Elitism and How It Is Ruining The Gaming Community [Discussion, Feedback, and Rants]

EDIT: Thought I'd clear some things up. The AK run I described was before I joined any FC or LS. This is based off of my experience in my server and what people have told me. I don't know if it is all true (requiring DL for AK for your first time or something). The thread is to generate ideas for this unavoidable problems and to see if other people on any other servers are experiencing what I am. Coming on here to whine about my rant doesn't serve a purpose in this thread. And with that said, here you go:

Now before I get started, I know that elitism is (unfortunately) a healthy part of a Massive Multiplayer Online game. They're what drive the community, even though they can be annoying.

I haven't played many MMO games, but from what I've read and understood, this is the worst endgame community anyone has been in. There are elitists left and right with no way to avoid them. There have been several reports of elitists ruining the experience for people or complaining about the smallest details. I understand that things such as Amdapor Keep and Wanderer's Palace require at least Darklight armor, but what gets me is the amount of people who whine about players watching the cutscenes during the game. This is a Final Fantasy. The entire series is renown for their stories, and yet we have people who are saying you're not allowed to watch the story because I say so or else I'll kick you. I know that the patch from this morning helped with that, but I can nearly guarantee you that it will continue. People will still use Castrum Meridianum and The Praetorium for speed-runs to get their Allagan Tomestomes of Philosophy, as they still give the highest amount out of any of the other dungeons in the game. There was a user on my server, Midgardsormr, who was declaring that if you're a PlayStation 3 user, before you can even be a part of his party, you had to have Relic+1, FULL Darklight, AND a Photo ID, practically preventing anyone from getting in. Not only is this against the rules of the game, as you cannot single out who is playing on what system, it is also the disgusting truth that elitists are ruining this community. I'm getting tired of seeing things like "LFM Titan HM Farm. Have FULL DL and Relic. AVOIDABLE MISTAKES WILL NOT BE TOLERATED" and things like this. I know I can just get rid of shout altogether, but we can only avoid it for so long before we have to go back to it. The Duty Finder is also bringing the worst out of people. We have elitists saying that, even for a CM run, other people's gear sucks and they shouldn't be here. There, unfortunately, should be an instance server for people who are doing the storyline CM and Prae and then people who are doing speedruns. That's my alternative idea to avoiding some of this mess. What are your thoughts on this? Hopefully SE will see this and take action.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

Balmung is especially bad for elitist behaviour being a legacy server

Literally, you won't get a pre-made team for anything unless you have full darklight and a relic (Save for HM primals, which are typically DL + weapon from the primal below); afterall why would they? - 90% of the players already have all level 50's and full gear before the server even launched. Why rub shoulders with newbies who (heaven forbid) might not yet have the dungeon on farm yet? (Though i have AK on farm but my lack of full DL and a relic means I must be teh suckzors)

If you're on a legacy server don't expect to actually play with your server-mates, it's DF way or no way (Unless of course, you already have full darklight and a relic, in which case you're in with the in crowd)


I've been practicing Titan HM and can reliably get deep into phase 5, but DF teams always end up with dead DPS every single time and can't finish the fight (Usually they eat a bomb or landslide); which is to be expected. But I can't take that education to a premade team on Balmung to finish the fight, because I need to prove that I've beaten titan at least once before before anyone'll let me on their team; so it's a catch 22

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Originally Posted by Sove92

I think the problem lies in some people doing speedruns via DF. Fixed parties have a right to choose their party members but a DF party does not.

- First timer uses DF to enter Castrum.
- Gets in a speedrun group
- "Skip the CS or you're griefing"
- Ignores them, the newcomer has the right to watch the cutscenes
- Gets harassed

Now there are people trying to DF AK while undergeared (full AF and 49+ other stuff is enough to beat it, but say that to 90% of AK parties). Same thing, these people are relentlessly harassed.

People feel that they are entitled to choose their party members in DF, when they are not. If I get a bad party member in DF, I see how far it goes and leave after it becomes obvious this is going nowhere, no harassment needed.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

I guess to put a more statistical approach to my (end-game) dungeoneering and experiences:

Duty finder runs have been generally positive:
- Of 4 titan HM attempts: x1 Tank bailed immediatly. x1 Had an abusive player. x2 Had patient players willing to practice
- Of 7 AK runs: x3 Could not clear demon wall. x2 Had amazingly nice players. x2 Were unremarkable
- Of 3 CM runs: x1 Had an abusive player. x2 The tanks bailed before the run was complete

Pre-mades on Balmung have been very negative:
- Of 3 titan HM attempts: x2 Had abusive players who bailed. x1 Didn't even begin*
- Of 1 AK run: x1 Had an abusive player who bailed

*On that particular run, the team leader upon seeing my less-than-100% DL gear forced the team to re-form and broadcast in Mor Dhona zone chat that I was a "filthy casual expecting to be carried and to black list me", which unfortunatly a surprising number of players actually obliged their request


Conclusion:
Generally, people are more polite and friendly on the duty finder. The elitists tend to stick to pre-mades so they don't have to rub shoulders with mere mortals. However, even then the Duty Finder displays a VERY high amount of toxic behaviour (38% of runs had players who were verbally abusive, and/or bailed from the run due to the team's perceived inadequacies), which is something that needs to be addressed urgently for the health of the game. A strange trend however is that people's behaviour tends to be worse towards members of their own server, than to total strangers they are unlikely to meet again; apparently in Eorzea shitting on your own doorstep is how the cool kids do it.

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This is the kind of stuff the topic was made for.

Once upon a time, people beat dead horses.

I think you have some things wrong:

Elitism != Healthy

AK + WP does not require Darklight

This is not the worst endgame community (see LoL and Middle East)

Other then that - I understand your point and unfortunately there's nothing you can do aside from ignoring those who are assholes to you. Think of it as practice for life XD

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Originally Posted by Ayiana_Arch

I understand that things such as Amdapor Keep and Wanderer's Palace require at least Darklight armor

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What the... requiring level 70 armor to do a dungeon that drops level 60?

I haven't done those two yet, but makes no sense to me.

I have something better to talk about. Like. "DO WE REALLY NEED ANOTHER ONE OF THESE THREADS?" Not to be rude but its just.. enough you know? Nothing is going to come from this thread save for people getting angry. If you don't like the people just ignore them. Thats what i do. I have a strict no tolerance policy, they are rude, out the door i go. 15 is nothing for me.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

What the... requiring level 70 armor to do a dungeon that drops level 60?

I haven't done those two yet, but makes no sense to me.

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But that's my point. People told me that I couldn't do WP/AK without at least some DL, and now we have people who are asking for full DL and Relic+1 for this very thing, which should require maybe one or two pieces of DL and the rest be your AF set.

10/10 I paticualry enjoyed the part about elitists requiring PS3 users to submit photo ID.

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

I think you have some things wrong:
AK + WP does not require Darklight
XD

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The dungeons do not require them, and people don't understand that. Before I was even considered ready for the runs, people told me I needed DL, which made no sense to me but I had to go along with it to get second lieutenant in my gc. It's things like this that made me create this thread. People have this misconception that unless you have DL, you're not going anywhere. You can do some things without it, but the majority does require DL. AK and WP are not one of them, at least in my opinion.

WP is doable in af gear and a level 44 GC weapon. It just take a bit longer.

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Originally Posted by Ayiana_Arch

The dungeons do not require them, and people don't understand that. Before I was even considered ready for the runs, people told me I needed DL, which made no sense to me but I had to go along with it to get second lieutenant in my gc. It's things like this that made me create this thread. People have this misconception that unless you have DL, you're not going anywhere. You can do some things without it, but the majority does require DL. AK and WP are not one of them, at least in my opinion.

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I try to pug primals because it's fun. I have relic and do Titan with people because it's fun. I do AK and WP pubs because it's fun.

If I stop having fun, I stop playing the game. Simple as that. Don't be so focused on progression. If you are, you're gonna not have fun.

Find people who want to do content with you. Screw those that try to force you into anything.

If you want to progress according to the rules of someone else, I think you're looking for a Job. Which is OK - some people like to play games that way. But if you do, you're gonna have to put up with jerks. Because in real life, there are jerks. And you have to deal with them.

But not in a game. You can do what you want here.

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

I try to pug primals because it's fun. I have relic and do Titan with people because it's fun. I do AK and WP pubs because it's fun.

If I stop having fun, I stop playing the game. Simple as that. Don't be so focused on progression. If you are, you're gonna not have fun.

Find people who want to do content with you. Screw those that try to force you into anything.

If you want to progress according to the rules of someone else, I think you're looking for a Job. Which is OK - some people like to play games that way. But if you do, you're gonna have to put up with jerks. Because in real life, there are jerks. And you have to deal with them.

But not in a game. You can do what you want here.

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Heh. The AK run was before I joined all of my LS's and my FC.

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I haven't played many MMO games, but from what I've read and understood, this is the worst endgame community anyone has been in.

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Stopped reading there. From what I'v actually experienced (not just read) the community is fine.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Stopped reading there. From what I'v actually experienced (not just read) the community is fine.

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From what I have experienced, it's what I described. Maybe it's different for each server?

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They won't last.

People with these kinds of attitudes have short attention spans. That's why they speed run and try to insist you skip cutscenes.* They will eventually get bored and those of us with some actual human DNA will remain.

* They can say whatever they want. I worked hard to get to L50 and when I did the last two quests, I refused to let them rush me. I watched all of them while they ran off without me, and I finished them just as they were finishing the last battle. They said I was leeching, despite me starting off with a message to the party, "I worked hard to get here, doing quests, leves, and dungeons. I did not take the easy route and do FATEs. Please be patient and allow me to watch the cutscenes." One person responded: "skippy skip."

While there are some absolute derps making life unpleasant by demanding you snap to attention after doing a backflip and killing daemon wall with a toothbrush, there are also groups who did the fail fail fail grind already and just want to gear. You'll join them eventually, might take two runs, might take fifty.

From the perspective of an AK veteran, I cannot wait for gear check limits to stop people going in with the Artifact (45 story armour) and equivalent weapons. WP is a totally different beast, that's the intermediate step where you gear for AK.

I refuse to take people without decent gear on AK farming runs because we want experience, competency and speed. However I also routinely take in new people in order to teach them - everyone has to start somewhere and learn. Sorry your experience has been tainted :(

Go troll the EVE Online forums for an hour if you want elitism.

Most people playing that and this though think it's all foolishness. Most people just play their damn game and log out.

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Originally Posted by CruciasNZ

]I refuse to take people without decent gear on AK farming runs because we want experience, competency and speed. However I also routinely take in new people in order to teach them - everyone has to start somewhere and learn. Sorry your experience has been tainted :(

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It's all good. I'm glad to see there are still people in this community that take new people in. It's people like you that give me hope that we can turn this community around. :)

It's up to the person setting up a run to determine what their requirements will be to join THEIR group. Their group = not your group. If somebody wants people to have full darklite and relic+1 to go run castrum, then so be it. They don't care that it can be done half naked with their bare hands as weapons, because they're going for speed and efficiency, not for the funsies of it.

Don't meet their requirements? Too bad. Nobody is making you join it.

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Originally Posted by rswfire

The problem here is that the elitists of FFXIV have no idea just how ignorant and unskilled they really are compared to those that play EvE! I'm far more irritated by elitists in FF than I am Eve, because in FF, everything is handed to them on a silver platter. They haven't the slightest clue what it means to actually work hard for something or use their intellect. They have zero patience and they're intolerant. Even the worst that Eve has to offer is better than what the elitists here think they have to offer.

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So if everything is handed to you on a silver platter, why don't you have everything? =o

And for that matter, if everything is sooo easy, why is it unreasonable or elitist to ask for these things in a party? If it takes you so little time and effort, then why are you so lazy that you can't equip yourself properly instead of whining about it on the forums?

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Originally Posted by rswfire

I've no interest in educating you. Sorry if my comments offend you, but it's my reasonable opinion based on a plethora of factors. I will leave it at that in the interests of civility (meaning this conversation has nowhere to go but down.)

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"This game is so easy and endgame is handed to you."
"I don't have endgame gear people require, but you're too stupid and pleeb to understand why so I'll just blame other people and whine."

Solid reasoning there buddy.

I have a question. What the hell do you need a photo ID for?

Around 90% of the people I've met and the pugs I've had so far have been great, and I've nearly got full dl and half way through relic quest.
The few bad pugs I've had have just been bad because they are under geared or inexperienced and normally just give up after realizing that fact without complaining or whining

I see those "elitists" in shout asking for a full dl relic+1 team for cm, yea.
But I also see shouts for full story mode with cut scenes.
Perhaps less frequently than the former but it's to be expected when you consider the amount of times people have to run it to gear up.

You shouldn't pay too much attention to what you hear on forums and judge by your own experiences, while keeping in mind that people often respond to how you act, and will pick up on a positive attitude.

I stopped reading at AK and WP requiring darklight. Not even CM and Praetorium require it.

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Originally Posted by Eclair_Xysha

I have a question. What the hell do you need a photo ID for?

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I actually require my party members to send me a copy of their drivers license for praetorium. If they don't, then they need to walk through the section where you'd normally be riding the magitech. Lore aside, I don't want to get banned for not doing the dungeon "properly", and allowing unlicensed people to take control of heavy machinery is surely something some people around here would report me for.

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Originally Posted by AridElf

I stopped reading at AK and WP requiring darklight. Not even CM and Praetorium require it.

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Like I said before in another post, that was what people told me. I needed at least two or three DL pieces before I could take on WP and AK and have a chance of survival, along with either the GC weapon or the Ifrit weapon. It might be different for every server. Who knows. But this is my experience from the server I'm currently playing on.

SE is already planning on gear score for Duty finder, this should help prevent people from being abused because they entered content that they were undergeared for. If people continue to be verbally abused by speedrunners after MVP rating is patched in, I can only imagine that their next move is to somehow stop it from being possible [like the dark devices nerf], or make it inefficient to speedrun because merely expecting people to be civil to others is apparently out of the question.

This is why we can't have nice things..

I don't see the "Elitism" here as any different from other games. Hey I recall the "you will be inspected, must have gear score, will be questioned on tactics ..etc etc" from my Wow days. From what I've seen (commonly at Revenant's Toll), it's the same gushings.

But, I do think the current game content exacerbates this.

At present there is limited end content. Ok we can all go and level other jobs with fate/leve grinding, but sooner or later you are faced with the end game. And this channels you down an extremely restricted route. Sure other games put you down routes - but not so narrow as this one. That's in part because ARR is new, whereas the likes of say Rift + Wow have been expanding their endgame variety for years.

But it's also in part to the way SE have designed the single path story quest. This escalates in difficulty - as it should when people lvl up - to a point. But a never ending increase in difficulty leads to a tighter and tighter band of people who will be able to do this. Already we have seen "selling Titan HM..." Purely because they know you have to do this, for the story, for the weapon.

So, we have a funneling end game format leading to an extremely narrow progress channel. Players who have been dedicating a lot of their time to this will want to group with similar people.

That is the current state of the game. Wider end content, with more ways to escalate your character are not available yet. But it can be a brick wall for newly leveled people who are continually faced with "must have +1 relic, must have experience-with the obvious thought of how can you get these without groups inviting you.

Join a friendly FC I hear-good on paper - but in the actual game? You'll find a lot of FC's now have organised raiding teams, whilst they are happy to have you as a member to boost numbers, they will be extremely disinclined to knock out one of their established group members to make way for a new member - it just doesn't happen.

So you have the "elitists". You do in all games - but it's not helped by the current restrictive 'have to' end game structure of this game.

The definition of an elitist to me is someone who keeps whining about how easy everything is, and just wants to get the difficulty ramped up to next to impossible so they can laugh about it and then go back to WoW talking about how them and their leet buddies ruined another MMO..

Seems crazy huh? Its not.. I take some solace in the fact that the forums require an active account to access.

Then the other kind of elitist, the forum rat, they are just like the first type but they actually care about the game and just have misguided views on gaming..

They achieve virtual rewards and trophies to satisfy the lack of self worth they have, to them its more than a game, its damn near a job..

They try to get things ramped up too, and usually succeed due to flaming anyone who says the games too hard. Thing is all they do is make devs institute dumb mechanics to create the illusion of difficulty, partly their fault, partly the devs..

And another game is ruined..

/rant over

If I am pugging something and join a pick up group in RT which isn't very often. I would rather go with someone that is requiring Relic+1 and full darklight+ because that means the run will go faster. I had an AK pug where people didn't have relic or any darklight and it took 60 min. Now then my average FC AK run is about 25 min. When you can have undergeared people it can make a run take 3 or 4 times as long as a run with geared people would take.

Some people want efficiency and to farm tombs as fast as possible which requires a high gear level. If this isn't for you then don't join those groups. But I would be perfectly happy joining a group that had a high gear level requirement.

OP get a couple of friends to join and play this game together, then start yelling in Rev Toll to get a couple of people together that specifically suit your needs. Oh my god, it's like day and night different.

The reason for the Elitism and Douche Bag is a known fact that it's cross server. There no consequences of what they do because they are anonymous.

Imo, people can ask for any kind of requirements when building their pre-built runs. Some people want DL + Relic people not neccesarilly because they think it's needed, but because they emphazise speed of the run, and want to make the run as fast as possible. In that respect, it's fair game.

However, it's completely unreasonable to expect the same thing in duty finder, either overgeared people or, yes, people expecting a flawless speedrun. You should not expect nor feel entitled for either of those things if you use Duty Finder. If you don't like it, do what everybody is doing, and do a pre-built party.

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Originally Posted by MStowastiqVahlshdeh

SE is already planning on gear score for Duty finder, this should help prevent people from being abused because they entered content that they were undergeared for.

/snip

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

At present there is limited end content. Ok we can all go and level other jobs with fate/leve grinding, but sooner or later you are faced with the end game.

/snip

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

So, we have a funneling end game format leading to an extremely narrow progress channel.

/snip

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I really enjoy the way these thread take an intellectual turn for the best. Even I learn a little something about the game/ or community.

Keep the discussion alive or branch off into new ones. This and the way MMOs should be.
It's always, make your decision here and end up there(where every one else is, doing the same 'ol, same 'ol thang).

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If only there was some sandbox mode to FFXIV. Story's should branch off like discussions of life. Not everyone plays the game the same way, not everyone ends up with the same fate. ARRs story need a new dimension, a 4th dimension.

Hmm, yesterday i inv a healer, for WP, or something...and he said: where is everyone? come here, and show me relics, if you cant show relic, i'm leaving, and blacklisting.
Is it these kind of ppl that are driving the community, you mean? yah...no...

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Originally Posted by MStowastiqVahlshdeh

SE is already planning on gear score for Duty finder, this should help prevent people from being abused because they entered content that they were undergeared for. If people continue to be verbally abused by speedrunners after MVP rating is patched in, I can only imagine that their next move is to somehow stop it from being possible [like the dark devices nerf], or make it inefficient to speedrun because merely expecting people to be civil to others is apparently out of the question.

This is why we can't have nice things..

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and apparently ppl cleared Titan, in AF gear, so...unless you actively avoid using AF, and actively choose something shittier, you're not going to be undergeared...
DL wep from WP, and AF, or gear from WP, is ok for Titan (if you know what you're doing)
Not even DL/ crafted 70 stuff, can compensate for lack of skill; though other players can compensate somewhat for your lack of skill, with good use of buffs/heals.
If you got 3k+ hp, you're good to go. If you can't clear it with that, you wont clear it with 4k either.
You need the skill to carry yourself, or a skilled group to carry you :)
Anyways, so yah....gear check for WP/CM is at the most going to be AF, and maybe iLv 45 wep, so nothing much going to change; elitists still going to rage about ppl not having relic, DL for AK/WP/CM. And soon they are going to rage about ppl not being full Allagan for tam-tara.

wait until you're geared enough and play with the other geared players.

then jump into a DF group with 3 undergeared players to see the difference, you'll feel the pain. AK doesn't require DL gears but it will be harder if you don't have, especially if 2-3 party members are undergeared.

If games didn't promote elitism it wouldn't be here...

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Originally Posted by DanteMog

If games didn't promote elitism it wouldn't be here...

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I disagree, its too easy to blame the game, the people began acting like they were superior, and game designers began catering to those people because they are the loudest voices. People who like the game aren't here to defend it from the leets cause they are actually playing the game and not whining in the forums about how bored they are..

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

I actually require my party members to send me a copy of their drivers license for praetorium. If they don't, then they need to walk through the section where you'd normally be riding the magitech. Lore aside, I don't want to get banned for not doing the dungeon "properly", and allowing unlicensed people to take control of heavy machinery is surely something some people around here would report me for.

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You're kidding right....? I never heard of this before for any MMO and/or game. I'm currently actually stuck at Praetorium because DF just seriously takes too long to que up.
Can you (or someone) enlighten me as to why?