Warrior is OP

Why do others say Warrior is weak whereas it's truly OP, Yoshi himself recommended Warrior Class

This thread is groundbreaking for mmos as we know them

I agree. To naysayers:

Do you even WAR?

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Originally Posted by Destinova

If war is op how do we play them that way? I just hit 50 war been tanking as 50 pld. I havent had much time to test my war rotations.

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Its not really OP. Pld is, and pld are also easier to play. :c Supposedly we wars do more damage, but I think that has been dis-proven a few times by people that actually get out there and test the numbers. Wars are still viable though, its just that Pld is tanking/healing easy mode.

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Originally Posted by Nictuswolf

PLD or GTFO!

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Yes, hide behind your puny shields and cower while the real WARRIORS are taking hits and dishing out hell with our mighty axes! :P Do you even WAR?

If war is op how do we play them that way? I just hit 50 war been tanking as 50 pld. I havent had much time to test my war rotations.

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Originally Posted by Juubi

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A bold claim for someone who hasn't leveled Gladiator or Marauder at all...

OP?

Yes, maybe their HP is OP.....But watching them drop dead in 2-3 hits is laughable.

PLD or GTFO!

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Originally Posted by Juubi

Why do others say Warrior is weak whereas it's truly OP, Yoshi himself recommended Warrior Class

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Arcanist is OP

You guys should know this smells like trolling.

OP doesn't even have a Marauder. He's just trolling.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

A bold claim for someone who hasn't leveled Gladiator or Marauder at all...

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I've grouped with Warriors in Dungeons, they can both tank and do massive dps unlike PLD who are purely tanks

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Originally Posted by Juubi

I've grouped with Warriors in Dungeons, they can both thank and do massive dps unlike PLD who are purely tanks

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When they thank, do you say "you're welcome?"

yea cause in every MMO true tanks arent proactive damage midigators XD ,marus are so OP and are the kings of tanking *eye roll*

This is the cookie cutter generation of gaming. These new guys think there is only one class for every role. This class must be agreed upon by the games top dungeon groups, then the rest of the puppets will follow suit.

Want to tank with a WAR? "No way bro, ERMERGAWD, PLD or GTFO yoloswag!" These people aren't capable of thinking for themselves.

WARs are not bad if they are full Darklight geared with +1s or better is AF2/Allagan

People who say warriors are bad are just bandwagoners who jump on the close minded train like people do with all mmorpgs. Warriors have plenty of practical applications in all areas of the game.

I'd heal a warrior over a paladin any day on Titan. Increase lustrate/benediction/stoneskin effect on warriors in combination with their upped DPS make them a first pick for when I do Titan.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

I'd heal a warrior over a paladin any day on Titan. Increase lustrate/benediction/stoneskin effect on warriors in combination with their upped DPS make them a first pick for when I do Titan.

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All of those skills are equally as effective on a PLD as they are on a WAR.

I think the problem is people like you who have just the weakest understanding of mechanics and the tanking classes think you have some insight as to why everyone else is wrong, including the people playing the class, and you as someone with no experience with the class is right.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

All of those skills are equally as effective on a PLD as they are on a WAR.

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People who don't understand healing mechanics and cry that the tank class is broken...

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Here, let me help you out because you are obviously the one who has no idea how the mechanics work.

Stoneskin and Cure II both cost 266 MP.

At my gear level (relic & full DL with two pieces of i90) my Cure II heals around 1400 HP.

On a similarly geared Paladin my Stoneskin probably will absorb 900-1k HP depending on how they've spent their attribute points.

On a similarly geared Warrior my Stoneskin will absorb EQUAL if not MORE HP than my Cure II. This makes stoneskin more powerful AND more efficient than Cure II. And I don't have to wait for the damage to happen. Stoneskin mechanics will always be more effective than healing because I can cast it BEFORE the damage happens.

Go play both healer classes if you're going to call me on ignorance of mechanics before you cry that Warrior sucks.

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Originally Posted by Trife

This is the cookie cutter generation of gaming. These new guys think there is only one class for every role. This class must be agreed upon by the games top dungeon groups, then the rest of the puppets will follow suit.

Want to tank with a WAR? "No way bro, ERMERGAWD, PLD or GTFO yoloswag!" These people aren't capable of thinking for themselves.

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What? You're an idiot making a completely false statement, Scholar and White Mage are both accepted, all the DD are accepted, Warrior is not accepted.

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Originally Posted by Ricky

What? You're an idiot making a completely false statement, Scholar and White Mage are both accepted, all the DD are accepted, Warrior is not accepted.

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It wouldn't be the first time the mmo community perception of a job's utility is completely off base.

Yoshi-P god of Hydaelyn says warriors need to L2P, obviously QQers are either bandwagoning or doing something wrong.

A warrior affects the play style of the healers so much that literally the only thing the healers can do is spam heal them. This is especially a problem with a SCH, a good SCH, will be micro managing their pet, healing when necessary, and throwing dot's on the boss (Mind you most SCH's are idiots and only heal). This is very easy to do with a PLD tank because you can rely on them to be able to take a hit or two while you cast Bio II or wait for a gcd. With a warrior tank you literally cannot stop spamming heals because the amount of damage they take takes twice as long to heal up as a pld.

People may say warriors do more damage, but in reality, with a good group the overall parties damage output will be less because you are preventing one or two people from doing damage because they are forced to spam heal.

I was going to take this thread seriously until I noticed there were no supporting specifics to the opinion in question and that it was just another terrible Juubi thread.

Nothing to see here folks. Abandon all hope, ye who enter this thread.

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Originally Posted by ReviiLagoon

People may say warriors do more damage, but in reality, with a good group the overall parties damage output will be less because you are preventing one or two people from doing damage because they are forced to spam heal.

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If you do nothing but spam heals on a war that is playing their job correctly, you're overhealing. Few of the healers I play with seem to have this problem and can dd just fine, in cleric's stance even, while keeping me alive :T

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Originally Posted by reality_check

People who don't understand healing mechanics and cry that the tank class is broken...

Edit:

Here, let me help you out because you are obviously the one who has no idea how the mechanics work.

Stoneskin and Cure II both cost 266 MP.

At my gear level (relic & full DL with two pieces of i90) my Cure II heals around 1400 HP.

On a similarly geared Paladin my Stoneskin probably will absorb 900-1k HP depending on how they've spent their attribute points.

On a similarly geared Warrior my Stoneskin will absorb EQUAL if not MORE HP than my Cure II. This makes stoneskin more powerful AND more efficient than Cure II. And I don't have to wait for the damage to happen. Stoneskin mechanics will always be more effective than healing because I can cast it BEFORE the damage happens.

Go play both healer classes if you're going to call me on ignorance of mechanics before you cry that Warrior sucks.

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Here is a reality_check for you:

WAR and PLD have THE SAME EFFECTIVE HP.

If a WAR has 4000 base HP and a PLD has 4000 Base HP, in their respective tanking stances you will have a WAR with 5000 HP (4000 * 1.25 from defiance), and a PLD at 4000 base HP w/ 20% reduction, or 5000 base HP.

The 20% reduction effectively works out to a 25% increase in healing efficiency as well.

So if your Cure II heals for 1400 HP, that's an "effective" 1750 healing for a PLD (or rather, your heal essentially mitigates 1750 hp worth of damage).

On a WAR, they will need 9722 HP's to get as much effective mitigation out of stoneskin as your heal is mitigating on the Paladin. I don't yet have all ilvl 90 gear, but I can pretty much guarantee that no one is going to get close to those numbers. For a Stoneskin to be more MP efficient on a WAR than a heal it would depend on how many wrath stacks they have. If your cure II is 1400, that means with 0 wrath you're talking 1400 mitigation, which would require ~7900 HP before stoneskin overtakes it, with the "average" wrath (i.e. dumping inner beast every cooldown) you would need ~8400 HP before stoneskin is more effective than a 1400 base cure II. And with full wrath you would need ~8900 HP befoire stoneskin overtakes cure II.

Oh and how about the Paladin? Stoneskin will have 18% of their HP, but the damage is reduced by 20%. So stoneskin is effectively 25% more efficient. Going back to our little example about 4000 base HP WAR and PLD. Stoneskin on a PLD will be 720 absorb shield, but since damage is reduced to 80%, you end up with 720/.8 = 900. For a WAR stoneskin on 5000 HP is going to be a 900 damage shield. Equally effective on both classes.

So now you're spending more MP per point of HP, and an additional .5 seconds after the GCD in order to cast stoneskin over Cure II, which is only going to be more effective in a situation where you would significantly overheal from Cure II, and in such a situation you should probably be using Cure I anyway.

You should learn basic math and class mechanics before you try to lecture anyone about anything.

P.S. this is without even looking at the plethora of other advantages PLD has over WAR too, such as better cooldowns, shield block, and Reduced monster STR via Rage of Halone.

A Good SCH does not need to micro manage their pet. And I've done battle with both WAR and PLD tanking. And you know what? I don't see much difference in the ability to heal either one an almost all instances including Titan. I might not be able to get a great number of DoT on during some phases in battle cause the need to prioritize HP being over 3-5k or they might get one shot killed. My problem is DPS overcompensating and trying to out DPS everyone, or when adds spawn they are still trying to take out the boss when the add need to be taken out swiftly.

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Originally Posted by Kewhi

I was going to take this thread seriously until I noticed there were no supporting specifics to the opinion in question and that it was just another terrible Juubi thread.

Nothing to see here folks. Abandon all hope, ye who enter this thread.

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Yeah I thought this would be a serious discussion, but I feel like its a troll to get peoples panties in a bunch.

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Originally Posted by Ricky

What? You're an idiot making a completely false statement, Scholar and White Mage are both accepted, all the DD are accepted, Warrior is not accepted.

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Found one! lol

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Originally Posted by Trife

Found one! lol

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Sorry I won't be engaging in discussion with someone who only has one 50 and incomplete cross class abilities, feel free to message me any time you've actually done anything in this game which gives you the right to discuss what you are currently partaking in

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Here is a reality_check for you:

WAR and PLD have THE SAME EFFECTIVE HP.

blah blah blah I don't understand how healing mechanics work

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Reduced damage is not the same thing as increased healing taken. You've obviously never played a healer in any MMORPG. You can't just say that the Paladin has more HP because he takes X% less damage.

You cannot add the reduced damage from the paladin stance and pretend that it's the same as adding HP to the warrior when dealing with spells that heal based off of the max hp of the tank.

I'd continue this argument about how this game's version of last stand (whatever it's called) is infinitely better than sentinel but you're already on the band wagon that warriors suck. I'm siding with the game developers on this one.


TLDR:

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

The 20% reduction effectively works out to a 25% increase in healing efficiency as well.

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No.

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Originally Posted by Ricky

Sorry I won't be engaging in discussion with someone who only has one 50 and incomplete cross class abilities, feel free to message me any time you've actually done anything in this game which gives you the right to discuss what you are currently partaking in

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You're too cool for me man.... LOL

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Originally Posted by reality_check

People who don't understand healing mechanics and cry that the tank class is broken...

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heheh..

stoneskin is 18% of your target's HP as whm, 10% as scholar - on a paladin that 10% is effectively modified by their mitigation (20% from shield oath) AND timers, but let's forget about timers for now

on a warrior that 10% is a bigger number due to their 'mitigation' defiance

so lets say the paladin has a 1k stoneskin, and the warrior has a 1250 stoneskin (25% more hp from defiance means 25% bigger stoneskin)

now lets watch what happens when they each take a 1k damage hit

the warrior loses 1000 points off his stoneskin - leaving him with 250, the paladin loses 800 points instead of 1000 off his stoneskin (modified by shield oath) - leaving him with 200

want to guess what happens when they both take a 250 damage hit?

the warrior loses the last 250, leaving him with zero stoneskin, the paladin loses 200 instead of 250 (modified by shield oath) - leaving him with zero

oddly enough, outside of stoneskin the balance is shifted in favor of the paladin, not the warrior - full wrath stacks means 15% more healing taken vs. shield oath's 20% less damage taken

paladin effective health is higher than warrior - making every spell a whitemage or scholar could cast more effective on the paladin - except stoneskin, that one's a wash

I watched my dad play his WAR. He was doing Arum Vale and the DPS died on the first boss when he was only at half health. Between Him and the SCH they downed it! I was totally impressed.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

Reduced damage is not the same thing as increased healing taken. You've obviously never played a healer in any MMORPG. You can't just say that the Paladin has more HP because he takes X% less damage.

You cannot add the reduced damage from the paladin stance and pretend that it's the same as adding HP to the warrior.
I'd continue this argument about how this game's version of last stand (whatever it's called) is infinitely better than sentinel but you're already on the band wagon that warriors suck. I'm siding with the game developers on this one.

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Again with the wrongness. Reduced damage taken IS the same as increased healing received and it IS the same as increased EHP. It's EXACTLY the same because of something generally known as algebra.

Again, some more examples in case you need them:

If a boss does 1000 damage in an attack before any sort of damage reduction, how much healing does it take to bring the tank back to full?

Well for a WAR w/ 0 wrath stacks it will take 1000 additional healing to get them to full. For a WAR with 5 wrath stacks it will take ~870 healing to get them to full health.

For a paladin how much healing will it require to get them to full health? Well, the 1000 damage hit will be mitigated to 800 via shield oath. That means it will only take 800 healing to get them to full health.

25% of 800 is 200, and 200+800 = 1000, which is the original damage dealt prior to mitigation. Thus, by basic algebra we can see that a flat damage reduction % is effectively an increase in the healing received because it takes less healing to get the tank to where they were before the hit.

I think it's sad that you have absolutely no idea about the mechanics so intrinsic and fundamental to the job you play.

Also, LOL I want to hear your explanation as to why thrill of battle is a better defensive cooldown than Sentinel. Not only will sentinel put a PLD WAY above the EHP of a WAR with Thrill of Battle, but it will also be a huge reduction in the amount of healing necessary to keep the PLD up. I really am looking forward to your maths.

Here is mine. A PLD with sentinel has an effective HP modifier of Base HP *(1/.8)*(1/.6). For an average geared PLD (5500 HP) that puts them at 11458 EHP, and an effective mitigation of 48% (meaning they only take 48% of the bosses damage dealt).

For a WAR with 5500 base HP they would have 6875 in Defiance, and then 8250 EHP under Thrill of Battle. They get no additional mitigation, and the healing required to keep them alive is significantly higher than what is required for the PLD due to having no mitigation.

Please post your math and/or explanation.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

snip.

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"Reality check" there is no "hope" (see what i did there) your not gonna win that debate, they are both war and pld, they seem to know their respective classes very well, one even has a healer sooo...

The reality is when I'm healing a warrior my Stoneskin is just as efficient as cure II. This completely changes my play style as to when I'm healing a paladin and Stoneskin is a complete waste of MP.

That's the problem with you bandwagon crowd. You can't defend something with numbers on paper when the game is so much more dynamic than that.

Here's an actual situation of what happened with a warrior tank and a paladin tank who didn't know the Titan fight that well.
Both paladin and warrior took two bursts by incorrectly placing themselves between bombs and getting hit by both. Both of them ended up at a tiny fraction of their health. The warrior popped last stand and the paladin popped sentinel. Who do you think survived the incoming auto attack? Sure, you could argue that the Paladin could have popped sentinel before the bombs and survived better but we don't play FFXIV on paper.

Also, do you know what are infinitely more useful to a tank than conjurer cross class abilities? Pugilist ones.

Featherfoot/second wind/mantra vs. Cure/protect/stoneskin

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Originally Posted by reality_check

paladin popped sentinel.

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what you have there is a PLD making a bad decision he should (and most PLD tanks in that situation) have pooped hallowed ground 10s immunity

last stand is a WoW ability there is no such in ffxiv >.>.... i smell troll

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Originally Posted by reality_check

The comparison was sentinel vs. last stand. And, like I said, have fun playing your game on paper. Warrior is a great tank and is very capable in all the of the content in this game (I can't speak for turn 5 I haven't done it yet.)

But, go ahead. Do your math and perpetuate the idea that Warriors are awful despite the fact that the development team has told you that you're bad. Your attitude isn't anything new.

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there is no point in doing a comparison when the most optimal choice is hallowed ground in that situation.. why purposely gimp the PLD to try and make yur point sound more valid??

FYI "LAST STAND" IS A WOW ABILITY.. that alone makes this discussion moot.

also i never said warrior wasn't viable.

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Originally Posted by TitusAldin

what you have there is a PLD making a bad decision he should (and most PLD tanks in that situation) have pooped hallowed ground 10s immunity.

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The comparison was sentinel vs. last stand. And, like I said, have fun playing your game on paper. Warrior is a great tank and is very capable in all the of the content in this game (I can't speak for turn 5 I haven't done it yet.)

But, go ahead. Do your math and perpetuate the idea that Warriors are awful despite the fact that the development team has told you that you're bad. Your attitude isn't anything new.

As a healer, I hate when a warrior joins a party, they have paper thin defense, and can be just plain stressful.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

The comparison was sentinel vs. last stand. And, like I said, have fun playing your game on paper. Warrior is a great tank and is very capable in all the of the content in this game (I can't speak for turn 5 I haven't done it yet.)

But, go ahead. Do your math and perpetuate the idea that Warriors are awful despite the fact that the development team has told you that you're bad. Your attitude isn't anything new.

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You're comparing Sentinel to a skill that does not exist. There is no 'Last Stand' on a Warrior, so no one has any idea what you're talking about. Also, no one uses Sentinel after big damage has already hit unless they are braindead.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

stuff

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The only CON cross class skills I use on my PLD is stoneskin, I know my healers appreciate it when no CD's are up during fights such as ADS turn 2 or Caeduceus Turn 1.

PUG cross class actions are pretty bad w/o the buffs you get from PUG main. Mantra's 5% even stacked w/ Convalescence is still less then a PLD's enhanced Conv. Featherfoot is moot, any mob that is going to miss you w/ FF up is also going to be blindable by a PLDs flash. Second Wind when it lands a crit w/ berserk up is great... otherwise that 500-600 hp you net isnt really worth a whole lot... considering a PLD can cast stoneskin and negate more dmg, and its recast time is instant.

Now I love my WAR and I do it as often as possible. Don't be naive though. PLD is far superior to warrior in the current state.

One more thing~ if a WHM times stoneskin on me when my thrill of battle is on... BEST CASE SCENARIO... It will mitigate 1642 damage (9124HP currently on war w/ ToB up) but thats a small window to land and usually wont be popping thrill unless I'm in need of hp... in which case the whm will be tossing cures instead. I fail to see how stoneskin could ever be better then cure 2 for you...