dungeon/Primal.

It's even better if the droppers are DDs and need to sit in a 20 minutes queue for WP/AK after dealing with a 15 minute penalty.

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Originally Posted by Raminax

Same deal with Garuda. Just Final Heaven one damned clone and burn the other down if you can't have Meteor. I've heard that Ifrit's Hellfire can be survived with a Last Bastion too. :p

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If you kill 3/4 of the nails and Last Bastion is active, Hellfire does ~2k-2.5k damage I believe. Each nail gives a full LB bar so you will always have it no matter what if you don't use LB killing the nails. You just have to make sure to gather for Last Bastion.

We had to resort to that for some Ifrit kills as we kill him too fast to get to even LB2 now that we have a couple Relic+1's in the FC.

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Originally Posted by legendarytoyou

I've been in progression raiding from WoW, CoX, SWtor (what little there is >,<) and Everquest. I've learned that wipes come with the territory. It's a part of the raiding experience.

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Maybe when you're raiding with a guild of people this holds true, but when you're grouping up with a bunch of random people you don't know and that same WHM dies before the heart phase every time it's a bit discouraging.

The only time I've completed Titan HM it was with a local server group. It started out rough. Aforementioned WHM problem, then we had a Bard that kept D/Cing or dying a lot. Once we replaced them things went smoother, but it still took a lot of attempts for people to see the move patterns and learn how to react to them. There were at least a few attempts where it was the tank, one whm and me as BLM still standing at low HP %, but the lone WHM would go OOM and that'd be the end of it.

Long story short, you can't expect much out of a DF group. Local server groups might be more willing to stick it out (took me 3 hours between replacing people and finally getting some solid attempts in) whereas doing it with an FC or LS will probably yield the best results.

Titan HM seems to be the only real challenging primal . Everything else has fairly good kill rate .

Lag is probably the biggest issue with Titan imo

I haven't really had problems with ifrit on duty finder. Garuda/Titan HM I always do with friends usually because we are farming for weapons or their furniture drops. If your party gets the boss to like 40% and has a mistake and wipes if someone quits they are just impatient and expect a 100% win first try from duty finder. My FC calls most duty finder groups for primals practice when everyone isn't online to help one another out.

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Originally Posted by Archona

Because there is no reason to be wiping in DF HM Primals anymore. The state of endgame is not what it was a month or so ago. EVERYBODY has Relic Wpns and Coil gear, there should be no excessive wiping in HM Ifrit/Garuda anymore. Maybe you are late to the scene but when the frontier of progression has long passed, the tolerance for wipes go down. The good players slowly disappear from the DF and what you are left with is a cesspool of bad and inexperienced players. People who have been downing these bosses for over a month have no wish to wipe again and again. The people who need these bosses killed usually find local premades through shout chat or FC/LS chat, and only bad unsocial casuals use the DF and expect victory.

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Actually the BEST HM titan DF group i have EVER had was one with NO relics were were all geared or roughly so...Would have downed him had i not needed to leaved due to RL stuff....So no some people really are just THAT cowardly.

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Originally Posted by Mysteltain

I love it when people quit the group after a couple wipes, bitching about how they don't want to waste their time with a bunch of casuals/scrubs/whatever. They then get immediately replaced and the group finish the dungeon/Primal easily. Meanwhile, those people who just couldn't bear to be around such 'bad players' are sitting around for 15 minutes while everyone else is already onto the next dungeon/Primal.

It's even better if the droppers are DDs and need to sit in a 20 minutes queue for WP/AK after dealing with a 15 minute penalty.

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Actually one of the biggest problems is you CAN'T replace in a Trial(AKA primal fight)

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Originally Posted by Veurr

Your raid finder content needs to be killable when less thant 10% of the group knows how to play their class and execute the encounter.

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Yeah sure great idea. That way everyone and their dog can say "Ive beaten Titan, i can go with you" and then get you endless wipes in the regular HM because the DF version was basically a titan themed punching bag.

WoWs Raid Finder was a good idea in concept, But there needed to be a way to use it NOT get the easymode training wheels version of the Raid.

The DF works fine for all the Primals. I'm yet to defeat Titan, though I can always make it past the Heart, but die to the Weights due to overlap making it impossible to get out of them. I'll work it out eventually.
If we had a DF version of Titan that didn't do Weights or bombs, what do you think would happen when these people then need to do Titan to get their Relics? They're still in your group you shouted for, and they STILL don't know the fight.

I have had people leave even w/o a wipe. We had healer leave in AK because the first boss took too long in his estimation. Same story with a tank in another party. In the first case the tank was a little inexperienced (had trouble holding agro on multiple mobs), but overall he did okay and tried to improve. Anyway we picked up another relic +1 sch to replace the one that left. He was very helpful and blasted through AK, I think he did more DPS than either me or the mnk. Anyway, it turned into a positive in one case.

Sometimes even winning isn't enough these days. I did leave a WP party due to the sch being severely undergeared, to the tune of level 7 accessories (except DL wrist of striking). We wiped before the first boss. I figured they would need someone that could provide more help than I could give. My BRD is geared okay, but nowhere near enough to carry the party.

I do not understand this eighter. If you take the 90 min you have you should be able to teach everyone in the party how to beat the boss.. In 90 min one should down him. But no, they keep on jumping, making it taking weeks to down him instand of 90 intense min with one group.

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Originally Posted by legendarytoyou

Like not long ago I decided to try my luck on DF Titan HM. The only problem we had was the timing; one more try probably would've done the trick. Instead everyone just lost their nerve and quit out after only 4 wipes D:<.

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I think it takes quite a bit of courage to try to pug Titan via DF. Ifrit - yes, Garuda - maybe but I'd never use DF for Titan.
Also, 4 wipes is enough to tell that it would likely take 10 or more to clear it but I don't know the details. What percentage was he at and who was still alive at that time? Did you wipe on the heart?
And finally, people don't have infinite time to stay and try it over and over again.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

I do not understand this eighter. If you take the 90 min you have you should be able to teach everyone in the party how to beat the boss.. In 90 min one should down him. But no, they keep on jumping, making it taking weeks to down him instand of 90 intense min with one group.

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if 1 guy is standing on the fringe of the arena and not getting aoe healed and refuses to move when you ask him, 1 guy is getting hit by landslide because of 'omg bs lag' and two guys start casting their longest spells when wotl is about to drop and the drg/mnk doesnt know how to use lb, and you're there for the 50th time that week fed up, you're not gonna stick around for 90 minutes..

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Originally Posted by BunnyChain

I think it takes quite a bit of courage to try to pug Titan via DF. Ifrit - yes, Garuda - maybe but I'd never use DF for Titan.
Also, 4 wipes is enough to tell that it would likely take 10 or more to clear it but I don't know the details. What percentage was he at and who was still alive at that time? Did you wipe on the heart?
And finally, people don't have infinite time to stay and try it over and over again.

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I beat him around this time maybe an hour later yesterday via DF....I sapmmed and spammed and spammed some more..By the end i was dodging like a pro he only hit me a few times mainly in P5....DF can be fun and i LOVE the challenge.

Also i for one will ONLY leave an IRL thing happens....But yeah alot of people just jump..one thing my FC is looking at doing is free titan runs just to mess with those selling em after we have him on farm.

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Originally Posted by SorriorDragneel

Actually one of the biggest problems is you CAN'T replace in a Trial(AKA primal fight)

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I concur with this.

People leave for a variety of reasons. Some leave to avoid being shamed if they were performing badly. Others leave because they're very picky about who they run with and they have no interest in teaching others.

Teams work better when they're willing to grind and learn together, but that's really something a linkshell team or FC team should do. If statics are committed relationships, Duty Finder groups are the equivalent of dirty Craigslist hookups.

People will leave for whatever reasons they deem important.

The real issue is that 7 other people that want to work together cannot replace a missing member in certain types of fights.