SE, why to consider the validity of not hindering speed runs.

http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged...200410220.html

It's a thing. You want to be trendy and stay up to date with your player base, then do so.

I think you would get a much better response if you summarize the points you think that matter from the article that can be appropriately applied to FFXIV. Currently, your argument is very vague, so I, for example, have no idea if I can agree or disagree with you. Others might feel the same way.

You missed the part where it said,

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With a few exceptions, speedrunning is usually not something for which these videogames reward you.

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This is an MMO. It's different from single player games.

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Originally Posted by Akujin

http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged...200410220.html

It's a thing. You want to be trendy and stay up to date with your player base, then do so.

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If you want to play fast food type of games, you shouldnt play this mmorpg. You should just play single player console game like Skyrim or at the best World of Warcraft. Dont expect every other player has same preference as you. I dont need someone head me everything on a silver plate.

That whole article was about how players use EXPLOITS and GLITCHES to advance themselves through a game faster. And these are single player games. This type of gameplay doesn't belong in XIV.

Speed runs for dungeons aren't being done for best time to clear records. They are being exploited for faster tome farming. Speed running dungeons like CM has created a a rift between endgame veterns and players still completing the story. i.e. the cutscene issue.
Watching all the cutscene might add another 5-10 minutes to the timer if everyone didn't advance while the scene was playing out. Whats the big deal allowing someone to enjoy that experience?


Obviously SE wants players to play through the content, not skip it. on that note, I would go as far as suggesting that while in a dungeon when a mob is engaged by any player, everyone in the party accumulates 1 hate. that way you can't exploit sac. pulls.

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Originally Posted by Akujin

http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged...200410220.html

It's a thing. You want to be trendy and stay up to date with your player base, then do so.

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Serious question: does anyone care enough about speedrunners to think that any game should be tailored towards them?

Serious answer: quite obviously, no. The article you linked has no relevance to the discussion board you're posting it on...

While it very well is "a thing" as you so boldly put it, I'd like to remind you that..

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Potty-Putter-...lH)w~~60_3.JPG

.. this is also "a thing".

Just because something is deemed "a thing" does not make it a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

If you want to play fast food type of games, you shouldnt play this mmorpg. You should just play single player console game like Skyrim or at the best World of Warcraft. Dont expect every other player has same preference as you. I dont need someone head me everything on a silver plate.

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This game like WoW is the definition of "fast food games" regardless of speed runs, you can get a relic in 2 1/2hrs from start to finish, you can do coil 1-4 in 2hrs, you can hit cap level in 2-3 days, nothing in this game takes any time, its instant gratification.

Speed runs are here because it cant not exist in this type of game, if you need something to progress in a game, and you give multiple ways to obtain whatever that is, one way will be faster, and that's what smart people will do (at least if you have to repeat it). Now if you can do this never-ending repeatable faster path, faster than others by gear/party comp, you do it. Why? Because shaving 20-30mins off of every single run is a lot of time.

People that barely play don't understand the amount of time it saves because they cannot see the other side of the fence. If you run praetorium once a day, or maybe ever, then yes, 30min's may not mean much, but if you run the exact same thing 200 times, 30min's x 200, that's 100hrs. To fully gear every job in just DL you need to run hundreds and hundreds of runs.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

That whole article was about how players use EXPLOITS and GLITCHES to advance themselves through a game faster. And these are single player games. This type of gameplay doesn't belong in XIV.

Speed runs for dungeons aren't being done for best time to clear records. They are being exploited for faster tome farming. Speed running dungeons like CM has created a a rift between endgame veterns and players still completing the story. i.e. the cutscene issue.
Watching all the cutscene might add another 5-10 minutes to the timer if everyone didn't advance while the scene was playing out. Whats the big deal allowing someone to enjoy that experience?

Obviously SE wants players to play through the content, not skip it. on that note, I would go as far as suggesting that while in a dungeon when a mob is engaged by any player, everyone in the party accumulates 1 hate. that way you can't exploit sac. pulls.

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People are confused about who the rift is between, its casual/hardcore's, FF11 kept us apart, this game forces us together, people want to watch CS's, while I couldn't care less, I've never watched any of the CS's in FF14 unless the game forced me to do it, the story has literally nothing to do with progression. The solution to this whole problem was already given by SE, people can watch CS's in the INN yet people claim it breaks immersion, apparently the condition to holding their "immersion" is holding 7 people hostage while they watch the exact same CS for the 100th time while laughing at people wanting to finish the dungeon they've already run hundreds of times.

I don't think people speedrunning duty finder story dungeons will be as much of an issue after latest patch. Seeing as it's possible to full clear WP in 9 minutes and all.

People should not be surprised if the ability to efficiently speed run is eliminated entirely, considering they warned the playerbase already:

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--snip--
As advancing through dungeons without defeating enemies is not an intended strategy, we plan to continue making further changes in the future to discourage this type of behavior.
--snip--

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I dont get the point of them coding a long dungeon with special mechanics just so that everyone will learn how to speedrun it and not enjoy it the way it was intended to be played. Weird and a waste of time. They should just do a straight hallway to the final boss if that is what players demand.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

I dont get the point of them coding a long dungeon with special mechanics just so that everyone will learn how to speedrun it and not enjoy it the way it was intended to be played. Weird and a waste of time. They should just do a straight hallway to the final boss if that is what players demand.

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Because we are forced to run that exact same "long dungeon" hundreds of time, why do people eyes apparently glaze over this fact. The only people who hate speed running, are the people that do everything once, then quit the game, this type of game forces speed running.

Even if they manage to make it so you are forced to kill every single mob in the dungeon, there will be an optimal party comp, gear req's, if there are multiple options for getting tokens, people will flock to the faster option and every other option will be a virtual ghost town. This is vertical gear progression revolving around tokens, get used to it.

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Originally Posted by Jeronlmo

This game like WoW is the definition of "fast food games" regardless of speed runs, you can get a relic in 2 1/2hrs from start to finish, you can do coil 1-4 in 2hrs, you can hit cap level in 2-3 days, nothing in this game takes any time, its instant gratification.

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I don't understand this... When people say, "You can hit level cap in 2-3 days" are you talking about 48-72 hours worth of playing or are you talking about real life days? If it's 2-3 real life days, I don't buy that for a second if you play like a normal person and not a super obsessed person that cares nothing for anything else. The only reason people hit level cap pretty quick in the beginning is because they figured out doing fates with a group was fast xp, they were easily tagging all the enemies because not many others were doing it, and back then fates were spawning one after another with hardly any downtime. There is no way people can do it super fast today.

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Originally Posted by Jeronlmo

Because we are forced to run that exact same "long dungeon" hundreds of time, why do people eyes apparently glaze over this fact. The only people who hate speed running, are the people that do everything once, then quit the game, this type of game forces speed running.

Even if they manage to make it so you are forced to kill every single mob in the dungeon, there will be an optimal party comp, gear req's, if there are multiple options for getting tokens, people will flock to the faster option and every other option will be a virtual ghost town. This is vertical gear progression revolving around tokens, get used to it.

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You can not speak for everyone that plays this game so your point is false. I've done CM over 15 times and I never enjoyed it once because I'm forced to speed run.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

You can not speak for everyone that plays this game so your point is false. I've done CM over 15 times and I never enjoyed it once because I'm forced to speed run.

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Non sequitur. NO ONE enjoys CM (past maybe the first couple of times). However after doing it multiple times, most people will try and get it down faster just because they don't enjoy it and they want to get it done and over with faster. I think from the second time I did CM I was already sick of the place and tried to do the runs as fast as possible to get my DL and be done with it. Thank God we have WP and AK now giving 100 tomes so I don't have to do CM ever again.

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Originally Posted by Lisotte

Non sequitur. NO ONE enjoys CM (past maybe the first couple of times). However after doing it multiple times, most people will try and get it down faster just because they don't enjoy it and they want to get it done and over with faster. I think from the second time I did CM I was already sick of the place and tried to do the runs as fast as possible to get my DL and be done with it. Thank God we have WP and AK now giving 100 tomes so I don't have to do CM ever again.

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You must have been one of the few that could enjoy it the first time. Unfortunately because of speed running. No one can even enjoy it their first time anymore.

It's funny because in the original 1.xx version of the game speed running wasn't only allowed it was encouraged by SE. Drops for the best gear and items needed for relics were extremely low but if your group "Speed run" it hard enough more treasure chests would appear for your group and the drop rate would rise up to or near 100%. Lots of people complained though that it took a lot of the fun out of exploring dungeons with this mindset of mad rushing every run.

I guess the main reason they changed it though for 2.0 was because the original version was built for the hardcore mindset and now that their expanding their base, so they redesigned it to be more casual.

Things like this make me wonder as if there are truly any people out there that are on the middle ground in this fiasco of sorts?
I truly feel that both sides have their merits, speedruns are causing people to not enjoy their first time in dungeons and thus causes group disruptions.
However, on the flip side you have the fact that you do have to run these exact same dungeons multiple times, causing it to become excessively dull and repetitive. If you can make an hour long run in twenty minutes, then do as such.

However, I know for a matter of fact, that as a tank I am in part responsible for dungeon pacing and how we'll tackle it, I know for certain that for my FIRST run of a dungeon, I will be sure to experience it to it's fullest, ignoring the barraging behest of those who wish for me to skip cutscenes. However, for any SEQUENTIAL run beyond that point, I'd be sure to do it as fast as I can as I have already seen what the dungeon fully has to offer, so what reason for there would be to experience something a second time? At that point, you can simply rewatch it in the Inn.

I haven't reached endgame dungeons yet, but going by my experience in other games: speedruns absolutely suck. I hate it when I'm stuck with people that want to skip mobs just to reach the boss faster and I'll be happy if SE redesigns their dungeons in order to prevent this.

Make it so bosses drop more treasure chests if you kill everything in the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I haven't reached endgame dungeons yet, but going by my experience in other games: speedruns absolutely suck. I hate it when I'm stuck with people that want to skip mobs just to reach the boss faster and I'll be happy if SE redesigns their dungeons in order to prevent this.

Make it so bosses drop more treasure chests if you kill everything in the dungeon.

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I agree, especially if I'm in the zone for the first time, I can't absorb the dungeon and learn from it. If the party has a problem with it, I'll just leave but that's time cut from play-enjoyment. I say put more puzzles in these death-pits they call end-game, or maybe it's not the speed-run obsession but the coffee keeping us all awake at night! o_O;

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Originally Posted by Kewhi

While it very well is "a thing" as you so boldly put it, I'd like to remind you that..

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Potty-Putter-...lH)w~~60_3.JPG

.. this is also "a thing".

Just because something is deemed "a thing" does not make it a good thing.

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I agree 'that' explains the extent of everything we been reading and writing on the forums...

Also there's a saying,"Even though you can, doesn't mean you should".

No major speed running organization tracks speed runs for MMOs. There are various reasons for this:

-Speedrunning an MMO's storyline, leveling up, or other major activity in the game takes too long for a recorded speed run to be interesting to watch . Speed Demos Archive, for instance, generally doesn't accept speed runs that take 7 hours or more (even if it would be a legitimate record)- ruling many games, such as any MMO, more or less out of consideration.

-Speedrunning other things in a game, like a dungeon or boss fight, in an MMO, is generally not accepted because the parameters and conditions of the games frequently change. Speedruns are typically only accepted from finished games that do not get patched or changed frequently. in the case of MMOs, they are patched constantly, people get stronger and will continously improve the best time as the game gets older not because their skill improved, but simply because they got better gear or reached a higher level (That is, there is no base line or optimal conditions that will remain optimal forever).

Speedrunning in an MMO is almost purely to gain rewards faster, not to set a record or earn bragging rights.

I can understand why people do speed runs. Repeating something that doesn't change over and over might be fun for a short while but it soon becomes something you no longer enjoy. When that time hits you have choices..
A) Continue until you either get the reward or you end up not even wanting to log in
B) Find the best way to do it to reduce the amount of time you suffer the boredom.

It isn't about putting effort into earning something, I am 100% sure that if each dung were different and it took the same amount of dungs as it did via the repeat method people wouldn't want to speed run. They wouldn't be getting so mind-numbingly bored.
I am nowhere near end game as yet but i have played enough MMO's to know that some grind is ok but everyone has that point they hit where it isn't about enjoyment any more, it is about not wasting previous effort and pushing on for the reward.

I know to a point that what MMO's are about and i could understand the grind 10 years ago. These days you would think that there would be a way to randomize dungs in some way so each run is different. So that way it is different enough to hold off wanting to chew your keyboard.

Gil is nice for killing normal mobs, But it really should be % of trash = % of reward at the end.

I'm here to have fun, I don't get if I get my Relic tomorrow or in 5 weeks But I don't want to be rush. I don't need to be rushed, otherwize this like so many other MMOs will burn bright and burn out.. MMO last not because you finish everything in a week and got nothing left to do. But because they are really 10-20 Solo games in one, where you never really run out of things to do.